Author Topic: I don't know what to do...  (Read 7545 times)

Woodpot

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I don't know what to do...
« on: November 15, 2023, 08:32:35 PM »
A situation which has been developing, is coming to a head. In short, I am having a crisis, and I don’t know what to do. I am praying earnestly for guidance. Additionally, I would gladly accept the help of fellow Christians to aid in properly dividing the Word. My problem is this: The female friend who I mentioned in my earlier testimony loves me, and I love her in return. If all goes according to my heart, then I will have her in marriage before the year is out. However, I don’t know if this is God’s will and I do not trust my heart. I am praying for guidance. Biblically, we are both of us are free to re-marry, as far as I understand it.
My dilemna comes from this: I have been influenced by the Christian Identity movement, through my other friend who helped re-introduce me to Christ. For my part, I want only to be associated with the Word of God, and not be involved with any particular sects. In case you aren’t familiar with it, C.I. espouses, among other things, that both the Old Testament and New Testament doctrine and ordinances are all still in-effect, minus the Levitical priestly duties. In my case, the point I am running up against is encapsulated in Ezra chapter 9. As it is the entire chapter, it is too long to just quote it all here. The gist of the chapter, however, is that the Israelites were taking wives of the daughters of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites, which was a transgression of the Law. Ezra, learning of this, confers with the Lord God. The result is in Chapter 10:

Ezra 10:2,3
2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. 3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.


Ezra 10:10-12
10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel. 11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives. 12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do.


My friend corroborates this with the doctrine of Matthew, which he takes to mean that all of the previous Law up until Christ is still in effect.

Matthew 5:17-19 17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


I am extremely conflicted. Any advice anyone may be able to give, I would greatly appreciate.
Thank you for your time.

Ellie

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2023, 08:24:57 AM »
You might have to be more specific about what you are asking. I don't think I'd ever heard of the Christian Identity movement until you mentioned it, so I don't know what exactly they teach on those verses you quoted. And just reading your post without the context of what they/you think the meaning of those verses are was confusing to me because applying what Ezra wrote there about Israelites putting away foreign wives doesn't make sense to apply to Gentile Christians. I only have a guess about what you are trying to ask based on a very brief google search of what the Christian Identity movement is, so being more specific might be helpful to everyone here so we can understand.

However, it seems that the underlying presuppositions behind your specific questions would likely be resolved by understanding what it means that Christ fulfilled the law.

FULFILL'ED: Accomplished; performed; completed; executed. - Websters 1828

Chris wrote some articles where he explains this, and even though you're not asking specifically about the Sabbath or tithe, he still goes into an explanation of whether we as Christians are supposed to keep the law from the Old Testament in those teachings and I think that reading or listening to them would be helpful. I found the Sabbath teaching to be sufficient to explain the concepts when I used to think we had to keep the Sabbath, but the tithe one is more recently updated so it may explain things a bit differently or possibly better. Maybe if you go over those it might clear some things up for you, but if you still need help then feel free to ask more questions on here. I would be interested to hear what you glean from the teachings and if they helped.
"Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better." (Ecclesiastes 7:3)

Rowan M.

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2023, 11:30:32 AM »
I've come across the Christian Identity movement before (mainly in the form of British Israelism), and have just been refreshing my knowledge of it. One of its core teachings (and heresies) is the claim that Aryans rather than Jews are God's chosen race. People involved in this movement believe that white Europeans are the true Israelites and that the Jews are descendants of Canaanites, who in turn are descendants of Cain. They allege that Cain was a "cursed hybrid" of an illicit union between Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden. (I'm not sure whether every CI person believes this, but a great many do.)

Would it be fair for me to assume that you are white, but the special lady in your life is not? You currently live in Japan, so maybe she's Japanese? I suppose the CI movement would class people of Asian descent as being part of the Canaanite race or whatever. So adherents of this movement would regard marriage between a white and a non-white as an "unequal yoke" and thus purportedly against God's Law. Is my understanding of that correct?

