Author Topic: What is the Church?  (Read 30154 times)

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 09:19:18 PM »
To your specific point I agree:
All who are not in the book of life since the foundation worship the dragon and beast.
But those who have not been sealed "YET" would also worship the dragon and beast until such time as God in His mercy redeems us from our iniquity and seals us that holy Spirit.

I'm using myself as a case and point: I worshipped the dragon and beast for most of my adult life: I did much wickedness in the sight of the Lord and had no regard for Him. I did not seek Him or obey him, I was lost and blindly worshipped the false idols of the world until that day I was sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Of course God in not trapped in time as you understand, and He knows those who are His outside of time.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Jeanne

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 09:31:05 PM »
Okay, the problem I have is with those two verses you quoted: Revelation 13:16-17 where it says no man will be allowed to buy or sell without the mark. That clearly makes a distinction that those who refuse to take the mark will be excluded from all forms of commerce and will have to find other ways to provide for themselves.

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 09:39:27 PM »
All,

If this post seems to indicate that I am doing any teachings, please understand it is not.
It was speculative, as I haven't even began my study on Revelation. I anticipate beginning that sometime in September and I will be in Study until January 2019. I stated loosely the thesis, but I haven't even started so please do not read things here as validated proofs from Scripture. These last few comments since the subject matter changed from antichrist to the beast have been fun conversation for me, but I do not want to mislead anybody so until I present this information in a properly formatted article, take all comments at face value.

Thanks.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Timothy

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 11:59:52 PM »
All,

If this post seems to indicate that I am doing any teachings, please understand it is not.
It was speculative, as I haven't even began my study on Revelation.

Proverbs 10:19 - In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

But you wrote a 66 page article teaching that the prophecies in Daniel 9 have already been fulfilled. You are currently writing an article on your interpretation of Matthew 24 and you have said you will do one on Revelation after that. How can you say you are not doing any teachings? I'm not convinced that hardly anything you are teaching here and in your articles that I've read so far is something you just speculate. You are teaching these doctrines of yours, not speculating them.

When you claim things like this...

Quote
"Taking precept upon precept, it should be noted THAT antichrist is an "IT" and according to John, "IT" is a spirit and is already in the world since John's day."

...or this...

Quote
"If you are without Christ: Your WAY (the mark of your hands) and THOUGHTS (mark on your head) are wicked abominations."

...or this...

Quote
"The primary issue, is that people have been supplanted with the doctrine that these verses are future, but a careful reading of Scripture will prove that presupposition to be false. My study is to show that Revelation is relevant for what has happened in the history of Christs church and what is happening in the lives of man."
...or this...

Quote
"All who are not in the book of life since the foundation worship the dragon and beast.
But those who have not been sealed "YET" would also worship the dragon and beast until such time as God in His mercy redeems us from our iniquity and seals us that holy Spirit."

...then it is not merely speculating. You are teaching these things.

If you haven't even began your study on Revelation, then stop making claims about what it says and asserting your interpretations when you clearly don't know what you are talking about. You are not dealing with this out of wisdom but rather out of foolishness by teaching things from scripture that you admit that you haven't even studied yet. Again, if you are just speculating these things (which would mean you don't understand them fully) don't teach them as if you know.

Quote
Interesting points Kevin,

Who is the beast? Because antichrist is not mentioned one time in Revelation. You would have to show me the verse in Scripture that says, "that antichrist" is "the beast".

Being that there are two types of people in the world, those in Christ, and those without... If you are not sealed with the Spirit of God... You have only one other option.

I will be doing a Study of Revelation Chapter 1-22 once I finish Matthew 24.
Not really going to get into it now, but just some food for thought:

Rev 13:
16 And he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that NO man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Eze 3:
8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.
9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Proverbs 15:
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

If you are without Christ: Your WAY (the mark of your hands) and THOUGHTS (mark on your head) are wicked abominations.

Jude
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Ecc 3:
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

If you are not born again, you are still bound by the strong man (satan) (Matthew 12:29/Mark 3:27) and according to Jesus Christ:
John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

If you are going to put out any articles, you need to do a better job than this. It is plain as day that all you did here was a key word search in an attempt to connect verses together that have completely different contexts.

