10-6-23 | Bob from TN
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Email Sent To: Christopher J. E. Johnson Date: Oct 6, 2023 [creationliberty.com] |
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Bob from Tennessee:
I am using parts and arguments from this to make my own study and came across this, as I am going to an apostate Southern Baptist church, because there is nothing much else available. The study linked below will be forwarded to the pastor, currently has been forwarded to the teacher (my personal friend) of the Sunday morning Bible study, where we have "Dr. __________"
and "Scholar _______________________", etc., retired college professors, and my friend is taken in by them. Next lunch, I will tell him it will be my turn to correct them, after he reads completely what I wrote, part of which is now here:
https://christs-disciples.org/worldly-knowledge.php
If he says no (he likes to appease, while they divide) then I will not return to that study.
I grew up in CT, born in NYC. Many, many Greeks there, Greek diners, and I went to the Greek Festival at the Orthodox Church in Waterbury, CT one summer about five years ago. Asked people FROM GREECE if they spoke, read, understood Koine Greek. No. Classical Greek only. Asked my friends' parents same thing. Same answer. Booth after booth. Same answer. These commentary and concordance authors are lying.
My church will NOT appreciate my study, and correction, however loving it will be. I have kept my silence, held my tongue. Soon, not any more.
Thank the Lord Jesus Christ, not me.
An apostate, by definition, is someone who has abandoned the church. I don't understand your situation, but it's curious why you say you are "going to" an apostate church, when, first of all, no one can "go to church" according to Scripture, and secondly, if it's apostate, it's not a church. That was confusing to me.
Yeah, that confuses me too. Why would you go to a place (according to your testimony, i.e. it is "apostate") that you are going to hear apostate, leavened doctrine, and fill your mind with it? I don't understand that. It's like a sheep saying that he's going to go into the mud pit with the pigs because "there is nothing much else available."
and "Scholar _______________________", etc., retired college professors, and my friend is taken in by them. Next lunch, I will tell him it will be my turn to correct them, after he reads completely what I wrote, part of which is now here:
https://christs-disciples.org/worldly-knowledge.php
If he says no (he likes to appease, while they divide) then I will not return to that study.
Okay. The next paragraph seems like you changed the subject from this one, so is there something you wanted me to do with this information? I mean... I'm getting more confused as this continues.
Perhaps. Some people actually study Koine Greek, but it's extremely rare, and most (if not all) those who work on those commentaries and concordances do not have anything else but an "Intro" course (if that), which doesn't teach them much of anything. The excuse is to refer to the "Septuagint," even though there is no proper manuscript evidence to support its existence.
Alright. Have a great day.
Thank the Lord Jesus Christ, not me.
An apostate, by definition, is someone who has abandoned the church. I don't understand your situation, but it's curious why you say you are "going to" an apostate church, when, first of all, no one can "go to church" according to Scripture, and secondly, if it's apostate, it's not a church. That was confusing to me.
"women's prayer groups" become (behind their backs, especially mine), "women's airing their side of the story" groups.
When they pray out loud, their "god" answers them, but it is "From GOD!"
Yeah, that confuses me too. Why would you go to a place (according to your testimony, i.e. it is "apostate") that you are going to hear apostate, leavened doctrine, and fill your mind with it? I don't understand that. It's like a sheep saying that he's going to go into the mud pit with the pigs because "there is nothing much else available."
Okay. The next paragraph seems like you changed the subject from this one, so is there something you wanted me to do with this information? I mean... I'm getting more confused as this continues.
Often, when I do things like this correction, I wait. Especially when I am sitting there, in abject pain (heartbroken), I give them time, and enough rope to hang themselves. I then write a study, send it to the teacher, and tell them we will discuss it. I will give them a chance to either allow me to correct these people or he does. If neither, I am gone. I already corrected another old Pharisee in another class when he got the "gap theory" and "firmament" and the "ark, which was a box shape" wrong which he drew on a white board. He did not like it, but no one was correcting him, acting like he was giving them the truth. I did not hesitate. This was before the wife left.
Creation/Evolution is how I got saved; been my main ministry since 1987. You cannot tell people lies on that subject and just get away from me. I knew David Fasold personally, before he died. Met with him many times. It is a boat, not a shoe box. Well, I corrected him on that; he listened.
