what did Christ mean in John 10:16??

[Jephte21]

When the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 10:16 that other sheep he has which are not of this fold, was he talking about one of the tribe of Israel who were scattered throughout the world or the gentiles? To me it sounds he was referring to us the gentiles because while he was on earth he only ministered to the Jews and not the gentiles that's why he said he have other sheep which are not of this fold. I have a group of Mormons who I talk to, who believe that after Christ was resurrected and went to heaven he came down again to visit the Americas in 34 A.D. when I ask them to show me the scripture that proved that, they give me John 10:14-16 which have nothing to do with what they teach.

what do you guys think of John 10:16, am I right in my understanding or do I need correction?

[Caleb]

Keep in mind that this is a parable.  Jesus could be talking about what's to come when he gives his life up on the cross; because he says that this was a commandment received by his Father.  He also mentions that, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again;" "I lay down my life for the sheep."  It also seems that the sheep that are not in the fold could be the ones who are in Abraham's bosom.  But in no way do I think it has anything to do with what the Mormons teach.

[creationliberty]

I think Jephte has things to answer for on this forum which hasn't done, so that shouldn't be ignored. However, to the point, this is Jews and Gentiles. There are those of a fold of sheep, that is, who are the elect of God of the Jewish people; not all Jews, but those who have come to repentance and faith. And at that time, there was another fold, outside of the Jewish elect, who were the Gentile elect, and they would be brought into the fold, and both would be made into one fold. The sheep, the elect; these are descriptions of those who have come to repentance and faith to the Living God, and specifically to the Lord Jesus Christ in the new dispensation.

[Caleb]

The more I read this parable and what happened after Jesus was done saying it, it becomes more clear.  At this point, I'm in full agreement with Christopher on this one.  I believe that the "thieves and robbers" are the pharisees and sadducees.  The "thief", mentioned in verse 10, is Satan.  Of course the sheep are those who came to repentance and faith like Christopher had said.  And again, the sheep not of the fold are the Gentiles.  Also, I want to say that the hirelings are the false converts; but I may need correction on that.

[anvilhauler]

The more I read this parable and what happened after Jesus was done saying it, it becomes more clear.  At this point, I'm in full agreement with Christopher on this one.  I believe that the "thieves and robbers" are the pharisees and sadducees.  The "thief", mentioned in verse 10, is Satan.  Of course the sheep are those who came to repentance and faith like Christopher had said.  And again, the sheep not of the fold are the Gentiles.  Also, I want to say that the hirelings are the false converts; but I may need correction on that.

The hirelings are some of the false converts.  A hireling is paid to look after the sheep and they are like the "pastors" of today who expect a pay packet to do what they should be doing for free.  If they truly cared for the sheep they wouldn't use false teachings and extortion to get money but would either work for a living or both work and ask for donations in order to fulfil their Godly ministry.  The hireling's god is their own belly (their own wants and desires) and when trouble comes along in no way are they self sacrificing to care for the others in the body of Christ.

The other false converts like and including the hirelings are the seed that fell on all of the other ground except the good ground. 

[Reed Scott]

Just a ?

What about 'not muzzling the ox'?  I fully agree with teaching here about false converts and leavened pastors and parishioners.  But I personally have no problem with supporting a good teacher and pastor.  If a true man of God is effectively building up the Body of Christ I would rather he be able to do it full time.

[creationliberty]

The point Kevin is making is that most of them are not willing to do it for free, which is why they are called hirelings. Also, by paycheck, he typically means that they are getting a salary, which is nowhere talked about in Scripture, and the question is: If tomorrow it was made illegal in the U.S. for a pastor to receive any kind of paycheck for salary, how many pastors do you think there would be left in America?

[Reed Scott]

Chris,

I can think of ... one.   

[creationliberty]

If you're implying me, I've never claimed to be a pastor. I've claimed to be a teacher and evangelist, but I have not yet been convinced that I am called unto a pastoral ministry.

[Reed Scott]

A rose by any other name ....

[Jeanne]

Okay, now I'm confused. I guess first of all, what is the definition of a pastor?

Pastor
P'ASTOR, noun [Latin from pasco, pastum, to feed.]

1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.

2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.

Chris, are you not in charge of the forum here and our church group? You may not feel called to be a pastor but that's kind of what you're doing with us anyway, isn't it? I mean, what else would we call you?

[anvilhauler]

The Bible uses the term 'pastor' along with apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers.

Ephesians 4 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

All of these of course should be Godly people but there are no definite rules laid down for their conduct here. 

But along with these people doing these ministries there are also elders and deacons that have been ordained to fulfill their ministries in the churches.  There are definite rules laid down for the behaviour and conduct of the elders and deacons.

1 Timothy 3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Those in the "churches" today who call themselves "pastors" don't seem to even know that they are not pastors but are rather holding the position of being an elder or bishop in a church and doing it very poorly at that.  If they understood scripture they would never go around calling themselves "pastors". 