Quote
The primary issue, is that people have been supplanted with the doctrine that these verses are future, but a careful reading of Scripture will prove that presupposition to be false. My study is to show that Revelation is relevant for what has happened in the history of Christs church and what is happening in the lives of man.

If you haven't even began study in the book of Revelation, then it's obvious (by what you have taught about it here so far) that you are going to interpret it through the glasses of a false presupposition that future events have already taken place. As it stands, I can only expect false doctrine out of what you teach of it.

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 01:28:08 AM »
Timothy,
I clearly misunderstood, or still do misunderstand what these Forums are. It's evident that anybody who speculates on a passage of Scripture or shares an idea will be met with swift rebuke and criticism. I do not have all knowledge, nobody does, I came here to learn. Free and open communication is frowned upon, which appears to be the case, as I stated in the Masha debacle, one must proofread, analyze and check all references before posting on one of these Forum pages. This greatly hinders the possibility of bringing one to a proper understanding, because of fear of attack, it's best to remain silent.

I specifically stated, "Any feedback is welcome" when the Daniel article was posted. Interesting, you never mentioned a single word regarding the so-called "false doctrine" between 19 July and today. I welcome you to show me why Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled. Show me how that prince is "The Antichrist"? Show me that the last week of Daniel has a gap of undetermined amount of time separating the 69th and 70th? Show me why verse 26 is not regarding the destruction of the temple in 70AD? Explain to me why these 4 verses in Daniel are concerning the 7-year "Great Tribulation." Understand the 7-years of the future "Great Tribulation" comes from Daniel 9:24-27. But then if the 7-years are not fulfilled, understand that means that Christ was unable to fulfill the things God determined He would fulfill in 70 weeks (which includes those things mentioned in verse 24) and you and I are still dead in our sins and trespasses. Show me how that is wrong because I spent many months looking and searching the Scriptures daily to understand.
I stated in the article that I would love to be "raptured" if it were a true biblical principle as an example of my willingness to grow. Not that you believe in rapture, but show me because that article is how I interpret Daniel and if you have nothing to say over 66 pages besides to swoop in today and profess the blanket statement that cover to cover its false doctrine and everything I say is false doctrine... I may need to consider if this is a place that seeks to edify a brother or bring them down. How can I grow in understanding without being shown the error?

Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Proverbs 18:21

Clearly, since you hold that article as a false teaching but will not address the specifics, as to where I am mistaken in my interpretation, then you have falsely accused me of teaching false doctrine.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Jeanne

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 04:33:20 AM »
If I may make a suggestion, Chris, I would suggest that any speculation on Scripture that you are not yet sure of be posted in the private section of the forum so as to avoid confusion among non-Christians and new Christians. Based on the articles you have written, you ARE in a teaching position, so if you are in error it will be much more highly criticised here than it would be in an open debate amongst Christians only. This is not to say that we will not point out errors in the private section of the board, but it won't be shut down the way it is here. Better to get doctrine sorted out within the church than to present it to the public as fact where it might cause others to stumble.

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 06:10:19 AM »
Jeanne,

That is nice to know. I'm not sure if I missed the directions on how to be part of an online church or if they are not available to be read. Currently, my understanding is, whatever is posted is susceptible to heavy scrutiny and possible screams of false teacher. So, I will not let my personality come out again. It will be just the facts from now on to avoid accusations. I went from a CCM church in year one, to a Fundamental Baptist Church, years two and three.

I chalk this up to the growing pains of learning a unique form of fellowship.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Tristan David Smith

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 06:50:38 AM »
Timothy,
I clearly misunderstood, or still do misunderstand what these Forums are. It's evident that anybody who speculates on a passage of Scripture or shares an idea will be met with swift rebuke and criticism. I do not have all knowledge, nobody does, I came here to learn. Free and open communication is frowned upon, which appears to be the case, as I stated in the Masha debacle, one must proofread, analyze and check all references before posting on one of these Forum pages. This greatly hinders the possibility of bringing one to a proper understanding, because of fear of attack, it's best to remain silent.


Proverbs 13:1

A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke. A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence. He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction. The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.

Proverbs 27:5

Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips. A stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both. Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy? Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet. As a bird that wandereth from her nest, so is a man that wandereth from his place.


Proverbs 13:8

A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame. Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner  There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches. The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke. The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out. Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.