One thing that I would like to state clearly at the outset is that God's prohibitions against the Jews marrying foreign women had NOTHING to do with so-called interracial mixing. The real reason (which I will shortly prove from Scripture) had to do with SPIRITUAL purity. God did not want His people intermarrying with pagans, because they would have a bad influence on their households and the nation of Israel as a whole. However, if a woman from a heathen nation got saved, then it was acceptable in God's eyes for her to marry an Israelite (Boaz and Ruth being a noteworthy case in point).

I'm not sure how much you believe in any of the "serpent seed" doctrine that permeates much of the CI movement, but the Bible is extremely clear on who Cain's biological father is:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. (Genesis 4:1)

So Cain's father was Adam, not the serpent. Cain was every bit as human as his brother Abel. There is nobody on earth with reptilian blood. No one group of people is more "pure" or less "pure" than another in terms of biological makeup. Incidentally, notice that Eve says, "I have gotten a man from the LORD". She would not have said this if the serpent had been Cain's biological father. It would have been a total contradiction.

However, the Bible makes a distinction between people's physical fathers and their spiritual fathers. You're probably familiar with John 8:44, in which Jesus tells a group of Jews (mainly Pharisees) that the Devil is their father. He did NOT say this because they were the "serpent seed" (there's no such thing), but because they were lost. They thought that they were eligible for Heaven simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham (a bit like CI people believing that being descendants of Adam, as opposed to the serpent, makes them God's children). Jesus was pointing out that regardless of who their physical ancestor was, they were, spiritually speaking, sons of the Devil. Satan is the spiritual father of all unsaved people, but God is the Father of everyone who is born again in Christ. Essentially, He adopts us:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Ephesians 1:5)

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (Galatians 4:3-7)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:14-16)

Who are the sons of God? Those led by the Spirit of God, not those descended from Adam, Abraham or anyone else. There's more I could say and more verses I could quote on this, but I don't want to make this post too long. So I will now move on to the question of why God prohibited marriages between Israelites and non-Israelites.

The main reason why God forbade marriage between the people of Israel and the nations around them had to do with idolatry. We see this explained in Exodus 34:

Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. (Exodus 34:12-16)

It is very plainly stated there that if Israelites married women from pagan nations, those women would lead their husbands astray into their wicked idolatrous practices. Indeed, this is EXACTLY what happened to Solomon:

But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. (1 Kings 11:1-6)

There is no mention in this passage of Solomon marrying women of other "races". The entire focus is on the spiritual consequences of marrying pagan women. Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived (see 1 Kings 4:30-31). He wrote, or had a significant hand in, three books of the Bible (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon). In many respects, he was a great man of God. Yet when he got involved with pagan women, it caused him great spiritual harm, and had consequences for Israel as a whole too.

When Nehemiah rebukes the Israelites for marrying "strange wives" (i.e. women from foreign nations), he specifically references Solomon's sin:

Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. (Nehemiah 13:26)

The word "outlandish" there just means foreign. It has nothing to do with the modern meaning of outlandish. Solomon's sin was NOT marrying women of a different race or nationality, but marrying women who turned his heart away from God and towards idols. If they had been godly women, his marriages to them would have been fine. But they were wicked and ungodly, and the spiritual corruption that led to is what God wanted to protect His people from when He told His people not to marry women from the pagan nations surrounding Israel.

The same problem existed in Ezra's day:

Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. (Ezra 9:1-2)

So the real issue was not marriage between people whose skin might have been a different colour, but marriage between people who were supposed to be God's holy people and people who worshipped false gods and indulged in all kinds of wicked practices. Due to marrying pagan women, the people of Israel were copying the abominations of their heathen neighbours. This was corrupting the "holy seed". The corruption was spiritual, not physical. Incidentally, one of God's commandments to Israel was to be holy:

For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. (Leviticus 11:45)

Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. (Leviticus 19:2)

Born-again Christians are given the same commandment in the New Testament:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16)

