Okay, so what Barry is doing here is teaching false doctrine because he believes that the work of water baptism saves people. He does not want to say that directly, but his doctrine reflects that, and his testimony indicates that as well. That is why he is deceptive: Barry is not coming forward to talk about his true beliefs. He came here to start a fight; he did not come here to have this discussion.
I don't want to sit here and waste my time arguing with someone who believes he saved by his works, believes in "baptismal regeneration," and furthermore, attempts to convolute this subject to the point that the average person reading this cannot follow it. So, I'll demonstrate some of Barry's deception in a couple of examples he gave, and if you all want to handle anything else, you are welcome to do so.
Barry stated in this most recent post:
I believe Acts 2:41 is one whole thought and states that three thousand souls were added to the body of Christ because they were baptized.Now, for those of you who were following this thread, I already responded to that and proved to him what he said was incorrect:
[v41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
So Barry says:
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.
Well, first of all, this is not an argument that makes the case for Barry's doctrine, namely that "baptism is required for salvation." Second, the Scripture does not say what Barry claims it says. I'll ask everyone reading this to go back up and read the verse and Barry's comment slowly and carefully.
--Barry claims that the Acts 2:41 says that those who were baptized were added to the church.
--The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.
Then it says, three thousand people were added to the church, and I would like to note that does not say that everyone who was baptized was added to the church because not everyone who gets baptized is a Christian. (i.e. Barry is assuming that "baptism = being added to the church," which is not the case.)
So what happened took place in three steps:
- Barry argued that Acts 2:41 says that those were baptized were added to the church.
- I demonstrated that Acts 2:41 did not say that.
- Barry repeated himself instead of rationalizing his position.
When a man ignores what is being said to him, and he repeats himself as a response without acknowledging what the other person is saying, then you have run into a situation in which that man will no longer hear. What it means to "rationalize" your position is when you walk through a logical process by quoting Scripture and explaining the interpretation of it alongside your argument, similar to what I did in the quote above. What Barry did was claim that he was following a logical process, and he gave us the following:
The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church
Of course, most of you are not going to understand any of that, which is how he is doing sleight-of-hand to fool the people he is talking to. If any of you wonder why I have been writing to Barry with a such firm tone, you should hopefully understand after I explain this.
Allow me to interpret this for you in plain English; here is Barry's argument:
"If those who were baptized were added to the church, and those who were saved were added to the church, those who were baptized are those who were saved."Barry said that
THIS is the logic he was using for his argument, but he invoked a logical fallacy called "False Equivalence," or some of you might know it as comparing apples and oranges while calling them the same thing. The fallacy states that two things (i.e. A & B) share a similar characteristic (i.e. C), and therefore, they are the same thing, which is logically wrong, and it is the same as Barry calling apples and oranges the same by labeling them "round objects," while ignoring the many characteristics which make them two different things.
Let's look at an example of false equivalence:
- Adolf Hitler was responsible for killing millions of people.
- Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing millions of people.
- Therefore, all evolutionists are responsible for killing millions of people.
Now, perhaps you could argue some philosophical truth to those statements, that there is a connection between the philosophy of evolutionism and the result of someone killing millions of people, but to accuse an evolutionist on the street of killing millions of people (i.e. that those two concepts are one and the same) is simply ludicrous. Likewise, there is a philosophical truth that there is a correlation between being born again in Christ and being baptized (i.e. because all those who have been saved are commanded to be baptized), but to call baptism and salvation the same thing is simply ludicrous.
To put it another way, Jesus told us that the world would hate us, and eventually, in the days of Revelation, we will be beheaded for Christ. (Rev 20:4) If we follow Barry's so-called "logic," since Christians will be beheaded for Christ, that means that all people who have been beheaded are automatically born again in Christ, and such an argument is absurd to say the least.
It is important to note a key word in Barry's supposedly "logical" argument, and that is his use of the word 'IF.' Not only is his statement a logical fallacy, but the word 'if' added to his argument also tells us that he does not know if his statement is true or false. He would not have to say "
if" before "
a = c," if he believed that those being baptized where automatically added to the church. This is why, in my explanation, I went on to give an example, providing Scriptural evidence to my argument, so that way Barry would not be able to claim that there was no example in Scripture where this had happened:
To provide correlating Scripture, let's look at Simon the sorcerer:
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
-Acts 8:13
Simon believed and was baptized, and yet, he was rejected by Peter:
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
-Acts 8:20-23
You cannot be in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness when you have been regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost. This is what Barry does not understand because he has never been regenerated. He believed that he was saved by his works (i.e. baptism), but was never born again in repentance and true faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, which is why he cannot understand this doctrine.
And yet, if you read carefully, that's
EXACTLY what Barry did, which is why he accused me of using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy:
One might claim that Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira were false converts based on your article of the such.
Now I will argue this point because its entire premise is a logical fallacy. It is more commonly known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Thus, Barry's response to my argument about Simon the sorcerer was, "
No Chris, that cannot be true, otherwise, my argument is wrong." Precisely. The problem is that Barry is actually using the "
No False Scotsman" fallacy, which is a common fallacy that atheists use, and I explain that in more details in an article I wrote called:
The Atheist's 'No False Scotsman' FallacyThe reason Barry is so desperately attempting to defend his deceptive and illogical claims is because he was not saved in the manner Scripture defines (while deceptively acting like we are in agreement on doctrine so he can fool others here), which is the manner in which the rest of us here were born again in Christ. Barry believes in another way to Jesus Christ than what Scripture teaches us. Barry believes he was saved by water baptism, and I can assure him, with certainty in the Word of God, that his belief in water baptism for the foundation of his salvation will end him up in hell and the lake of fire.
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
-Revelation 1:5
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
-2Ti 3:13-14Hopefully, you all will more clearly see how deceptive Barry is, and if he wants to continue being deceptive on this forum, then I will bid him a peaceful and pleasant day, and then personally show him the door because I am not going to let him stick around here, sneaking in comments here and there, trying to deceive new Christians into believing the heresies he was taught and adopted. If he really wants to believe what he is saying, he should join the Catholics or Adventists because, as far as I am aware, they are much more in line with Barry's false doctrine.
Remember this: If Barry really wanted to address me, he could have emailed me, but he came here on this forum because he wanted this to be public. He came here to pick a fight, and so he can make as many excuses as he wants, but thank God that He has given me enough discernment to see right through Barry's feigned words.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
-Col 3:9
Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
-Proverbs 22:10