Luke 17:3 Context

Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Titus 1:13

Tristan David Smith

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 06:53:01 AM »
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith

Timothy

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 07:35:30 AM »
This sharpness is not because I don't welcome anybody to speculate and have discussion on things, but because you lied about what you are doing saying that you are not teaching.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;


I mean, to write out a 66 page article and to be working on another that will apparently be around 150 pages and call that 'speculation' is not only absurd, but dangerous. And what you have done here is flippantly throw around verses by doing key word searches to teach from a book you admit you haven't even studied. If you are going to teach, you need to take responsibility and be more prudent of what you say rather than doing it in this manner that you have.

spec

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 07:37:34 AM »
did I say that? I said THIS POST. and I received secret rebuke, not open.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 07:40:13 AM »
Now I am a false teacher and a liar... WOW!

From the very first posting: "Just had some things on my mind and wanted to vent so I stopped working on other things to share. Sorry if there are grammatical errors. This is not an official article or anything"

Do you people read?
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 07:41:33 AM »
If people are not allowed to just have conversation, just say so. There are no rules posted as to proper etiquette for Web Ministry.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 08:05:24 AM »
From the onset, my intro informed that this was just something on my mind that bothered me, the conversation I had with the fellow.
So if I say this is not an official article, and then later say the things in THIS POST are speculative. NOT the things in the Daniel Article and not the Future article, But THIS POST.

Not only do I then become a false teacher because Timothy accused the entire Daniel Article of being false teaching.
Not only that, but all future articles are false teachings.
And not only that, but now I am liar because when I say from post #1 this is not an official article, then later reaffirm that THIS POST is speculative.

Timothy, you are too much.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I would hate to be your enemy  :(
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

ThomasHGW

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 08:15:41 AM »
Chris B, take a good amount of time and go back and re-read all of the posts in this thread. I know that you claim that it is speculative, but you're writing indicated that you are teaching people something,as if you are right about it and it is fact. The contradiction (lie) is that you claim it is not teaching. No one here is saying that you can't teach our have ideas, they are correcting you on your contradiction. And I agree with everything Timothy corrected you on.
Please dont say something that you will regret later before you read everything over.
(I dont want you to let emotions get in the way of what is actually going on.)
The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.   -Psalms 119:72

creationliberty

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 08:23:45 AM »
1. The forum is a place where Christians (and even non-Christians) can come to talk within reason. There is the church as a whole, and then there is our church specifically; not everyone here is a part of our church. One of the reasons I opened this up was to allow other Christians a place where they can post their teachings if they want, but that does not mean they will not be met with scrutiny.

2. A false teacher is someone who pushes a doctrine that is proven to be false, not someone who makes an error and corrects it. As far as I understood Tim's post, he did not accuse you of being a false teacher, but we will not suffer error or sin to go unchecked on this forum. (e.g. The thread concerning the false accusations on sarcasm is being addressed so heavily because false accusations are lies; otherwise, it wouldn't be worth my time to write all those long posts--thus, we are not here talking about this matter because we like fighting; there is reason for it.)

3. You did lie because you contradicted yourself.
Quote
If this post seems to indicate that I am doing any teachings, please understand it is not.
Saying that "it's not teaching," doesn't make it so. Believing that it's not teaching, doesn't make it so.
The title of this thread is called "What is the church?" and in your original post, you are quoting Scripture and giving explanations with direct punctuated statements behind them. That is teaching. Get used to that. If you believe it is unfair to be judged on "venting" as teaching, welcome to my world. I would not be allowed to do that without being held accountable. Those who teach in Christ's church are set to a higher standard, but a lower position to serve; I don't always like it either, but I have learned that I have to be careful with every word I say, even when I'm frustrated, and that's because the Living God expects that higher standard from us:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
-Mat 12:36

(e.g. My statement that God expects a higher standard from us, and posting Mat 12:36, is teaching, which we are all called to do in certain capacities.)
I can already tell you've started to lose your calm demeanor by simply looking at the number of quick posts you started throwing out at the end, instead of reading everything, and responding step-by-step. That's out of character for you based on the previous conversations you've had with us, and it's definitely out of character for you to accuse "you people" of not reading, when I know for a fact that a number of the people who have responded to you in this thread are much better at reading and comprehension than I am. Now, you could come back and say, "Guys, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I said that," then we can take that as error instead of lying because there's repentance behind it, but as it stands, you're rejecting what Tim said, and I agree with Tim.