Being holy has nothing to do with any kind of racial "purity", but rather separating from sin, the world and so on. Think of it this way: holiness is a bit like a garment that is completely clean, without even a single speck of dirt on it. As soon as any dirt gets on that garment though, it is no longer clean. Even if there is only a small amount of dirt, that garment will be considered dirty. Holiness is about being as spiritually clean as you possibly can, and avoiding (as far as possible) being contaminated by sinful practices and philosophies. Israel was destroying its holiness by mingling with the world (in the form of its men marrying pagan women). It has nothing whatsoever to do with supposedly racially pure marriage (the marriage of Boaz and Ruth, among others, proves that). In any case, there really are no races as such. Skin colour is just a variation like hair colour and eye colour. God has made us all "one blood":

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation (Acts 17:26)

Spiritually speaking, there are no racial distinctions (or distinctions of any other kind) between those who are in Christ:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 - "Greek" in this context means Gentile)

No one will be excluded from Heaven on the basis of their skin colour or nationality:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-10)

This is talking about saved saints of God. ALL nations, kindreds, people and tongues are represented. That includes any and all people that the Christian Identity movement claims to be descendants of Canaanites, or worse, descendants of the serpent. So for a white person to marry a black person, or whatever, is not an issue at all. It's only a problem if one is saved and the other is not. Moses married an Ethiopian woman (see Numbers 12:1). Boaz, an Israelite man, married Ruth, a woman of Moab. This was normally forbidden, but because Ruth was converted to the true God, her marriage to Boaz was acceptable in God's eyes. Had Ruth been a pagan leading Boaz astray, it would have been wrong. But she wasn't, and she ended up becoming grandmother to King David and an ancestor of Christ (in fact, she's one of just two women mentioned in Matthew's geneaology, and the other was Rahab, mother of Boaz and also from a pagan nation originally).

As to the law of the Old Testament, Christians are not subject to it, but if you want to obey one part of the Law, you have to obey all of it (which no one can do):

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:1-6)

This passage is using the example of being circumcised, which was a requirement for Jewish males under the Old Covenant. The word "circumcision" is also used to refer to Jews, while "uncircumcision" can mean Gentiles. This passage is one of several that refutes legalism (which essentially means living in obedience to the Law, and making that a requirement of salvation). Just as you don't have to be circumcised nowadays, you don't have to concern yourself with laws regarding marriage to foreign women.

Anyway, to apply all this to your situation: unless you are a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, you are not an Israelite. And your lady friend is almost certainly not descended from Canaanites. However, even if you could trace your lineage back to the Jewish patriarchs (meaning you were physically Jewish), marrying a Japanese woman (or whatever ethnicity this lady happens to be, even if she DOES have Canaanite ancestors) is not going to be a problem. There is no sin in this. You are not breaking any laws of God by marrying a woman of another nationality or ethnicity. In any case, since you're not Jewish, the laws forbidding Israelites from marrying foreign women don't even apply to you. However, if one of you is saved and the other isn't, THEN there's a problem. Then you have an unequal yoke situation (see 2 Corinthians 6:14-18). So your main concern should be that. Are you both saved? If so, great, go ahead and get married (if you are both confident that this is God's will for you, and that there are no Biblical impediments to it). Although even if you are both saved, make absolutely certain that you're on the same page spiritually. Suffice it to say, you're not going to break any of God's laws by marrying a woman whose skin colour happens to be different to your own (if she is indeed Japanese or otherwise "non-white").

There's quite a lot more ground I could cover, and more Scriptures I could quote on this, but I think I've written enough for now. I hope this goes some way to answering your concerns. As Ellie says though, it would help if you could be more specific about your concerns regarding this lady and your hopes of marrying her. I do apologise if I've misunderstood the gist of your question, but I hope this post has still been helpful to you. Incidentally, I would advise you to separate yourself from the Christian Identity movement, because it is really quite heretical. And pretty racist, too - not that I am in any way accusing you of being racist. You don't come across that way at all. But the CI movement does teach a number of things that are racist. More importantly though, it teaches things that fly quite utterly in the face of God's Word, and that is why you need to get away from it and its influences on you.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17)

Zoologistkid

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2023, 06:28:53 PM »
Quote
I've come across the Christian Identity movement before (mainly in the form of British Israelism), and have just been refreshing my knowledge of it. One of its core teachings (and heresies) is the claim that Aryans rather than Jews are God's chosen race. People involved in this movement believe that white Europeans are the true Israelites and that the Jews are descendants of Canaanites, who in turn are descendants of Cain. They allege that Cain was a "cursed hybrid" of an illicit union between Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden. (I'm not sure whether every CI person believes this, but a great many do.)

