Evil Spirits & Souls Passing Through Water

[anvilhauler]

When I read Revelation I'm always puzzled about the sea giving up the dead that were in it and it is counted as a separate event than death and hell delivering up the dead which were in them.  It almost seems as if a soul or a spirit cannot pass through water.

Revelation 20 King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Looking further we read that when an evil spirit is gone out of a person then they walk through dry places and in both instances below it makes a point of mentioning dry places as opposed to just walking around.

Matthew 12 King James Version
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Luke 11 King James Version
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

In the account below, Jesus gives instruction to the evil spirit that it is not permitted to enter in to the boy any more which is contrary to what they normally would do.  Possibly because of the boy's age because he had not yet reached the age of accountability.

Mark 9 King James Version
20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.


In the accounts below though, Jesus didn't command the evil spirits that they were not to enter in to those set free again but they were allowed to enter in to the swine.  I assume though that when the swine would have died by slaughter or other natural means then the evil spirits would be able to leave the swine and enter in to a person which is something I'm sure they would like to do.

Matthew 8 King James Version
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.


Mark 5 King James Version
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.


But in this account below the evil spirits were concerned about being sent in to the deep.  I wonder if the reason for that is because once they are in the water there is no way for them to ever get the freedom they need in order to inhabit another person.  Unbeknown to them, they were heading for the deep whether they liked it or not.

Luke 8 King James Version
26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.

27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.


So not just evil spirits but also maybe the souls of men that if they die in the water then they remain where they are until they are recovered from the sea for judgement.  I don't think it's a major doctrine or anything but I do think it's interesting.

[Kenneth Winslow]

That is an interesting question.
How come some souls not in Hell but in the sea when judgement day starts? 
I don't recall anywhere in Scripture where the sea is described as a place of tranquility, (except when Jesus forced it to calm down), or a nice place to be when worshipping the Lord..
 

[Joshua JZB]

Very intriguing! I have always found the reference to water in the second of the ten commandments unexpected. (Pretty sure it's talking about the sea, right?)

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" - Exodus 20:4

As I understand it, graven images are forbidden for spiritual entities. So making no graven images of things 'in the water under the earth' seems to indicate there are spiritual entities there.
Thinking about this is gonna increase my fear of the ocean; it's not nearly as boring as I once thought. Very vast and mysterious.

[anvilhauler]

That is an interesting question.
How come some souls not in Hell but in the sea when judgement day starts? 
I don't recall anywhere in Scripture where the sea is described as a place of tranquility, (except when Jesus forced it to calm down), or a nice place to be when worshipping the Lord..
 

From what I have seen, way back in those days, just like today, when those in certain political positions thought they were God and had total control, the talk among the people was that if they were God then they would have the power to control both the wind and the sea also. They all knew that a person had no control whatsoever over the wind and the sea.  Along comes Jesus.  Here was a man who had total control over the wind and the sea.

[anvilhauler]

Very intriguing! I have always found the reference to water in the second of the ten commandments unexpected. (Pretty sure it's talking about the sea, right?)

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" - Exodus 20:4

As I understand it, graven images are forbidden for spiritual entities. So making no graven images of things 'in the water under the earth' seems to indicate there are spiritual entities there.
Thinking about this is gonna increase my fear of the ocean; it's not nearly as boring as I once thought. Very vast and mysterious.

Thanks for that Joshua.  That is interesting.  There is likely/possibly also a very large body of water that is under the crust of the earth.  When the evil spirits in the swine didn't want to be sent in to the deep, I'm still not sure if they meant the deep water or deep in to the earth.  By that I don't mean in to water deep in the earth.

[anvilhauler]

I've done some more thinking and reading on what the answer might be to this topic in 1 Peter, but at the moment I would rather hold back for a few days on a deeper discussion related to death and dying. 

[Anna G]

Very intriguing! I have always found the reference to water in the second of the ten commandments unexpected. (Pretty sure it's talking about the sea, right?)

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" - Exodus 20:4

As I understand it, graven images are forbidden for spiritual entities. So making no graven images of things 'in the water under the earth' seems to indicate there are spiritual entities there.
Thinking about this is gonna increase my fear of the ocean; it's not nearly as boring as I once thought. Very vast and mysterious.

