Chris' introduction

[someguy85]

Umm...hello,

I'm really not sure where to start, but I was born into a Christian family, and even though I was told I was saved at a young age and we had parts of the Autherised version (KJV) read to myself and my brother when we were children, I couldn't really point to a repentant point in my life until 2020 when I tried reaching out to an assistant pastor at a baptist church. I actually came across the CLE website after a google search looking up what a very anti-theistic work manager tried saying that the bible condoned and encouraged slavery (of course that's not true, he was probably reading "The Message" version or some other horrendous attempt at a translation). At that meeting with the assistant pastor I did feel a lot of grief, sorrow and pain over the fact I had broken all of God's laws and at this point I did ask Jesus Christ to come into my life and save me by the power of his shed blood and the power of God. I didn't get what had really happened though until I heard Chris' teachings on repentance and even though I'd never really been a church goer and even felt uncomfortable in a good number of church buildings I'd tried attending, I realised how few people actually teach what is actually involved in the conversion process and someone actually being born again. Too many teach that it's enough to believe, but what does belief matter if you don't understand the gravity of sin, the breaking of God's laws and what judgement awaits the lost...and what Jesus Christ actually went through to save us.

I don't know if it adds much to the conversation listing off some of the things I've done pre-salvation but I can definitely say that from the things I've had experience with, Chris Johnson is definitely telling the truth with these teachings, but the bible is still the canon of scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, written over thousands of years and is the word of God, everything that anyone says should be tested against the bible, and I believe that any born again believer should make a concerted effort to study the bible, this is a good way to pick up on false teachers too.

This feels a little weird posting this online, because I know that at the end of the day, no one on the forum knows me, and you have every right to be wary of new-comers, to say nothing of some of the other people who have been trying to spread weird ideas and doctrines on said forum...but from everything I've seen, I'm more likely to find down to earth and intelligent conversation on doctrine and other subjects here, more than anywhere else I've seen.

Not sure how to end this, but I suppose thanking you for reading is one way. Thanks.

[Ellie]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the introduction.

I'm really not sure where to start, but I was born into a Christian family, and even though I was told I was saved at a young age and we had parts of the Autherised version (KJV) read to myself and my brother when we were children, I couldn't really point to a repentant point in my life until 2020 when I tried reaching out to an assistant pastor at a baptist church. I actually came across the CLE website after a google search looking up what a very anti-theistic work manager tried saying that the bible condoned and encouraged slavery (of course that's not true, he was probably reading "The Message" version or some other horrendous attempt at a translation). At that meeting with the assistant pastor I did feel a lot of grief, sorrow and pain over the fact I had broken all of God's laws and at this point I did ask Jesus Christ to come into my life and save me by the power of his shed blood and the power of God.

Out of curiosity, was it something that you and the pastor were discussing that caused you to come to repentance of your sins? Or was it just something that came up in your own thoughts as the meeting was happening? And also, since you said you grew up in a Christian family, does that mean they have come to repentance as well? Or do they just claim to be Christians? I understand if you're not sure at this point (sometimes it can take a little time to discern), but I was just wondering since you mentioned that.

I didn't get what had really happened though until I heard Chris' teachings on repentance and even though I'd never really been a church goer and even felt uncomfortable in a good number of church buildings I'd tried attending, I realised how few people actually teach what is actually involved in the conversion process and someone actually being born again. Too many teach that it's enough to believe, but what does belief matter if you don't understand the gravity of sin, the breaking of God's laws and what judgement awaits the lost...and what Jesus Christ actually went through to save us.

I can definitely relate--I didn't know what happened to me either on the day I was saved till I read Chris' teaching on repentance, but it made much more sense after that. And it truly doesn't make sense to just believe in Christ if you don't even have a full understanding of why you need to have that faith to begin with. Which is why the Law is the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, since we can then understand our wickedness and are broken down in sorrow over it. Once you understand repentance it makes so many other doctrines about salvation much more clear, like the doctrine of false converts, true faith vs fake faith, and how works factor into a Christian's life after salvation. It's quite interesting how many people claim to be Christians but they unknowingly have their faith in their own works and a fake faith in Christ, or even faith in a false Christ.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. - Galatians 3:24

This feels a little weird posting this online, because I know that at the end of the day, no one on the forum knows me, and you have every right to be wary of new-comers, to say nothing of some of the other people who have been trying to spread weird ideas and doctrines on said forum...but from everything I've seen, I'm more likely to find down to earth and intelligent conversation on doctrine and other subjects here, more than anywhere else I've seen.