Wait a second, are they (the CI movement) claiming that the children of Cain are alive today? That is impossible because all of mankind perished in the flood except for Noah and his family. Noah wasn't a descendant of Cain, so Cain could not have been the father of the Canaanites.
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. Genesis 7:21-23

To be exact, He was a descendant of Seth, not Cain:
Adam, Sheth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered, Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 1 Chronicles 1:1-4

Another thing is, as Rowan rightly pointed out, it does not matter what we are and what background we have.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28
This can be seen in the fact that Jesus Christ had disciples from several backgrounds. He had fishermen, a doctor, a tax collector, and even a Canaanite as His disciples.
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Matthew 10:2-4
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 06:46:56 PM by Zoologistkid »
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26 Who can say that man is an animal?

Woodpot

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2023, 08:32:19 PM »
You guys have given me quite a lot to think about here. I don't have the time to process it all and write about it just now (it's 10:30am now, and work is beginning). So, I'm printing this out, along with the teaching on the Sabbath and tithing, and will go over everything thoroughly this weekend.

someguy85

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2023, 08:38:03 AM »
Probably the best thing for it Travis, and this is something I told my wife after she got saved, was that it doesn't matter what I say, or what a pastor says or any other person claiming to be a teacher, you have to read the bible for yourself (even if it's just going through the audio book while you're driving to and from work,) if what anyone says contradicts the bible, then it's the bible that wins out. All of the cults out there reveal themselves to have beliefs contradictory to the bible in one way or another, and if what Rowan said is correct and they believe in "racial purity" (which makes no sense at all, because what we call races is merely the result of the human body adapting to it's environment over long periods of time, if God didn't want people of different skin colours and backgrounds to be able to breed with one another, he would have made it impossible by natural means.) Then they sound no different in some of the beliefs preached in Mormonism and 7th day Adventism.

While it's not openly taught to most mormons, their doctrine classes humans with white skin as the human form of angels who fought valiantly in the war in heaven before Lucifer was cast out, and babies born with black skin as incarnations of the angels who refused to pick a side until the war was over. (For bonus points, look up mormon blood atonement, where there are 5 sins that the blood of Christ can never atone for, murder, adultery, homosexuality, apostacy from the temple and marrying a black person, so if I joined, by old mormon law, they'd have to kill me.)

I'm pretty sure Ellen G White tried explaining other skin colours as an "amalgamation" of breeding between people and animals, which on a genetic level doesn't make any sense.

Going back to your first question though, yes, Jesus did say he came to fulfil the law, not to destroy it. The law was fulfilled when his work was finished on the cross. If this group is insisting that the old law must be followed, then that would mean they would have to keep the letter of the law regarding the sabbath (which in modern day and world is virtually impossible, even more so if they insist you attend a church building every sabbath, then it really is impossible.) They would have to be performing blood sacrifices with a cow, goat, lamb or dove at an alter as Israel was commanded to in the desert, and would have to wash their clothes and wash their hands, and basically be quarantined until nightfall if they happened to touch a dead body (human or an animal carcass that was found somewhere.), engage in the natural obligations as man and wife, or even touch a living "unclean" animal.

Galatians 2:4 describes a similar situation:

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

Actually I think later on in Chapter 4 it kind of puts the whole thing into perspective as what happens when we become Christians.

4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

in Romans it also says how we are now in the dispensation of Grace

6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Yes, there are still rules to follow, but when we are born again, we want to remove sin from our lives and if we have something in our lives that is sin that we do not know about, God is graceful to show us step by step why we should reject it and forsake it. I had it happen to me when I was involved in martial arts, the more time went on it was like things were getting in the way of me going to training sessions, I had a compulsion to destroy my training uniforms and grading papers but I couldn't explain why...it took another four or five years before I finally came across someone who put it into perspective and broke down why martial arts are so spiritually dangerous, and even now, I get times where I think it'd be good or healthy to go back to something like that, but then I remember how many styles we have today are descended from esotericism in one way or another, it's easier just to avoid doing it entirely.