Perhaps. Some people actually study Koine Greek, but it's extremely rare, and most (if not all) those who work on those commentaries and concordances do not have anything else but an "Intro" course (if that), which doesn't teach them much of anything. The excuse is to refer to the "Septuagint," even though there is no proper manuscript evidence to support its existence.
I hate to hear that about your wife, and sadly, that is a story far too common among the men I know. Most of my friends in our church have had their wives backstab them and leave.
That is something I used to believe could happen to someone because of the leavened influence Kent Hovind had on me, but after the Lord freed me from that brainwashing and moved me into study of the Scriptures on my own, I now understand it is not the path to salvation. No one gets saved through being exposed to creation materials. They get saved by the hearing of the law.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
-Galatians 3:23-25
And I wrote this so I wouldn't have to have these fruitless debates with churchgoers anymore because I don't want to preach to those who are prideful and sanctimonious, in which they are unwilling to hear, but rather, I would preach to those who have been brought low. Jesus did not spend all his time with Pharisees... He just rebuked them and moved on to spend time with the poor and needy. It's pointless to debate details with churchgoers who have not known repentance for the remission of sins; they need to hear the Gospel of Salvation just like everyone else, but if they are lifted up in the pride of their hearts and will not hear the Gospel of Salvation, then there is no point in continuing debate with them, except for selfish reasons... which is what you told me is the reason for your continued visits; meaning that, in reality, you aren't there for them; you're there for yourself, and it's not doing you any good.
What you choose to do is up to you. Have a great day.
It is go for some fellowship for now. I have no hopes of contributing much. I do not debate or argue. I teach, my spiritual gift. If they do not want o heara, I move on. But in the area I am at currently, there is no place to move on to. It is horrible. Another reason to move on.
Six Weeks Later - Nov 21, 2023 - Bob wrote another letter...
https://www.christs-disciples.org/testimony.php
My Testimony
by Robert Zuvich
I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1960, moved to Connecticut after one year and grew up on a farm, catching frogs, salamanders, snakes, butterflies, etc. in the local ponds and streams. I grew up with a love of creation ("Mother Nature", as the school put it). I entered the school system right around the time that evolution was being taught as a fact (after the 1963 removal of prayer). I hear that they taught it as a fact before that, but I just noticed it as being militant. It destroyed my faith in God since I was taught that being as good little Catholic boy meant not questioning authority. By the time I was an adult, I was ready to teach it as fact to my kids. I was working in Production at Teledyne Microelectronics in Culver City where I met a man named Sergio Sanchez. There were some friends of mine in the test area who got saved and were changing. They kept inviting me to go to Bible study, and I kept declining. Anyways, this Sergio guy was a dangerous man. "Whatever you do", they said, "don't ask him a question-because he has an answer!" I was not actually intending to ask him a question, but was rather commenting on an article in the Los Angeles Times about the discovery of some saber-toothed tigers recently found in the La Brea tar pits. He asked me, "Do you believe in evolution?" I thought that, since everyone on the planet did, this was the stupidest question ever asked of me, and my respect for Sergio then dropped below that of a Russian Olympic judge of an American athlete in the 1976 Olympics. He said nothing more to me, but handed me four books:
What Is Creation Science? by Dr. Henry M. Morris
Scientific Creationism, by Dr. Henry M. Morris
The Twilight of Evolution, by Dr. Henry M. Morris
The Rise of the Evolution Fraud, by Malcolm Bowden
I read them innocently and honestly, not knowing what to expect-in fact not expecting anything at all, and not knowing anything about "creation science". Day by day, everything I believed in was torn to shreds and there was nothing I could do, since the authors were not touting their beliefs, but rather quoting from my favorite scientists! Anyway, the last book The Rise of the Evolution Fraud, has a page at the back which reads,
"Beneath our feet lie the millions of fossils of extinct animals and men. It is a silent witness to a time when mankind became so degenerate that finally it was virtually wiped out in one great cataclysmic flood. Fearful though this thought may be, we can take some comfort from the fact that we have been promised that his will never happen again."