Maybe they don't like being referred to as elders because then even the "luke warms" in their congregations might notice there are definite rules laid down for an elder or bishop and they know that they are definitely outside the bounds of those rules.

[Caleb]

Thanks Kevin and Christopher for the added input of what the hirelings are.  False converts, I suppose, was too much of a wide range to use.  When I said false converts I was also including people that worked in the church, not just the pastor; and those who give their time and money to be seen among the church congregation, or "among men" as the Bible puts it.  Also, I am going to have to agree with Jeanne on Christopher being a pastor.  We specifically use him as our base when Curtis, his wife, and I do our Bible study.  I do however try to include or make more clear what's being said when we pause for questions.  So as to not have a one pastor system at our Bible study we use Christopher as one of our pastors.

[creationliberty]

For someone to call me a pastor without me first making the profession that I was called unto that ministry would be a mistake. Now, it is possible that I have made a mistake in understanding my calling, not that I do not have faith of my calling, but that I do not trust in my own knowledge. I am called to teach. I can say that with confidence. I have no problem being called a teacher or preacher as long as no one gives me any flattering title. I'm just trying to warn folks that it may be a grievous mistake to claim someone else's calling for them; I don't think that's a Biblical approach, and I wouldn't claim any calling for you all without you confessing it first to me.

[Jeanne]

While it's true that I don't really think of you as a pastor, I'd like to know what the Biblical definition of that position is and if it differs from what Webster said.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I also noticed that in this verse, Paul clearly separates apostles, prophets and evangelists but kind of lumps pastors and teachers together. Are the roles of these two really all that much different? I'm not trying to argue with you, Chris, but I'm just confused over this issue.

Is it possible to act in or fulfill a certain role without being fully aware that that's actually what you're doing?

[creationliberty]

I understand about Eph 4:11 Jeanne, and I taught about that common separation, but what I also said is that all roles teach.
http://creationliberty.com/articles/onepastor.php
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This is not to say that all the roles in the church are listed here, because deacons, elders and bishops are not mentioned, but these are distinguished roles because Paul is saying that God gives different roles to different people for different purposes, and that one man (like in the one-pastor church system) is not supposed to take everything on his shoulders alone. These are generalized definitions I'm providing in order to give Christians a better understanding what each role does.

Pastor: This role is taken after its name, meaning a shepherd, one that cares for and watches over the flock, visiting them and helping them for their good health and prosperity, while feeding them, which is meant in the spiritual sense, that they would be fed the Word of God. Ultimately, the pastor is there for the growth of the church within, focusing on caring for one assembly.

Evangelist: This role focuses more on preaching to a wide range of people, meaning that, instead of shepherding one specific congregation, they move around outside the congregation, and focus on church growth. An evangelist is not set to teach in one particular church, but in writing or speaking, preaches outwardly to all who will hear, whether they be Christians or not. Evangelists can still operate within their local church, teaching as a pastor does, but whereas the pastor solely focuses on the lambs that are found in one particular location, the evangelist focuses more on finding the lost who would become lambs, and strengthening the church as a whole.

Prophet: This role focuses on delivering the Word of God to the people, which is the general definition of the word 'prophesy' (1Co 14:1), whether they are believers, unbelievers, or false converts; rebuke, reproof, and instruction in righteousness is the main goal, to keep people on the path of righteousness in Christ. Prophets can also foretell future events, but that was before the entire Word of God had been completed, in which God would give His Word to specific individuals to deliver to the people. Although I believe the foretelling of future events is much less common today (if at all) since we have the book of Revelation to show us what will happen to the end of the world; prophets today are mostly those who take the Word of God as it is written, rebuke sin, and warn the people of coming judgment.

Apostle: This role is more commonly known today as a "missionary," but the term 'missionary' is a Catholic-created term; before the corruption of the Catholic Church, missionaries were called "apostles." The general definition of an apostle is someone who is commissioned to an important duty or business, and apostleship was also used in Jewish society to send officers into distant provinces for various purposes. Today, an apostle, typically working in a group of at least two, will travel to a foreign land to start up a church in an area where the church does not exist, or will help existing churches to get organized and/or help them in times of trouble.

If you think about it for a moment, you can see that each role overlaps, meaning that each role will end up performing other roles to some extent. A pastor sometimes preaches to those outside the church, an evangelist sometimes rebukes and warns of judgment in the church, a prophet sometimes cares for the flock within, and apostles end up doing a little of everything as needed.

The reason I did not mention teachers is because, essentially, all the roles are responsible to teach, and though I am called by Christ to teach, everyone in the church was given the great commission by Christ:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
-Matthew 28:18-20

[Jeanne]

Thank you, Chris. I had forgotten about that bit in the article.

[Caleb]

I apologize Christopher.  Being a teacher makes way more sense than pastor.  Thanks for explaining the differences.