Conversing with "Christians"

[Laura]

A family member of mine shared this image on social media, to which I replied (comments are copied below). I do not normally post on social media, but felt like this was an opportunity to practice my understanding of the Scriptures. The link is to a photo posted on Facebook about bringing transgender people to know Jesus. I also want to state that I do not endorse this group or anything they post on Facebook.

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50636680_549565242215786_537126737432018944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=e7709779219399543a699f1aacefc4f5&oe=5CC69689

Me: The problem is people don't read the Bible anymore. They listen to new-age "gospel" and add/take away from the true word of God to make it fit their sinful nature so they feel justified. Jesus said himself he did not come to bring peace but to divide. Of course, to those of us who read Scripture, this all comes as no surprise. Those championing the "all-inclusive" movement easily resort to labels that suggest we do not love, but what can be more loving than showing them the truth and the love God has for those who repent and believe in Christ Jesus? Jesus ate with sinners to bring them out of sin, not to "high five" them for it. God's kingdom is all-inclusive to those who have grief and godly sorrow for wrongdoing.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians‬ 6:9-10‬ KJV‬‬

effeminate - adjective - (of a man) having or showing characteristics regarded as typical of a woman; unmanly.

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."
Luke 12:51-52 KJV

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also."
John 15:18-23 KJV

AJ: Hi Laura. I'm a seminary graduate who has studied the bible in the original languages and currently studies with theologians. Be careful when using accusations like "people don't read the Bible anymore" and "They listen to new-age "gospel" and add/take away from the true word of God to make it fit their sinful nature so they feel justified." If you haven't done the arduous work of reading the bible with experts from various backgrounds who disagree about its meaning, and/or you do not know any queer or transgender Christians, then there is almost certain likelihood that you're misreading it in a way that reflects your culture.

I won't go into a long diatribe about how horribly translated the KJV is (although it is beautiful prose), nor about how the Gospels were constructed in a way that positions Jesus' ministry as a way of re-orienting all commandments around the imperative of love. I will, however, ask you this: why did you quote that last passage from John? Both sides can accuse the other of "hating" them, but which side has the power to render others silent and worse through legislation and cultural norms?

Me: AJ, I already explained in my previous post that showing someone the truth is not hate. To suggest that you understand the Word of God better than someone else because you studied it in college is ludicrous! As for why I quoted from King James, this sums it up better than I can explain. Linked to: Why I Use The King James Bible - Creation Liberty Evangelism

AJ: I'm well aware of the arguments for why people use the KJV, I just disagree with them - strongly. The KJV actually in fact contains translations that border on heresy, which is why Evangelical Christianity - and the idea that there is ONE correct translation - also borders on heresy.

I'm not sure why it is ludicrous to suggest that some people know the Bible better than others. I didn't just study it in college. I'm working on a PhD. I will gladly say that I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will also say that I do know experts, and if you haven't put in the work that they have, perhaps you might want to listen to them. Would you listen to your Pastor if they suggested you were reading it incorrectly? You may not recognize me as your pastor, yet I have been one, I'm married to one, and I study/have studied with many of them.

As for questions around gender and homosexuality, I am suggesting that if you haven't studied with experts on the topic, or if you don't even know any queer or transgender Christians, then you're likely very mis- or ill-informed on the topic.

End exchange

I did not reply further because he began twisting my words and only wants to have the last word. Afterwards, I learned that his gentleman used to be a friend of my family member and on a trip across the country, asked if he could stay with my family member. It was during this time that he revealed he believes that Jesus is just the character of a story. What I have learned from all of this is that I need to spend less time on social media (ideally, none) and more time studying the Word of God. If I want to have fellowship or practice my understanding of Scripture, I should look here. Also, if I was wrong in what I said or how I applied God's Word, please correct me.

[anvilhauler]

That was an entertaining read Laura.  I think you did really well.  It is always interesting reading and watching others and their interactions with non-believers and false Christians or young Christians who are yet to learn and seeing how they go about it.  Thanks lots for posting.

[TheChickenWhisperer]

I will agree with what Kevin said. 

And, I would like to add, you knew when to quit because he twisted your words!  I could feel myself getting confused as well and that is something I need to work on.  You knew there was no point in going further because he wasn't hearing you.  Nice job!

Matthew 7: 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Suelong88]

Because he "studies with theologians" that makes him understand better?  How about you let the Lord lead you in the understanding of His Word and not putting your faith and trust in man's interpretation.

[Masha]

The fact that you are able to discern/rebuke Biblically is great! I agree with Sue:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

There are many things in his response that could be Biblically rebuked, like the "learning from theologians"
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Nevertheless it was wise for you to stop responding. That was probably best. Good job.

[Laura]

Thank you all for taking the time to read through this and comment. Kevin, I appreciate your feedback. There are several things in his last post I could have rebuked with Scripture, but it was obvious it would fall on deaf ears and I would be wasting my time. Tonya and Masha, thanks for the verses. Very appropriate! I noticed a parallel between his comments and the way the Pharisees and scribes acted in the New Testament, as well as the Catholic priests during the Dark Ages, thinking they had superior understanding due to their titles. Sue, as if studying with theologians and knowing transgender "Christians" are prerequisites for understanding the Word of God. HAHA! Understanding of God's Word comes from God, not from a piece of paper, a title, or men.