Set apart from the paragraph in big bold letters was this final grim warning,
"Next time it will be by fire!"
This was my moment of conversion. I was petrified like a fossil and suddenly felt very uncomfortable. I asked whoever it was that created all of this to please do anything in His power to prevent me from going through this fire, which I somehow understood was eternal hell (although the author was merely speaking only of the end of the world). I did not even know what I had done, what it meant or anything. I did not even tell anyone, as I did not know what to say. I started to read an old King James Bible in the house-and understood it for the first time! Eventually, I grew in the Lord, attended church and then was introduced to and got into the newer "versions". I collected them like some people collect stamps.
This was halted when a friend of mine challenged me to investigate them for myself, after which I became King James only. I have never regretted either decision.
Your testimony just proved my point. Have you read my book? It's not very long:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell
Have you read my studies on my web site? https://christs-disciples.org/
You will not.
In 37 years, you are by FAR, very far, the strangest "Christian" I have ever met. My testimony got an "A" in three Bible classes Dr. Jackson, Dr. Gordon, Dr. Goddard, at college. A short and a long version. I should have known when you "were confused" by everything I said, the exact opposite, completely unlike the thousands to who I have spoken the Gospel, taught before congregations and villages on three continents.
(Romans 10:9-10)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
You Sir, are why people in Baptist churches are cold, unwelcoming and make people who visit one time turn to cults like JWs, Mormonism, and R.C.C.ism. I guess you even wear a Sadduccees and Pharisees outfit (suit, jacket, tie) and pound the pulpit for an hour, screaming at the people loudly, thinking that this makes you more spiritual than them. I wear a smelly, fishy tunic like Jesus and the disciples. No legalism. I go to villages where missionaries leave with no fruit to preach the gospel with kids and chickens and goats running around every where. I do not need your permission nor approval of my testimony to do so. Jesus knows me. I know Him. All I need.
(Titus 3:10 [AKJV/PCE])
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
This is your first admonishment. Humble yourself. "You ain't all that.", as they say in the south. You desperately need it.
I AM saved. I do not need, nor wish, to ever meet your "standard" for that or anything else. Nor should anyone. The mere fact that you think anyone should even try to means you need to step down from whatever 'ministry" you think you do. You are too arrogant. I owe you no time, no effort, no explanations. It is a waste.
Good bye.
His, (The Saviour, the LORD Jesus Christ)
Bob
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
-Galatians 4:16
railer: one who scoffs, insults, censures or reproaches with opprobrious language
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
-1 Corinthians 5:11
(Matthew 7:23 [AKJV/PCE])
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And I would argue the very, very exact same for you. I have evidence you learned how to quote Scripture, but not live by it, nor understand it, just use it to rail at anyone trying to correct your nastiness.
You do not have to worry. We will not be keeping company. IF you need studies, they are on my site.
https://christs-disciples.org/
Since you also need to learn the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ, it is there also.
https://christs-disciples.org/gospel.php
Since you are so smart, there is a study just for you, and the other railers:
https://christs-disciples.org/worldly-knowledge.php
IN 37 years of being saved and in ministry, not one time have I have ever met such a confused and "YOU ARE NOT SAVED!:" person, not even in IFB College.. When trying to be corrected, you do not even listen or read. I corrected you once, that I am saved BY the Blood of the Lamb, the LORD Jesus Christ, and that journey started through knocking out the edifice of false science (evolutionism) I admonished you once, and now became YOUR enemy. Jesus will say to you one day, You should understand these things, if you were saved and not religious. If you wish to learn Scripture, get out of that self-righteousness cult, then I can help. I teach the Word of God to those who are willing tol earn, not the ones who think they know every thing and think no one but those who say the right words to them are saved, based upon their own standard.
When corrected, you cannot be corrected but use your dull sword. Mine is sharp and convicts me and you of sin. In all my years, mostly atheists, agnostics, muslims and RCCers were railers. Then there is you. The ultimate mocker, railer. And you.
(Titus 3:10 [AKJV/PCE])
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
#1 Get saved.
#2 Get a teachable spirit
That was your last admonition. You are rejected.
"You never knew me?! Excuse me?! I got an 'A' in Testimonies 101! You don't have a PhD!"
