Hello (WOG aka Jeff Thread)

[Wog]

Hello everyone, I'm glad to have found a place with people who seem to want to understand God's Word, and not other men's interpretations thereof. Its been a couple years now I've been studying hard, and meditating day and night, and praying to God.  Though lukewarm would be too generous to describe most believers I've encountered, i won't go any further than that, except to say that it is no surprise most people view Christianity negatively.

As far as my story, my whole family has turned against me and are working with my ex wife to keep me from my daughter, for basically no reason (not to say i didn't contribute to the mess at all, i did, being the babe that i was and somewhat still am). I've been living out of my truck since last july, and (having never been to jail before) have gone to jail twice since coming to the Lord, both times in an exceedingly unjust manner, but luckily only 52 days in total so not horrific.  Its my understanding that this is all a good thing, and part of the fiery trial which is to be expected.  I'm not looking for sympathy with all of this, the Lord has kept me strong and I'm becoming more and more refined; as i understand the bible, sufferings seem to be a component of proving our faith, so i thought it good to mention them.  Satan is hard at work, though to be fair i made it easy for him at first; less and less so as time goes on. I believe God gave me a vision and I've been shown that it all works out eventually, until then i just keep studying scripture and trying not to give the devil place.

I hope you guys here are sincere, it gets old time and time again thinking I found a good pastor/people only to realize after some time that they too are deceived (kent hovind, steven anderson, etc; in addition to all the physical churches ive been to, one pastor preferring to talk about bitcoin over the questions i had about scripture, another telling me "you better watch yourself," i think because of second hand gossip that i had criticized him, even though it was as much a compliment as criticism).  I've long since given up trying to find a church, praying to God that he would lead me to a good pastor and fellow believers, though he has been shepherding me well.

I look forward to discussions, learning, and edification, to the extent that it can occur in an online setting; if anyone lives near Gainesville, FL i would look forward to meeting up regularly for fellowship. I'm mobile and enjoy driving so anywhere within a couple hours id be willing to make the trek as often as my schedule permits to learn/study/talk/fellowship.

Edit: for the guy expecting that repentance be mentioned in other peoples introductions, yes i have repented (i have also repented of believing repentance is turning from sin rather than regret/remorse/sorrow), but i had repented even without understanding what repentance was. Not sure if demanding an acknowledgement of repentance is the best welcome but to each his own.

[Kenneth Winslow]

Good evening Jeff,
I'm glad you're here. It's good to see that you seem to have a proper understanding of repentance.
How did you find us? I found this group when I stumbled across one of the teachings on YouTube.

I see your user name is "Wog". Were you in the Navy?

[Wog]

Technically i was in the Navy I suppose, but more specifically the Marine Corps, department of the Navy. 

Wog is short for Woghomaos, a name that came to me early on in my walk trying to understand/define my purpose in life  it is an acronym of Warrior of God, Helper of Man, Agitator of Souls.

I found this website/ministry when researching the 501c3 debate; i had held the same stance but didn't understand the topic well enough to articulate my problems with it to someone else who was wanting to start a non-profit for homeless people. I watched a few of his videos and liked his style and understanding/interpretation of scripture.

[Jeanne]

Hi Jeff, and welcome to the forum!

I suppose I should say that one of the reasons we ask people about repentance is that a lot of people come here claiming to be Christians when they really aren't, as you've obviously noticed from the number of church buildings you've been to. It just saves time to know where a person stands up front so we know who we're talking to. A lot of false converts come here just to argue or to defend their pet sins/false doctrines and we like to know who to watch out for. That's why we ask for a testimony.

I, too, hope you find what you're looking for here. We all try to learn from each other.

[Wog]

Yes i understand, im just not sure if asking if they've repented is the best test for legitimacy.  Being online and all i think the only way may be to just get to know their doctrine, and willingness to change their doctrine when presented with appropriate scripture.

Im not saying it should definitely not be done, it just seems a bit odd and unwelcoming.