In sort I'd say be very wary of them, if someone wants to try following the letter of Mosaic law then I won't get in their way, but that is a HEAVY burden to bare. I have seen a lot of people who have come out of the occult or other forms of very deep darkness only to be pulled asside into other cults such as the Hebrew Roots movement or 7th Day Adventism, which are both very legalistic cults where they require you to follow the letter of the law all the time or you risk losing your "salvation", which I think is exceptionally cruel and also undermines the power and mercy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Romans: {11:3} Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. {11:4} But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Woodpot

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2023, 05:39:42 AM »
Ellie, I had previously read the article on keeping the tithe, so that I am forewarned against being coerced into such practices. The church building which my lady friend attends includes an optional donation time in their Sunday service, which makes me uncomfortable, but they also do proper accounting of all monies received, and announce everything to the members, so that, although I am wary of them, I don’t get the impression anything underhanded is going on there. Moving on, the article on Christians keeping the Sabbath was extremely helpful in this case. In particular the scripture of Colossians 2:14:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:13,14:
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


and Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Though my initial post was unfortunately cryptic, you and Rowan understood my concerns very well. These scriptures make it clearer to me what it means that Christ has fulfilled the Law, that the past ordinances were done away with; that the new covenant is about loving God and our neighbors, and that any other commandments are stated in Romans 13:9. I can understand Exodus 34:12-16 to mean that marriage involving idolaters was explicitly forbidden, and Revelation 7:9-10 answered any remaining doubts I had regarding the race issue. Incidentally, I am interested in the dietary and farming laws, and I’d like to discuss this at some future point in time. My lady friend is indeed Japanese, and I am indeed white. She is also very devout, and we are spiritually on the same page, so to speak. So that, based on this scriptural evidence, and the result of our prayers, I have tentatively asked her to be with me, and she has accepted. Next week I’ll make her the official overture to join together in Christ until the day that one or the other of us dies. I think this solves the problems I was having, and thank you all very much for helping me out.

Rowan, I don’t mean to be rude, but I’m trying to focus on learning of the Gospel before venturing out into this kind of territory, so I don’t want to give it any more study time before I finish reading through the Bible, but I will say that serpent seed is thematically fascinating. Its appeal is in its ability to ascribe a reasoning as to why so much of the world is under Satan’s influence. Personally, I’m not thinking that there are any people with reptilian blood in their veins, and as for CI, it is more focused on the idea that the serpent is metaphorical for a fallen angel, thus producing a corrupted bloodline, which, depending on the concentration of corruption in one’s veins, results in either more or less destructive behavior in the individual. But, this is a digression that would best be discussed in another thread, at another time. I’m sorry, but I’m not ready to talk about it in any depth.

(This thread is about to go in a different direction)

I have absolutely no experience with Mormonism or 7th Day Adventism, but from what you posted about them, they don’t seem Biblically based. You guys mention Hebrew Roots cults every now and then, and they seem to be ignoring Christ and His sacrifice, which I understand better now thanks to your help. Rowan said in his reply “Being holy has nothing to do with any kind of racial purity, but rather separating from sin…”, and Chris said “if God didn't want people of different skin colours and backgrounds to be able to breed with one another, he would have made it impossible by natural means”, and I agree with these ideas. But then you said that there really are no races as such, and then Chris echoed the sentiment with “what we call races is merely the result of the human body adapting to it's environment over long periods of time.” -I don’t understand this- it sounds an awful lot like evolution to me. How long a period of time are we talking about? For instance, I’m not sure how long the Aborigines have been in Australia, but can you imagine that in five hundred years all the whites and Asians living in Australia will have gradually become Aborigines? Just because of the hot desert environment? Is that the deciding factor? If it is, then the natives of the hot desert environments of Central America should be black as well, but they aren’t. They’re different people. Or to say it a different way, suppose the population of a village in Congo moved to Finland and never interbred with anyone outside of the original villager population; would they eventually become white people? I seriously doubt that, although I’m open to correction if I’m wrong about this. In the most extreme example I can think of: What if half of the world’s population moved to Tunisia, and the other half moved to Sicily. It is only about 160 kilometers across the Mediterranean at that point. Are we to suppose that everyone on the African continent will become black-skinned, and that the Italian side will all become white-skinned? If God wants, then He can certainly cause whites to become blacks, but I get the impression that God doesn’t like breaking the rules He has set for us here on Earth. He has given us a very sensible Earth on which to live, setting up sensible rules for us to follow, and provided us with a very sensible Book of teachings. So that, the easy way to explain the different peoples is that God made all the races, as they are now, from the very beginning, and put them in varying places around the world. If we start talking about adaptations, and drastic morphological changes taking place over time, isn’t this more or less the same argument that evolutionists put forth? Do Indian tigers become Siberian tigers simply by virtue of differing environmental factors?