4. I've known Tim a lot longer than you. He's been with our church for five years, and I've told our church a number of times that, if the church had to judge a matter, I would trust them to go to Tim rather than me to judge that matter because he studies the Bible thoroughly and has good discernment and humility. I say this, not for you to respect his person, but so that you know that he is not your enemy. He's firm because he has a love of the truth, as I'm sure you also desire, so let's continue to be reasonable. He may not talk much, but when he does, it is meaningful, and he has always had good reason for it. (i.e. I cannot recall any example of a time where he spoke too quickly; he is careful with his words.)
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Christopher_Belflower

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 09:09:20 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for helping me to see the issue where I lied about teaching. I was ignorant to the definition of what teaching was. My perception was that I was sharing. I was under the understanding that unless you "published" an article or did an audio teaching or in the event of a church building: taught a Sunday school class, or had a bible study, then it was not teaching. When you say, using Scripture and giving explanations with direct statements behind them, is teaching. Then I have to admit that is what I was doing. So I am sorry for misleading that it was not teachings. I'll seek to glorify Christ in future posts knowing that we have the greater condemnation.

I did not notice Timothy correct me when I said he accused me of being a false teacher, so perhaps he still holds that view. If he disagrees with the Daniel 9 article, that is absolutely fine, I have no issues with a disagreement. But if there are false teachings, I would appreciate the specifics on what exactly is not accurate or opposed to the Word of God with regards to that teaching so I can amend it to reflect the truth.

Thanks again, understand I was very stressed out earlier from the brethren, I don't have A/C in my house during the day(thats no excuse) But it's a bit miserable sometimes with the humidity and then not understanding where I was wrong compounded the issue. Thanks to all for highlighting my error.
Chris B
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

creationliberty

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 02:08:26 PM »
Maybe that's why red peppers seem to be a universal vegetable symbol for anger.  8)
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Timothy

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 07:24:57 PM »
I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I can log on at work but I typically don't have enough time to make a thought out post. And I have to think about what to say here because normally people don't come back in repentance like that. I know I haven't spoken to you before until now but I hope there's no hard or awkward feelings between us going forth. And please tell me if you ever suspect that from me. I understand I don't say much because I've never been very social, even among friends. But I don't want you or anybody here to fear that I'm going to say something. I would rather everyone fear the Lord God instead of a dum-dum like me. If you only know how dumb I really am. Some may not realize it because I don't say much. :P

I don't know where I called you a false teacher, but I'll be honest and say that I am convinced you have taught error in your article on Daniel 9. I had read the first one where it was 44 pages, but after you edited and added to it I wanted to go back through its entirety to make sure I understood all your points before saying anything. I wanted to give it a chance and look into it in more detail because I have, at one time, believed in the pre-trib doctrine and so I understand I could be wrong. The book of Daniel is not something you understand right away and I don't want to claim that I understand it fully. But there are points that you made that, when I compare it with scripture, does not line up. Give me some time and I will work on addressing some points in that thread later.

anvilhauler

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Re: What is the Church?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2018, 01:57:07 AM »
Interesting points Kevin,

Who is the beast? Because antichrist is not mentioned one time in Revelation. You would have to show me the verse in Scripture that says, "that antichrist" is "the beast".



The subject was "What is the church?"
Kevin wanted to talk about "The Antichrist"
The Bible never adds a definite article to antichrist. Rather, Scripture says "IT" is a spirit.
Kevin switched subjects from "The Antichrist" to "The Beast" implying they are the same without offering Scriptural evidence to that claim.


Hi Chris B

 :) No, I never claimed the antiChrist and the beast were one and the same.

If you read again, here is what I posted.

Revelation 13 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Nevertheless I do now concede that I am wrong with what I wrote and I do need to do more reading on the subject because you are quite right in that what I wrote doesn't add up.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I'm no expert on Revelation and although I do take an interest there is just so much in there.  For me I really do tend to think that I will only ever be able to understand Revelation as I see the events unfolding and being able to correlate them with scripture.

Thanks again though.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)