Yep, the only reason why most people do not end up getting a welcome with open arms when they join is because they are coming in with pretense, false doctrine, or some other clear issue that has to be addressed by someone here, and then they usually get defensive and don't accept the rebuke (because they are not coming in with that humility of repentance). But if someone comes in like you have, very reasonable with what sounds like a true testimony of repentance and faith then we don't have much reason to be very wary. Hopefully you enjoy it here and get fellowship if that's what you're looking for. 

[someguy85]

"Out of curiosity, was it something that you and the pastor were discussing that caused you to come to repentance of your sins? Or was it just something that came up in your own thoughts as the meeting was happening? And also, since you said you grew up in a Christian family, does that mean they have come to repentance as well? Or do they just claim to be Christians? I understand if you're not sure at this point (sometimes it can take a little time to discern), but I was just wondering since you mentioned that."

It was actually something I asked for help with and while he didn't have any answers on that end he was wondering if I was actually saved and ended up going through the law with me. As for my family, my mother and father said they were saved before I was born, while my dad died over 12 years ago, I actually don't know for certain, definitely a subject I need to raise with my mum and brother though, my mum definitely shows charity and patience and other fruits of the spirit, but I should at least try and figure out if that's because she's saved or if she's trying to work that into her life to try and show it...I doubt it's the latter but better to be certain.

"I can definitely relate--I didn't know what happened to me either on the day I was saved till I read Chris' teaching on repentance, but it made much more sense after that. And it truly doesn't make sense to just believe in Christ if you don't even have a full understanding of why you need to have that faith to begin with. Which is why the Law is the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, since we can then understand our wickedness and are broken down in sorrow over it. Once you understand repentance it makes so many other doctrines about salvation much more clear, like the doctrine of false converts, true faith vs fake faith, and how works factor into a Christian's life after salvation. It's quite interesting how many people claim to be Christians but they unknowingly have their faith in their own works and a fake faith in Christ, or even faith in a false Christ.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. - Galatians 3:24"

I think the reason why so many people don't understand the concept of repentance is because so many have tried to complicate it or make it so vague that it could apply to anyone, and I don't believe this is by any means an accident as it says in 1 Corinthians 14:33: "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." That's to say nothing of the greed that some pastors have for a payday that they'd ditch any part of the bible and core doctrine to make sure they don't turn people away. In fact that's one reason I'm no longer at the church I first tried to go to long term. For a start, despite not being certain about being born again until then, I did have a decent amount of knowledge about cults, and I could spot at least 3 masons in the congregation, I tried giving the pastor a book on freemasonry and why it's dangerous, never heard anything more about it. Told the assistant pastor and while he sound like he wouldn't condone anyone being involved in such a thing, he didn't believe me that the three people I told him about would be involved in that...interesting that they were deacons, but I also remember hearing that if a related sect, The Southern Baptist convention ever kicked out the freemasons, they'd lose a good 75% of their membership basis. Heard a testimony from a high ranking former witch at one point that apparently the masons aren't the only ones targeting churches that are actually effective either, so it wouldn't have surprised me if there were other plants from other cults but I had no proof so it was never brought up with anyone. Plus it didn't help that they loosely honoured Christmas as a time of year, thanks to a number of reasons I really don't like Christmas, and listening to carols makes my skin crawl...I haven't been back in a while and I haven't had anyone messaging me asking so I guess that was an easy clean break.