Hmm, this might end up belonging in a different thread as well, but I’d like to take this opportunity to opine on and ask for discussion on the Flood, since it was brought up and it’s related to the topic. There are many points that remain unresolved in my mind. I will try to outline my argument. As we know, God makes kind after kind, each reproducing according to innate characteristics which He has decided upon.

Genesis 1:24- And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

This is common sense for us, as we know that evolution is a farce. Thus, we can say that cats make cats only, dogs make dogs only, and so on. Tigers don’t become cats, and dinosaurs don’t become birds. How then do we account for Whites, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, American Indians, Amazon jungle Indians, Australian Aborigines, Malaysians, Mongolians, Samoans, and  the very distinct types of Africans all living today, unless all these groups were represented in pairs on the Ark? Unless there are Chinese giving birth to Congolese, then it is dumbfounding to think that all peoples came from 8 individuals, but this same argument can and should be taken back to the Garden of Eden. Please hear me out.

Genesis 1:26-28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Man is created here in Genesis 1, on the 6th day. And then this happens on the 8th day, after God has rested:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

I’m thinking this means that there were two separate creation events for mankind. The first taking place on the sixth day, consisting of men and women. The second took place on the 8th day, consisting of Adam and Eve. If this reading is correct, then all the differing peoples of mankind can be accounted for, from the very beginning.
This reasoning helps us with the Flood as well, as there is a further logistical problem we need to solve. Noah and his family would have had to travel over the entire planet in the time before the flood was to come to get all the locally endemic species: To south Australia to pick up kangaroos and penguins. To South Africa to pick up yet different penguins. To the far north for polar bears, to Borneo for orangutans, to the Amazon for lemurs and tree frogs, to the Chilean heights for condors, to Galapagos for tortoises, etc. Moreover, after the waters resided, they would have had to travel back to each of these destinations to drop off all the animals again.

Then there is the added issue of the flora. Noah would have had to travel to the Americas to gather tomatoes and potatoes and corn, Africa to gather aloe vera and watermelons, Thailand to get rosewood trees, and so on, otherwise they wouldn’t exist today. Since the flood covered the land for 10 months, therefore all plant life on earth would have died. All of it. Even the microbiota in the soil. With water-logged, rotted and dead seeds, regeneration would have been impossible, and the olive leaf which the bird found after 10 months of submersion could not have existed, as it would have rotted away by that time.

Genesis 7:21-23
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


I way I read this passage there is no mention of aquatic life being destroyed, although since fish and whales are mentioned earlier in Genesis, and since the flood was of fresh water, the concentration of saline in the ocean would have been disrupted to the point of suffocation of all salt-water fish, sharks, crustaceans, jellies, etc. So that Noah would have had to dive to the depths of all the oceans to gather every sea creature onto the Ark in some kind of salt water aquarium in order to save them. Plus, since the whole earth must have been covered under six miles- the height of Everest, assuming that Everest existed back then:

Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

that would mean that the level of the abyss would have risen dramatically, effectively destroying nearly all aquatic plants through lack of sunlight, as well as the aforementioned saline imbalance. The fresh water fish likewise would have been displaced with the rising waters, disrupted by the influx of salty seawater, and with no guarantee that they would be returned to their original locations when the waters receded, there would have been massive extinctions of all fresh water animal life, as well as the entirety of fresh water plant life.
In summary, Noah would have had to go to every country on earth to gather the indigenous flora and fauna and microbiota in all the soils, within the time allotted him by God, all whilst being preoccupied building a gigantic boat, and then to go back to each specific location afterward to return them all, since many can only live in their respective habitats, but as far as I know there is no record of kangaroo migration back from the Mediterranean to Australia, and I don’t know of any record of Noah or his family traveling to return all these lifeforms to their original locales. We could entertain the idea that all the continents were conjoined at the time, and so it would have been easier to traverse all that distance. But even then, the distance is too considerable, the mountains too high, the sea too deep for that to be plausible. And there are still all the different humans to consider. God makes kind after kind. So that, Chinese people can’t give birth to blacks, Indians to whites, and so on. I’ll pose the question again: If we believe that whites can eventually become blacks, based on changes in climatic conditions, then aren’t we basically believing in the false religion of evolutionism?

If the above conjecture is correct, I can think of only two things that could have happened. One option is that the flood was worldwide, but Noah failed to save everything, after which God re-created everything which Noah missed. In this case of a single, world-wide flood, there must be a second Genesis event to re-create all flora, fauna, and humanity, the whole-world over. But this event is not recorded in Scripture, even though it would have been incredibly important to do so.

The other option is that the flood was localized, and he did save everything locally. This is the more logical to me, since there is no mention of aquatic life being destroyed, and more importantly, since the dove finds the olive leaf.
….
……Wow, this became a lot longer than I thought it would. While writing it out, I realized that the idea that not everyone is descended from the Ark might be a point of contention, but this is just my honest interpretation of the Scripture. Thank you for reading, and please let’s discuss it, and correct me on any mistakes I may have made.

creationliberty

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2023, 07:23:39 AM »
Based on my understanding of what you told us, you were only saved a few weeks ago at the most. Is that right?

What you're attempting to do is take all the things you previously thought you understood (while blinded without the Holy Spirit), and then apply them now that you think you have understanding. These are not things that you are ready to tackle yet, which is why I haven't gone into details trying to answer all of your points like others have done.

I can already tell you based on what I've seen, you have not yet had enough time to be focusing on ANYTHING as complex as what you're trying to do right now. Discernment and understanding doesn't magically get infused into you the moment you're born again. Those things take time:

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:14


You don't learn how to swim by diving into the deep end. You don't learn how to read by starting with Shakespeare. You don't learn the basics of arithmetic by joining a calculus class. What you need to do is get yourself away from all of this junk that you've been involved with, separate yourself from others who are trying to convince you of things, humble yourself to a point where you say "Despite all that I've learned in my life, I don't know much of anything concerning Biblical doctrine," and start with the basics in Scripture. (Recommended: Matthew > Acts > Romans > etc)

Once you get to Acts, I've got some notes published on my website that can help you with some of the more complex verses. It's there if you want it:
https://www.creationliberty.com/articles.php#Commentary
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 07:26:01 AM by creationliberty »
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Woodpot

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2023, 08:05:46 AM »
Wow, what a quick reply! I hadn't anticipated that.
Yes, it's true that I was only recently saved (November 5th).
I'm taking your comments to heart, Chris. I just downloaded your notes on the book of Acts, which I am nearly finished reading, so it is good timing for review. I'll take a break from posting anything else, and embarassing myself further, at least until after I've completed my study of Acts- maybe a week or two.

Apologies to anyone reading this. It seems I've gotten in over my head. As for what's going through my head at the moment, I'm wondering if much of what I had been believing is mistaken. My ex-wife would sometimes comment: "You're always looking for a God to follow" In regards to my inclination to listen to and be deceived by teachers and bosses.

I would ask this favor of you guys: Please don't take advantage of me and deceive me. I don't say this because I distrust you, I say this because I have opened up to you all, and I'm easily scarred.

Thank you all. I continue praying for humility, contrition, and guidance.


