JOOP FROM NETHERLANDS:
Chris, I am writing this because I very much want to share some things with you.
Please take the time needed to read this all.
We'll see. It depends on what you say.
About a year ago I joined CLE. I wrote something about myself and the responses were nice and cordial. At the first of July I decided to leave as you know. I was troubled by a lot of things. I will try to explain myself and make things more clear.
First, I made use of the discussion-forums because I like to discuss and sharing thoughts and also learning from other comments. First question I am asking: what is a (healthy) discussion? According to Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Online Edition: a discussion is (capitals added):
Debate; DISQUISITION; the agitation of a point or subject with a view to elicit truth; the TREATING OF A SUBJECT BY ARGUMENT, to clear it of difficulties, and SEPARATE TRUTH FROM FALSEHOOD
Exactly. You, see Chris that was just that what I was doing. Making comments, trying to make some things clear. Trying to separate truth from falsehood. However: it turned out that what should be a discussion forum, it is, in fact, a minefield!
And that's where I'm going to stop reading your letter until you address your lies and false accusations, of which I have proof.
Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
-Acts 24:13You are the one who will not listen, and I can prove that from the forum posts you made in relation to Tim. Whereas, you cannot prove your false accusations against me, and against everyone else on our forum for that matter, I can prove what I'm saying against you in three points, so if you refuse to hear this, then we have nothing more to discuss, so you should be on your way and I pray blessings upon your and your family for all your needs throughout the coming week. However, if you choose to hear the truth,
then pay close attention because this is how you make an argument:Tim's post:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=732.msg6050#msg6050 In this post, Tim went into the books of 1 John, Romans, and 1 Timothy to show you your error. You then posted this:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=732.msg6054#msg6054 Your only response to those Scriptures was the following:
What is being taught here is VERY new to me. That said, I readily admit, this is not an argument.First, you admitted that you had never heard this doctrine. That's why you said it's "
VERY new to me." Therefore, right after you heard this new doctrine, before even considering the matter and discussing it with us, you left. That alone is enough to demonstrate your hypocrisy of calling this a "minefield" when you are so cowardly that you run away the moment you don't have an answer. That shows us that you did not really come here to learn anything (as you claimed you did); you stayed as long as your personal opinions were satisfied, and the first time questions arose, you left immediately.
Second, I should not be surprised at this point when people write me the most absurd things, but when I read things like this, I still marvel: You stated in your post the admission that, "this is not an argument," meaning that you knew you were not presenting a proper argument to the doctrine being taught, but then you have the audacity to turn around and write me to complain about not being able to make arguments on our forum, and that you had made a clear argument? Normally, I would ask if you were joking, but sadly, I know you're not. You made
NOTHING clear; it might be something you believed in your own mind, but if you look at your posts objectively, they were very confusing and irrational, and I guarantee everyone else thought the same thing. We pointed out your assumptions and your ignorance of Scripture, but you ignored us. The contradiction and hypocrisy is almost unrivaled by about anything I've ever received in email because you
IGNORED Tim's arguments, and Tim even pointed that out to you, but you ignored him on that too:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=732.msg6056#msg6056 You lied to him with your flattering lips (and everyone else on the way out), you used majority opinion (unbiblical logical fallacy - as in, "
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil" in Exd 23:2) as a response to the Scripture he gave you, and then you ran away, which show that, truly in your heart, you have little to no respect for the Scripture. Joop, you can make any excuse for yourself to make yourself feel better, but the evidence is clear, and God will judge matter.