"Yep, the only reason why most people do not end up getting a welcome with open arms when they join is because they are coming in with pretense, false doctrine, or some other clear issue that has to be addressed by someone here, and then they usually get defensive and don't accept the rebuke (because they are not coming in with that humility of repentance). But if someone comes in like you have, very reasonable with what sounds like a true testimony of repentance and faith then we don't have much reason to be very wary. Hopefully you enjoy it here and get fellowship if that's what you're looking for.  "

I hope I do too, and I've read some of the "wild e-mails" and...umm...wow...it doesn't really surprise me what some people try and push, but it does make me wonder if they've ever read the bible (it took me about 6 years to do my first read through cover to cover, I'm not a huge reader but I at least like to go for one chapter a day plus listening to it via audio files too.) because there are a lot of times where the doctrines they try and push can be shot down with a few, and in some cases multiple short verses. Then again given how many church buildings these days have all the doctrinal stability of an old wet noodle, and others love marketing on sensationalism, it's no surprise that doctrine these days is in an unprecedented mess, and even then that doesn't feel like an accurate description of the tip of the iceberg.

I know respecting persons is sin so I guess a better way to put it definitely adds credibility to what someone says for me when they can put it in simple and easy to understand terms (after all, if you look at it, the bible does), and if you ask them it doesn't sound like they're a tape recorder put on loop spouting something they don't really understand. I know that no one likes to be rebuked and a lot of people don't even like the conflict that arises from rebuking someone but it's necessary, and it certainly is a biblical commandment. I try to look at it as, yes being corrected isn't easy, but if it's in line with the bible then take it in and understand it, because it is for our own good. If it contradicts the bible then bin it like off food, because there's every chance it won't be good for you.

Thanks for the reply, I hope I can be part of more discussions on here, it's definitely refreshing to have conversations with people who aren't putting on a performance, one thing I used to be involved with was studying the "dramatic arts" and I guess it made it a little easier to spot a performance, and there are way too many people who aren't good actors/liars, and conversing with them always put me on edge.

[creationliberty]

"why so many people don't understand the concept of repentance is because so many have tried to... make it so vague that it could apply to anyone"

This.

[someguy85]

Well I think the time I began to understand it is when it started dawning on me that the line that so many christians use "God's free love gift" didn't quite go in line with what I'd read in the bible, eg: MANY times when Jesus gave grace to the humble and the lowly and rebuked the proud...might sound weird but let me explain. No, you can't work your way towards salvation because it's by grace through faith as Ephesians 2:8-9 says. But I started thinking the whole "free love gift" was a misnomer, it requires someone giving up what some don't have, and what some will never give up...pride. The very thing that caused the fall of Lucifer, the humbling of Nebuchadnezzar, and is listed in a number of places as being a very bad thing, probably the best example people know is Proverbs  16:18 "Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.", or at least the best way to sum up the theme of pride in the bible.

And look at the world we live in today, it's in physical and spiritual ruin (I know, there's worse to come,) and so many people are out to serve themselves and lift themselves up...and for what? When it's all going to burn? There are times where I've been proud in my life, and sought after positions of fame and fortune, and it almost cost me everything.

[creationliberty]

For me, at first, it wasn't even a perception of all the world, but rather, it was a simple process of logic: If the Gospel of Salvation is just "believe on Jesus," then why does Jesus turn away "believers on Jesus" to hell?

Most churchgoers do not even want to start discussing that question, let alone answer it, but my journey to answer it led me to a complete understanding of the Gospel of Salvation, and that it all happened to me without my understanding of what it was, and despite 20 years of church-ianity indoctrination.

The difference is that disciples of Christ do not care what the answer is, they just want the answer because they want what Jesus Christ is offering. The world is very concerned to not hear any answer that disagrees with their preconceived beliefs, and that, in my opinion, is one of the major red flags when discerning a false convert.

[someguy85]

Agreed, it's not something they want to discuss, because it's far from comfortable to even think that everything you used to know, told to you by people you thought were trustworthy was nothing but an illusion based on tradition, or worse yet, you were lied to, let alone that you bought into it for years, and in many cases even decades. When the bottom drops out, and you start losing things you thought were important, only Jesus can catch you.

I think this is what scares a lot of people about what Jesus taught when he said in Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household."