[Timothy]

Edit: for the guy expecting that repentance be mentioned in other peoples introductions, yes i have repented (i have also repented of believing repentance is turning from sin rather than regret/remorse/sorrow), but i had repented even without understanding what repentance was. Not sure if demanding an acknowledgement of repentance is the best welcome but to each his own.

I assume I'm "that guy" lol. You don't have to be afraid to call me out by name if you have a problem with what I've said here. It's odd to me why a former Marine needs to hide because I'm not that scary, or whoever else it is you're talking about. Also your introduction is viewable to the public. Not everyone is going to know who or what you are talking about if you don't specify anything, so keep that in mind.

I also find it odd about that last paragraph where you put it in as an 'Edit' meaning that wasn't part of your original introduction. You read some other posts here and added that in after you read what I, or someone else, had said and you instantly got defensive about the topic on repentance. I'm not the best and catching things like that, but what you said actually tells me more than you may think, but right now I can only assume.

Not sure if demanding an acknowledgement of repentance is the best welcome but to each his own.

I may not be the most welcoming person here, but I don't see the issue with asking questions to get to know someone better after they've introduced themselves. Isn't that what people generally do anyway when they meet someone? Why would you have an issue with that specifically about the topic of repentance?

People don't necessarily need to include the word 'repentance' in their introduction. Just like in the Bible, people can express that repentance in their salvation testimony without using the word itself. Just have to take whatever is said in it's context and if enough details are given, it's usually not too hard to see. When I see that, then I don't have to ask about it.

Yes i understand, im just not sure if asking if they've repented is the best test for legitimacy.

This tells me you don't think repentance is important to salvation. What do you think of repentance when it comes to salvation? By the way, I may have asked you about repentance even if you didn't mention it and if nobody else beat me to it. But since you did mention it, now I'm even more interested to know what you think of it (so it's your fault I'm asking lol).

I'm actually at work right now and need to get back to it. I don't say much but sometimes when I actually do want to say something, it's when I'm busy or at work. Please be patient if I don't respond quickly.

[Wog]

I do think repentance is a neccesarry component to receiving forgiveness and thus neccesarry for salvation.  Additionally, its one of if not the most common threads throughout the whole bible, and i weigh it as heavily as the bible does, so...heavily.

I don't think you absolutely shouldn't do it, (that is, to request an acknowledgement of repentance) but it seemed to me like unless it was specifically stated, you were asking for it.  To me, it would be more appropriate to wait until you see an indicator of a lack of repentance, before asking if they have.

The reason i say this is because the tests set forth in scripture are not to ask the individual if they have repented but rather if they can say Jesus is the Lord, and if they confess that Jesus is come in the flesh. I don't know if these tests can be "administered" properly in an online setting or not, but those are the tests i know of from scripture.

Additionally, i think its better to determine a persons legitimacy based on their thinking/beliefs as evidenced in what they say, and to expect an acknowledgement of repentance so soon after meeting a person, to me, seems unwelcoming.  I think it would make more sense to engage them in conversation for a while and then, if there are doubts, ask them if they understand what repentance is and if they've experienced that regarding the sins they've committed.

[Wog]

To go a little further with it, i think a good way to accomplish the same goal without coming off the way i perceived it (and maybe i was overly defensive, but i don't think so, i had just seen you expecting that from others so i threw it in pre-emptively), but you could have simply asked what brought them to repentance.

They would either be confused (likely indicating a lack of repentance or lack of understanding as to what repentance is), or they would tell you how it happened.  For me, after trying to be a "good boy" of my own accord for about a year, i ended up having sex with a pregnant girl, and wanting her for myself, not no subtly told her of my approval of abortion, thinking that if she did so, i could have her to myself (she had said she hated her boyfriend but the baby kept her tied to him).

Upon realizing how disgusting it was for me to say/do that, and then looking back on other instances of my behaviour during that year of trying to be a good boy, i could no longer deny that i was a scumbag, what i now understand as being a sinner.  I did my fair share of crying and grumbling, and asked the Lord to forgive me, and have done so continually since then. He has shown me in no uncertain terms that i am a sinner worthy of death, and i couldn't be more thankful that He has taken me off of the path i was on and called me to the path of righteousness and eternal life.