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
-Luke 16:15
They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
-Psa 12:2Third, the only reason you wrote me this letter today was to help make YOU feel better about yourself. After reading your testimony, I've not yet been convinced you're born again in Christ, and it's NOT because you don't agree with us about God in Three Persons; that has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that, when I looked closely enough at your conversation from the beginning, I noticed that there was NO testimony of Jesus Christ, sin, guilt, repentance, remission; nothing. Here are your posts:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=232.msg1427#msg1427 http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=232.msg1428#msg1428 http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=232.msg1433#msg1433 http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=232.msg1486#msg1486 I'm not saying for sure that you're not of Christ, I just haven't seen the evidence in your conversation yet. Read your own testimony carefully. You act as if you have been converted and saved from day one, all throughout the Catholic Church and the Pentecostals. Salvation is not "selecting the 'right' ministry." I'm not even certain enough to know if you know enough about Scripture to understand that is not where saving grace comes from; it's not like we get to say, "I'm saved because I came out of the Pentecostals and RCC." That is not what saves men. The Gospel of Christ should reflect in your testimony, but it was nowhere to be found, and there's a reason for that Joop:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18If you had ever actually come to repentance and been converted, that would have been front and center in your testimony. In our church, most of us know that because we have come to repentance and been converted, so we know what it means to us, and therefore, we know the difference when hearing/reading the words of someone else has never gone through it. If you expected everyone to believe that you had the Holy Spirit of God living inside of you while you sat through decades of the RCC and decades more in the Pentecostals, you're only fooling yourself.
I always had suspicions about you because of your posts; I just never said anything about it because I was trying to exercise patience, hoping that you might learn some things over time (which is why you said you joined our forum in the first place), but after you left, I let everyone know about my suspicions with plenty of evidence:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=733.msg6061#msg6061Most of your conversation is not "What does the Bible say on this matter," nor do most of your posts demonstrate that interactive "debate" you were so zealously writing me about in this letter. Rather, your posts are "Here's my opinion," "Here's my thoughts" "Here's what I feel" -- not about the truth of a matter. Your opinions and feelings sit on the throne of your heart, and that is evidenced by your words.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
-Jer 17:9
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
-Pro 28:26I normally would not have to be this firm with someone, but after you've been with us this long, you lied and ran, and then returned to me to continue lying and falsely accusing, so it's time for some of that "open rebuke" you told us on the forum that you desired.
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
-Pro 15:10
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
-1Ti 5:20Now, if you give me a reasonable response to all that, and are willing to confess the truth, I can continue reading your letter, but proof speaks louder than your lying tongue. If you don't want to hear the truth and confess your wrongdoing, then just say so, that way, we don't waste each other's time. I've got work to do and I'm going to get back to it. Have a great day.
"And that's where I'm going to stop reading your letter until you address your lies and false accusations, of which I have proof."
...meaning that you knew you were not presenting a proper argument to the doctrine being taught
You are right. I didn't present a proper argument.
That is one reason I wrote this all. But if you refuse to read it, what else can I do?
This will be the last mail to you.
You also have a great day.
Okay, so you won't state clearly that you refuse to hear the matter, and you won't confess your sin (which is expected since you've never testified coming to repentance of sin in the first place), but I can tell that's the case, so I don't need you to confirm it. I just wish you would have been honest and straight-forward. I never said I refused to read your letter, so you're falsely accusing me again. You just like to lie to justify yourself. I told you that there was a condition of confession of your wrongdoing, and you rejected that. I'm not going to let you waste my time while you lie Joop; find somewhere else where they put up with that and leave us in peace.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
-Pro 26:5
As you can see, he confessed that he didn't make a proper argument, which means he left in a huff of emotion, rather than addressing the facts. Therefore, his letter should have started with an apology of treating us poorly, and reacting unbiblically to the situation, but that's not how he started his letter. He started out trying to justify himself, and accusing us of the deceit that one would normally see in a minefield. If anyone requests it, I'll post the rest of his letter below; I understand if one of you wants to read it and look closer at his argument, but I haven't bothered to read it because until he comes to repentance, nothing he said in that letter will matter.
By the way, it should be noted that Joop said in his exit post:
"I have decided to leave CLE" (He meant the forum in that context)
Yet, he logged back in today. So much for keeping his word. I'm questioning whether or not to ban him because, for those of you who have been here a long time, you know what typically happens next, and it always involves contentious drama we don't want here.