They also probably don't like how selfish people will get when tough times come either, summed up well in Proverbs 28:21 "To have respect of persons [is] not good: for for a piece of bread [that] man will transgress." Someone you've known your whole life might sell you out for nothing. Jesus promised he would never let you go, and I can say for sure he hasn't, even through all the wicked garbage I've been involved in, through all my own pride, stubbornness and so many other faults...he has provided all my needs, he has been merciful, there are things that have come at me in my life that I was ready to say "fine, if this is the end, then this is the end"...but he kept his promise, and every time I think of Pslam 91, especially verse 7: "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee."

[Timothy]

Too many teach that it's enough to believe, but what does belief matter if you don't understand the gravity of sin, the breaking of God's laws and what judgement awaits the lost...and what Jesus Christ actually went through to save us.

Yeah. They like to focus on belief and they'll claim they believe Christ died for their sins but it's as if they don't want to believe that their sins are worthy of death in hell. They skip that part about the gravity of their sin and they make light of it. The difference between them and the true, born again Christians is the repentance. The result of what they teach is that you get all of these false converts that treat Jesus as if He is a band-aid to a common problem rather than precious salvation.

When I was younger, there were a few times that my dad (who is a false convert) told me that all have sinned and that Christ died for our sins, and that's definitely true, but it was never taught to me with that gravity of sin. He never told me I was going to hell for my sins and he talked of sin as if it were the common cold rather than something I'd have to give account to at judgement. It's not that I'm blaming my dad for me not getting saved when I was younger, but it's just an example of how they lack that gravity of sin. It wasn't until I understood how wretched I am that I came to repentance as it seems you have too.

[someguy85]

Definitely the case, and I see it all too often when I hear any of the "popular" preachers talk (honestly, comparing it with the bible, if a preacher is popular he's doing something wrong, but anyway)...they avoid taking a definitive stand on any divisive topics, some will say that Jesus Christ is not the only way, and they love using buzz words to get butts on seats, because that's all they really care about.

I've found it to be an odd consistency when talking with those who are lost but are too bound to their pride...they don't like the idea that they might be, let alone are wrong on topics, especially repentance and salvation. And oddly enough, those in cults don't like the idea that they have been lied to, especially since the person who told them might have had the best of intentions (even though more people get into trouble through good intentions than anyone is willing to admit.).

I think we don't even appreciate what Jesus went through even during his ministry sometimes, he could read peoples hearts and minds, he healed the sick, he made food appear from thin air, he raised the dead, and even raised himself from the grave and those saved before actually rose from their graves and went into town to talk to people...the religious leaders especially were still not convinced of who he was, and spent the rest of their lives trying to discredit his doctrine and jail or execute his disciples. I wonder sometimes what Jesus thinks sometimes of that, so many miracles, so many signs, fulfilling of prophecy they'd grown up memorizing and they still didn't believe any of it. If you could produce the same or greater signs and wonders in front of the religious leaders of today, they'd still want to put you to death. 

[MorgananAntoinette]

 Chris, I appreciate you touching on the convictions you felt in seeing how we break God’s commandments...
 I come from a family that would be considered “devout” by themselves, but in reality are, at best “church -goers” and at worst, pagan; but they wouldn’t ever see that!
 Repentance, if ever talked about, was a slim, marginal form of “yeah,, yeah, yeah, I turn from that bad thing... but if I do it again, I’ll pray for forgiveness” in my family. It blows my mind how few self proclaimed believers, let alone preachers/ pastors/teachers, educate people on this correctly. They prove they lack understanding of the meaning and need for repentance as a salvation issue! Praise God for the convictions He places on us, even as “baby followers of Christ” and the willingly servant-hearted teachers, such as Chris. People that God delivers wisdom unto, so as to bring His children into righteous deliverance and redemption. It still makes me shake in my proverbial boots at the thought that I could have been lost forever to the importance of such a key issue and know it is truly an act of God’s will that I happened upon CLE and the Repentance Teaching.
 Thank you for sharing your conversion testimony, and if you don’t mind my asking, did your family ever speak on repentance? I’m so curious about how we were all raised, even being taken to church or read to from the Bible, yet almost all of us, it seems, missed out on the key doctrine of Repentance! I think this just goes to show the level of leaven in all these ‘church-buildings’ and the lack of willingness to break from tradition and pride, as you said- to receive God-given understanding. Praise God for your salvation and for being here to share and connect with us!