[creationliberty]

I need to speak up here because I'm seeing some contradictions. Based on Jeff's sincere introduction post, in combination with his statement...
"the tests set forth in scripture are not to ask the individual if they have repented but rather if they can say Jesus is the Lord, and if they confess that Jesus is come in the flesh"
... I would highly, highly recommend, the next time you get a chance, to study this:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell
Because the method you suggested is not what is said to be the test of legitimacy in Scripture. Please don't misunderstand; I already know the verses you're going to refer to if you want to argue that point, and I assure you, if you want to bring them up, I will show you the problem with what you're saying. (I'll leave it to you if you want to discuss it.) The other problem is that what you suggested was NOT the method Jesus Himself used, and if you study the link above, you will quickly find out that Jesus turned away many who said "Jesus is Lord."

The next contradiction I'm seeing is this:
"Not sure if demanding an acknowledgement of repentance is the best welcome but to each his own."
Then:
"Being online and all i think the only way may be to just get to know their doctrine, and willingness to change their doctrine when presented with appropriate scripture."
The problem here is that repentance IS doctrine. It seems like you're presenting a disconnect between repentance and the foundation of the Christian faith. I'm actually kind of surprised by this because your introduction seemed more genuine than most, and that you at least expressed that you had understanding of the matter.
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
-Luke 24:47
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
-Mark 1:14-15
So what's confusing me is why you believe that godly sorrow of wrongdoing (i.e. repentance) is not a topic of importance concerning foundational Biblical doctrine, especially that of salvation? If you connect your posts together, that's the conclusion you've drawn for us so far. Perhaps part of the disconnect is that you do not believe that a new member's lack of repentance is seen in their introduction when we ask them those questions; could that be the case? I'm not sure.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:14

I would have to guess, based on your bold statements, you must have some experience in running an online Christian forum, otherwise, I do not see a reason that you would come here and almost immediately tell us that you know better how to run things than we do, despite the experience we have gained over the past few years in speaking to hundreds of people on this forum. So would you please share with us your extensive experience in creating and/or managing a Christian forum online? I think that might help clear up some of the confusion so we can learn better what we ought to do.

[Wog]

"So what's confusing me is why you believe that godly sorrow of wrongdoing (i.e. repentance) is not a topic of importance concerning foundational Biblical doctrine, especially that of salvation? If you connect your posts together, that's the conclusion you've drawn for us so far."

I think its possible you only skimmed my posts, because I did state that i agree with you guys on this.

As a whole, i think there is much less disagreement between us than would be indicated by your reply.

To state more clearly what i was getting at, i do not see a problem with ensuring genuine repentance, rather i think it could be done differently.  By this mean that how something is said is equally important to what is said, and ill throw in as well, when it is said.

Ill leave it at that because i don't want to turn this into something it doesn't need to be. Ill just say that as a newcomer, it was somewhat offputting to me that specific acknowledgement of repentance was being brought out so early after someone introduced themselves. I hope that makes sense.

[Jeanne]

As Chris stated, we've dealt with hundreds of people who have come and gone on this forum over the years and we've gotten to the point where we can usually tell when something seems to be 'off' about a person in their introduction. That's usually when/why we ask them about repentance. There have also been times where a person will post an introduction and then immediately start another thread elsewhere on the forum where they want to argue about something. That will also trigger questions about repentance on their introductory posts.

Speaking strictly for myself, I probably would not have asked you about repentance if it wasn't for the edit you did, either, because you did seem genuine. As it is now, though, you have already thrown up a defensive wall so I'm not quite as willing to trust you as I might have been otherwise; I'm wondering why you would get so defensive about us asking about something so crucial and fundamental to salvation.

I hope you'll stick around and that we can have some productive discussions but I have to admit I'm not going to hold my breath at this point.

[creationliberty]

I think its possible you only skimmed my posts, because I did state that i agree with you guys on this.