Ha ha ha ha! I just don't understand some people.
On one hand, he tells me that he was converted by reading the books of authors who were commentating on the Word of God. He then tells me that he won't read my book because he only reads the Word of God, not commentators on the Word of God.
The hypocrisy is staggering, and he can't see the forest for the trees.
I was not going to wasting my time responding to him any further. He had no intention of having a peaceful, reasonable conversation, which is why I was confused why he was writing to me in the first place. He never did tell me why. To this day, I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish.
Isn't it amazing how many churchgoers there are out there who have NO interest in discussing the Gospel of Salvation in Christ?
The sad part is that I NEVER said he wasn't saved. In fact, I just didn't know one way or another. All I wanted him to do was hear the Gospel of Salvation and see how he would respond. He didn't even want to see it, and started in on his prideful railing with church-ianity phrases sprinkled on top, and unbeknownst to him, that told me pretty much everything I needed to know.
I still don't know if he's saved or not, but I'm leaning pretty heavily towards "No" because of his last couple of letters. There does not seem to be any reflection of a humble heart of repentance. Where's the grace? Where's the understanding? Where's the patience?
As we know, God does not give His grace to the proud of heart.
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
-James 4:6
I later visted his website, and at the time, he offered his explanation for the Gospel of Salvation:
...You are an unrighteous sinner, separated from your Creator, a Holy and Just God by your sin(s)and sin nature
Sin leads to death
You are deserving of eternal punishment in a fiery hell after a certain death
Therefore, you need to get saved from that hell
You cannot save yourself by works, "being good", religion, etc. or by anything else or anyone else
Jesus Christ, the God-Man, came down from Heaven in the flesh to die on a Roman Cross for your sin(s)
You simply have to believe in Jesus Christ who died for your sins and that God promised he will forgive all of your sins
https://www.christs-disciples.org/gospel.php
As you can see, there's no repentance. That was my point. I suspected there was something wrong with his understanding of salvation in Scripture, and visiting his website confirmed that for me.
But I'm sure he just said all those hateful and railing things for Jesus, right?
He talks of "sin nature," but doesn't even give an example of what sin looks like. Ergo, there is no preaching of the law to sinners so they would come to repentance. His explanation presents a "problem" to the reader that, even if the reader accepts as a problem without knowing what it means, he will "believe in Jesus" and think he solved the alleged "problem" without ever being born again in Christ.
In the end, Bob thinks he changed his mind by the power of his own intellect, not by the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and as so often happens, I become a verbal punching bag so they can justify their false ideology.
To quote William Booth, 19th century founder of the Salvation Army:
"I am of the opinion that thechief dangers which confront the coming century [i.e. 20th-21st century]will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell. "
-William Booth, quoted in The Homiletic Review: An International Magazine of Religion, Theology and Philosophy, Religious Newspaper Agency, Vol. 44, 1902, p. 382, [University of Michigan]
He hit the nail right on the head.
Our church had a discussion about this one if you want to watch the video on it:
Reader Discussion
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This question sums up the interaction to a T as furious as he defends himself, it comes across as fear. He's afraid of the truth, as when given it, what does he do? Does it search it out like the Bereans? No, he immediately rejects the very thought that he could be wrong because that would be too grievous. Bob is the near textbook example of someone who went to seminary, studied the Word for years, done all these amazing things, but has zero evidence for repentance which renders all of that meaningless.
I still find it funny he never even thought that he could join you for fellowship. He kept going on about moving on from the apostate church, but at no point ever ask if he could join you. Although, since he never explained why he was emailing you, I believe he was only a new time listener as his comments about you being a Baptist reveal he doesn't actually know much about what you teach.
I think he went through a couple articles, specifically ones about the Greek scam or something like it and immediately assumed you would be 100% on board with everything he said. As soon as you ignored his impressive resume and pointed out flaws in his words, he certainly changed his tune. He started as outgoing, before becoming a little fearful in his language before flying into a rage. Why? You weren't playing the churchianity game like everyone else and he didn't know how to respond. I pray he comes to repentance because that's all we can do at this point as Bob will only listen to himself.
"Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."
-Mat 15:12-13
Why didn't Jesus care about their status and feelings?