[someguy85]

Funny you should mention that Morgan, now that I think about it, repentance is something that I think was rarely ever discussed in my family when I was younger. It's not because they were "believe and receive" types, but from everything I could gather, in my younger years my parents were part of a group called the "Bible Presbyterians" which from what I understand is kind of similar to the group that Alistair Crowley's parents were involved in, The Select Plymouth Brethren. There was a lot of talk of punishment, and it seemed to be the go to method but repentance and forgiveness was...well if it was mentioned, I don't remember it.

Things eventually deteriorated and for some reason my dad got really into collecting comics, figurines, movie and comic posters etc, the kind of thing he seemed to be dead set against only a few years prior, but even when I called into question some of things he was getting in, he liked using the line "it's okay as long as you know where it comes from and don't get sucked in by it", not that owning or reading a comic determines if anyone's damned or not but it's a similar line of "reasoning" used by church goers when it comes to easter and christmas and other seasonal celebrations, when their go to line of reasoning should be 1 Corinthians 5:6:

"Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I always wondered why certain surveys say that there is no difference between the secular world and the "church" (I know they lump anyone who calls themselves "christian" into that pile) it's because even those who aren't catholic, mormon, JWs, SDAs or splinter cultists rarely actually worship the living God of the bible, our LORD Jesus Christ, they have set something else up in their mind and may as well worship the building they attend. It's no wonder when so many professing christians are still of the world. I remember working with one girl who proclaimed to be Christian, but when another guy I worked with called her out on the fact that she was messing around before marriage, she said as casual as you like "I just ask for forgiveness, it's all good"...this is an all too common view that grace is a convenience and gives no mind to who, what, and how powerful the LORD is (not that I do or may never understand the full extent of those points) but to be so flippant about it...not hard to see what Jesus meant when he said in Matthew 23:15:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Reading that even makes me worried about the damage I've done directly or indirectly before I was saved. But that's how sin goes, it's the worst addictive substance this world will ever see, and it spreads too.

[MorgananAntoinette]

 Wow. That’s powerful reflection and a good example of awareness we all could be aiming for. I see how the lies of the enemy, in so many facets, are built in this fallen world to hold us back from simply taking action FOR God. Almost like the thought of doing something positive, against the flesh, seems way harder and blown out of proportion in our thoughts versus the reality of how refreshing and easy it is when we put our minds and hearts on track to focus on honoring Christ and His commandments. Slovenliness and ease become a heavy, slow moving norm to our minds and bodies, so much so, that the spirit becomes trapped in the hardened amber of the lies that crystallize into formation around our reality when we perform or allow our choices to be garnered on the old man. Reading about your father and his collections reminds me of the bizarre double standards in my family. I honestly feel a little trapped right now as I am dependent upon my folks for a place to live while I recently went through some health issues (awaiting a kidney/pancreas transplant here at age 37) and haven’t found  work I can do from home... I want so badly to share what I learning in my time spent in the Word, here on CLE and from Chris Johnson’s teachings, yet every time I open my mouth or speak on anything that goes against their new age-y/head in the sand/ church-ianity beliefs it causes riffs and cold shoulders to the point they remind me this is their house and I should keep quiet or I will be asked to leave. I can see the truth I have is butting up against their pride and stiff necks, and I’m starting to think that God may be using this very “issue” as a way to ensure I submit and glorify Him, no matter the cost.
 I grew up with this “sort of Catholic”, “sort of pagan called Pentecostal/ Charismatic” system of feel-good, emotion based, just ask for forgiveness-lackadaisical religiosity. Unbiblical and detrimental, as now, I have so much pride and wrong teachings to break from, even in little ways, that I still find correction very useful in. I personally know how fast corruption can take hold and mar a “good intention”. Thank you for these scriptural reminders and guidance in your reply!