No, I read your acknowledgment of it. I read all of your posts. The problem is that you're now not seeing the philosophy behind what you wrote. On the one hand you believe it is best that we question whether a person claiming to be a Christian believes on Jesus (i.e. whether or not "Jesus is Lord"), and thus, you are putting heavy important on faith in Christ, which is good. (Btw, the fact that they put "Christian" as their belief on their profile is enough to acknowledge that they claim to believe on Jesus.) However, you are not putting the same weight on the doctrine of repentance, and the only reason that could be is because you think that is a lesser doctrine that does not need to be addressed and that it causes controversy, and because you saw the controversy over it, and were turned off by it (which reminds me a lot of Mat 13:21), it shows me that you do not understand the importance of it, as you have claimed; therefore, I pointed out the contradiction, showing the Scripture to point out Christ's importance of that doctrine. I'll give you another example:
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
-Luke 13:3
So here, we have Jesus Christ putting a heavy emphasis on repentance with people he had just met, but Jeff "thinks" (according to his own reasoning, not Scriptural reasoning) that it should not be addressed because it makes him uncomfortable. I'm not seeing the like-mindedness yet, nor am I seeing the "willingness to change their doctrine when presented with appropriate scripture."

Again, if you want to learn the Scriptural reasons for these things, and the foundation for understanding, then stop looking over 501c3 teachings and look over this:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell

As a whole, i think there is much less disagreement between us than would be indicated by your reply.

That's why I was giving you an opportunity to clarify what you said, and I've got to say, based on your response, it looks like you chose to bark and run, rather than take a stand and be accountable for your words. I will tell you straight-forward; we Christians here on this forum don't get along well with people who do that.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
-Mat 12:36

To state more clearly what i was getting at, i do not see a problem with ensuring genuine repentance, rather i think it could be done differently.  By this mean that how something is said is equally important to what is said, and ill throw in as well, when it is said.

So are you going to share your experience in creating and managing an online Christian forum? Did you just skip over that, or did you skim through what I wrote? Or are you just going to state a vague opinion with no information and expect everyone to follow your feelings? Or... do you believe it might be prudent to first ask us WHY we are doing these, instead of just assuming whatever you please based on how it makes you feel?
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
-Pro 28:26

Ill leave it at that because i don't want to turn this into something it doesn't need to be.

Okay, that's fine. If you don't want to answer for what you have said, you don't have to; I don't want to force anyone to do something they are not comfortable with, but in the future, if you are not willing to be held accountable for what you say, then keep your vague opinions and feelings to yourself because, thus far, you're speaking in ignorance, even though you have not been willing to confess it yet.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
-James 1:26
If you decide in the future to take a stand (like a man - 1Co 16:13) and be accountable for the things you say, I hope you'll come back and join in discussion with us because I'm sure we would enjoy talking with you.

Ill just say that as a newcomer, it was somewhat offputting to me that specific acknowledgement of repentance was being brought out so early after someone introduced themselves. I hope that makes sense.

The only thing that makes sense is how few people understand the doctrine of repentance because, if they understood it, we wouldn't have to ask them about it in the first place. They would be overjoyed and willing to share that information, as many of us here have been. (Another man, Kevin, joined immediately after you did, and he openly and willingly shared his testimony of repentance. See here: http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=927.msg7651#msg7651) What does NOT make sense is barking and running away, which is essentially what you have done, and I don't know how you are accustomed to doing things, but in our church, we're brethren, and we don't treat each other that way.

Repentance is the first thing Christ went out and taught:
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
-Mat 4:17
Therefore, if you find Christ's doctrine "offputting," then this forum is probably not the right place for you, and you will not be able to find much fellowship here. I say that because I don't want you to waste your time. I wish you good health (3Jo 1:2), and have a great day.

[Wog]

Im not sure what you mean when you say ive thrown up a defensive wall. I would love to stick around... though im not sure we'll be able to get past this misunderstanding at the going rate.