Someone else commented and brought up some other new-age Bible translation, of which I know nothing about. I had a hard time discerning his intentions, but it doesn't really matter since I have removed myself from the conversation. Nevertheless, you might find his response interesting/entertaining.

Michael: Interesting, I didn't expect this to turn towards textual criticism of the KJV.

I'm not going to pick on any English-language Bible readers here, but I highly recommend reading up on it.

It's rather humbling to dive deep into how imperfect the oldest manuscripts we really have are (spoiler: in most cases, we don't have the originals, or even the copies of the originals), the unreliable process of translating and reproducing copies, not to mention the process to selecting the passages for inclusion in the Bible to begin with.

AJ, you going to read  Robert Alter's new translation?

AJ: Honestly I wasn't planning on it. I'm fascinated by it, but it's not my specialty and my Hebrew is, shall we say, rusty. I'll be fascinated to hear what some of my mentors and other scholars I respext end up saying about it (in private, I'm sure) over the next couple years. It's definitely an exciting time on that front.

End exchange.

Based on this entire conversation, AJ appears to be a wolf in sheep's clothing - his lies and deceit were quite obvious to me. I'm not sure of the specific verse, but even demons and the devil himself know Scripture and fear God. I know this is nothing new to you, there are MANY in the world, but it was my first time interacting with a false convert in such a way. He calls himself a pastor; it's grievous to think of those he will lead away from the truth.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them."
Luke 11:44

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Matthew 23:15

[Laura]

Thinking about this some more, perhaps I went too far in my accusations against this man. I do not know his salvation or if he is a false convert; however, his comments lack Biblical foundation and do raise the question.

[anvilhauler]

Thinking about this some more, perhaps I went too far in my accusations against this man. I do not know his salvation or if he is a false convert; however, his comments lack Biblical foundation and do raise the question.

Nevertheless your rebuke was quite justified and if they were right with God and living in repentence and humility they would examine themselves and put the things right in their lives which are wrong.  If they were true Christians maybe they should have realised by now that God makes His message to people really simple so that all can understand it and that He also preserves His word as He promised to so that all can learn and that no-one is left with an excuse.  In professing themselves to be wise they became fools.

[creationliberty]

Thinking about this some more, perhaps I went too far in my accusations against this man. I do not know his salvation or if he is a false convert; however, his comments lack Biblical foundation and do raise the question.

I just read over your original post, and you are wrong. Let me clarify: Your original post was not wrong, your belief that you went "too far in your accusations" was wrong. In my analysis, I believe you were very patient. If he had talked with me, I would have laid into him much harder than that because the man is a Pharisee, a product of his education, and obviously had no working of the Spirit of God in him because he's never come to repentance. That was clear as day from the first paragraph I read from him.

When you used the Word of God to rebuke false doctrine, and he tried to refer you to so-called "experts," that is the opposite of what Scripture teaches us, which means he does not have the Spirit of God for understanding.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
-2Pe 1:20

Did you notice that when he claimed that you didn't understand the Bible that he did NOT refer you to the Holy Spirit? He referred you to those he considers to be "experts."
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
-1Jo 2:27

The man is ever learning things, but he will never come to a knowledge of the truth, while arrogantly believing he has knowledge:
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
-2Ti 3:4-7

He is a respecter of persons, as I have thoroughly finished covering in our Bible studies over the past three weeks: Respecting Persons is Sin
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
-James 2:9

He believes only the high, lofty, well-educated, the PhDs of this world are called by God to minister to the people, but he is of his father the devil, and he knows not that God rarely ever calls the wise, noble, and mighty for His purpose:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
-1Co 1:26-29

He calls these verses from the KJB "heresy" because he blasphemes before God, and I don't have a lot of patience for men who claim to be of Christ and mock His Word. You handled the matter as you thought was right in good conscience with God, so stand firm on it, take in the experience, increase your discernment, and you'll do even better next time.

[Kenneth Winslow]

AJ did an excellent job of cutting and pasting from the "Double-minded Bible doubters book of tired cliches and logical fallacies".   

[Laura]

Kevin and Chris: Thank you for your guidance and for the correction. I find it easy to second guess myself and soften my words, so it's good to know my original reaction was justified and not done inappropriately out of anger or frustration.

Also, I appreciate your breakdown of the situation and the Bible verses to back it up! It helps me learn and be more prepared for future conversations. I am excited to listen/read your study on respecting persons, which I hope to get to soon. I should have sent him a link to that, but it too would have likely fallen on deaf ears. Isn't it interesting that people like this rarely quote the Bible to support their views? I guess it doesn't come as a surprise since it is not their ultimate authority and they would have to twist the Word, but it's something I have noticed lately with other Christians and pastors.

Kenneth: So true! Haha

[Matt]

Thank you for sharing Laura

[Jeanne]

Many people call telling the truth 'hate speech'. I would ask them: if a doctor discovered you had cancer, would it be hateful for him to tell you? Would you rather know what's going on so you can do something about it, or have the doctor tell you everything is fine so you don't worry about it and don't do anything about it until it's too late?

In the same way, sin is going to lead you to hell. Maybe you don't want to hear that, but it's the truth. Do you really not want to know about it and spend the rest of eternity in the lake of fire?