Zoologistkid

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2023, 11:26:06 AM »
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [a way of thinking] and vain deceit [useless lies], after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - Colossians 2:8

Rudiment: A first principle or element; that which is to be first learnt; as the rudiments of learning or science. Articulate sounds are the rudiments of language; letters or characters are the rudiments of written language; the primary rules of any art or science are its rudiments. Hence instruction in the rudiments of any art or science, constitutes the beginning of education in that art or science.

Quote
Apologies to anyone reading this. It seems I've gotten in over my head. As for what's going through my head at the moment, I'm wondering if much of what I had been believing is mistaken. My ex-wife would sometimes comment: "You're always looking for a God to follow" In regards to my inclination to listen to and be deceived by teachers and bosses.

Travis, the problem with what you've written is that you're trying to interpret the Bible according to your rudiment (the first things you've learned) from the world. This is something we all have done but those things can become a problem. However, I believe that you can and will grow out of your rudiment but it will take some time. So continue to study for and pray for understanding.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26 Who can say that man is an animal?

creationliberty

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2023, 06:29:22 PM »
I would ask this favor of you guys: Please don't take advantage of me and deceive me. I don't say this because I distrust you, I say this because I have opened up to you all, and I'm easily scarred.
You can never trust that someone will not deceive you. That's why, instead of me telling you what to believe, I sent you to the Scriptures (because I trust the Holy Ghost to guide Christians where they ought to be), and simply offered some notes if you needed some extra assistance. It's much harder to be deceived when you study on your own.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
-2Ti 2:15
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Woodpot

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Re: I don't know what to do...
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2023, 09:05:50 AM »
After my last post I took the time to continue reading through Acts, as well as Christopher’s commentary on Acts. Having finished both, I am moving on to Romans.

I admit I was surprised by the response to my last post. I had thought that the argument was logically sound, and so I thought it would be well received. For it to be rebuked caused me to deeply reconsider. To be clear, I have not gone back to reading any doctrine except for Acts and now Romans, and I have not communicated in any way with anything C.I. I am praying daily for humility, guidance, and understanding. Thank you both for your comments. Frankly, I am still confused about being deceived by the rudiments of the world. In any case, I am studying by myself for now. My faith is still weak, and the consequences are noticeable. (I’d like to summarize my reading of Acts, but it will have to wait for the next post. I had already written the rest of this post several days ago. But it’s been a long time since I last posted, and wanted to check in.)

Concurrent to my study of Acts, there were situations developing around me, in the form of the impending Christ Rejection holiday. The preacher at the church building, which my lady friend attends, had announced his desire to not only have a Christmas event, but also to begin Charismatic ‘tongues’ sessions. My friend was rightly alarmed at these announcements, and brought her concerns to me. I thank God that He provided the useful resources available on this site, which I was able to share with her. Now she understands the gravity of the situation at that church building, and she brought the matter to the preacher and his wife. But they have tried to persuade her into accepting the Christmas event. I have faith that she won’t be deceived by it, but I am nervous to be confronted with this problem, having just recently come to Christ.

Sandwiched in between, on the morning of December 4th, my lady friend and I were discussing our faith outside of my newly-acquired home. We were able to come to an accord regarding our faith, and I asked her to be my sister in Christ, and wife together until the end, and she agreed. This discussion was based off of our prayers, and in no small part attributable to the advice I received from all at this forum, to which I give thanks to God. As if this weren’t enough, soon after this we were discussing how to dispose of all the old appliances which were littered around the property. Not 5 minutes after this conversation, a man drove by asking if we had any old appliances we didn’t need. He gladly took all the trash we had, at absolutely no cost to us. As our road is a little-traveled mountain road, we couldn’t but to give thanks to God for this serendipity. As both she and I are recently come to Christ, I am not sure what to think of it, except that, the power of prayer is great indeed. Truly, God hears our needs, and provides. Nevertheless, each time it happens, it’s astonishing to me. I share this story with you all as testament to the power and goodwill of our creator.

I am quite busy recently, but hope to be able to post again soon. Thanks for reading this.