What I'm gonna do is leave my phone number, and if it's God's will that i stay, one of you (preferably Chris or Timothy) will give me a call so we can get this worked out without it devolving any further. I meant no offense to anyone, nor was i being defensive except to the extent that Timothy seemed to go on the offense, followed by Chris. And i wasn't offended by either of them, to be clear.

XXX-XXX-XXXX

Im heading home from work and will be showering but if you give it ~2 hours i should be available all night after that.  Id really like to think this can be resolved, particularly if its a phone call versus an online forum. Like i said i look forward to becoming part of a community.

[creationliberty]

I'm sorry, but I edited out your phone number. This forum is open to the public, and I did that for your protection, as there are hundreds of other people who may view this. It's not safe to publish very detailed personal information (such as phone numbers) here.

Also, to answer that point: http://creationliberty.com/faq.php#phonecall

[Wog]

My safety is of the Lord, and i see no danger in posting my phone number.  If you are unwilling to call then that is fine, I did my part to try and achieve peace, I wish i could say the same of you.  You can talk the talk well, but the way you responded to all of this is, well, not so well.

I am available for the evening if you change your mind, the next couple hours would be best since ill be in a mediocre reception area later on.

XXX-XXX-XXXX

[Jeanne]

I hope you guys here are sincere,

We are, but so far, it doesn't look like you are. You find our methods of communicating 'offputting' but you don't say how or why. Yes, I know, you didn't like us asking people about their repentance experience for some reason but again, why do you find that offputting?

i think it could be done differently

Okay, how would you do it? You got your back up about it for some reason I still haven't figured out, even though I told you why we did that... twice, in fact.

You seem to have a problem with the way Chris responded to you, too, which is not a good sign. He explained why he said what he said, too, but you don't seem willing to accept that. The very fact that you got offended at something right off the bat showed me that you were being defensive about something I haven't quite figured out yet.

I'm certainly not going to call you, because as a woman, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do so, but I have no problem talking to you here as a moderator. I don't know if you read that link Chris posted on phone calls, but you need to email him with a specific date and time you would like him to call, and that call would be over Skype rather than a phone call because Chris has limited service in that regard, too. (i.e. phone calls are emergency only.)

[Wog]

Nearly nothing you just said is representative of what happened, and there's a reason i said i would prefer the call be from Chris or Timothy.  It has become abundantly clear that you guys are not aware of the scripture telling us to, as much as be possible, live peaceably with all mean, or the thousands saying to judge righteous judgement.

You say i said this, when i didn't.  You say i didn't say this, when i did. It is clear Satan has been at work in this misunderstanding, and i don't claim to have been perfect, but i doubt any of you would be willing to say the same.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to continue attempting to resolve this via the forum when I'm on a crummy phone typing everything out, which is part of the reason i asked that if it be continued, that it be over the phone.  There is nothing stopping Chris from making the call via skype, nor from telling me that he doesn't have time to call today but would like to do so tomorrow or the next day.

You either walk the walk, and welcome brothers and sisters, and seek to live peaceably, or you don't. Your choice.

[Jeanne]

Well, in order for Chris to call you via Skype, you need to email him your username along with the specific date and time you would like him to call.

[Wog]

If Chris would like to talk he can let me know and we will coordinate it.  It doesn't sound like he is open for peace talks, he seems to have judged me as unworthy.  This is nothing new, i will move along.

Sorry for wasting your time.

[creationliberty]

You can talk the talk well, but the way you responded to all of this is, well, not so well.

There's the arrogance. That's what I was waiting to see. You don't care at all that someone else cares about your safety (i.e. charity), but instead, took that as a shot at me for not having faith in Christ. You can talk a big talk about repentance, but you have not demonstrated that you have a heart of repentance.
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18
That's murmuring Jeff, which is a complaint half-suppressed.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
-1Co 10:10
I'm not putting up with this passive aggressive garbage. If you have something to say, then say it directly instead of tip-toeing around the matter. If you don't want to speak up directly, then keep it to yourself, or I will be happy (at this point) to show you the door, because it's only going to be a matter of time before you start doing that to others here, I will NOT put up with you doing that to them. Make your decision.