Thanks for that Joshua.  That is interesting.  There is likely/possibly also a very large body of water that is under the crust of the earth.  When the evil spirits in the swine didn't want to be sent in to the deep, I'm still not sure if they meant the deep water or deep in to the earth.  By that I don't mean in to water deep in the earth.

Hi Kevin, Joshua,

I do think the subject of the sea in the Bible makes for a fascinating study.

Regarding Exodus 20:4, I don’t know about any deeper spiritual meaning, but in the natural sense I believe the Lord is giving a description of the realms that He created—you may have noticed that this pattern of language is found in different places of the Bible, often with a slightly different description or detail added. For example:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” Exodus 20:4.

“Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:” Deuteronomy 5:8.

“Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” Psalm 135:6.

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” Philippians 2:10.

“And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” Revelation 5:3.

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13.

As to what and where the “water under the earth” is … I think that’s probably a little easier to try to understand for Christians like myself who believe that the Bible describes a flat and stationary earth … but as I know that’s not a particularly appreciated topic on this forum I will respectfully say no more about that now  .

[Joshua JZB]

Thanks for those scriptures Anna. I think you're right that there likely isn't any particular deeper spiritual meaning with the mention of water. I was actually reading the verse thinking the heaven above was a spiritual heaven and earth beneath was actually under the ground. But now I see that it's probably more just talking about animals etc. So thanks again for that.
 
As for flat earth stuff - I think a better understanding of reference frames and spherical coordinates makes it not too difficult. I actually have a lot of extended family and some friends that are flat earthers, and after talking to flat earther at work, my opinion is they just don't understand physics - every argument they've brought up to me is just a misunderstanding of a physics concept. Which is fair enough cause physics is hard. I should know after struggling with physics in my degree. I think flat-earthism can be combination of healthy skepticism and a poor understanding of physics, as with some of my friends. But more often I have found it instead to be arrogance and foolishness. I'm open minded to flat earth but I can't see how it can be true, nor do I see how the Bible calls for a strictly flat earth. I am confident you would be the most reasonable person to have a discussion about this though. Maybe I'm the one not understanding physics after all!

From what I have seen, way back in those days, just like today, when those in certain political positions thought they were God and had total control, the talk among the people was that if they were God then they would have the power to control both the wind and the sea also. They all knew that a person had no control whatsoever over the wind and the sea.  Along comes Jesus.  Here was a man who had total control over the wind and the sea.

I also wanted to say I appreciate this point because I really like it. I think it's very good supporting evidence to demonstrate the Jesus is God.

[Rowan M.]

I have always assumed (although assuming is a dangerous thing) that the sea giving up its dead simply referred to the fact that in the final resurrection, not everyone is in graves. The bodies of some people who die at sea remain there. Particularly if they drown in shipwrecks. So just as some resurrected people will come out of graves, others will come out of the sea if that is the final resting place for their bodies. This would apply to the resurrection of both the just and unjust. Although I think the passage in Revelation that mentions the sea giving up its dead is talking about the Great White Throne, so that's referring to the resurrection of the unjust. It's only the unsaved who face the Great White Throne judgement.

Having said that, it is rather curious how the sea is placed next to Hell and death in terms of all of them giving up their dead. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. Jonah mentions being in "the belly of hell" (Jonah 2:2) when he's inside the whale (which was of course in the sea at the time), but I think he's just speaking figuratively. After all, Jonah wasn't dead, and he was moreover saved. (His time inside the whale's belly did become the sign of Christ's three-day burial though.) Moreover, every passage in the Bible that refers to HUMAN souls speaks of them being in Heaven or Hell. It doesn't refer to anyone being somehow imprisoned in the sea. Evil spirits would have a different kind of makeup. Maybe they do have a need for dry places, or perhaps they simply prefer locations that are somehow barren.

Thanks for the interesting comparison of scripture with scripture, Anna - I was most edified by that. 

Science was never my best subject, so cosmology is not something I have studied in depth, although I have tried to do a little bit now and again. When it comes to the question of the earth's shape, I have noticed that believers in a flat earth are often subject to intense scoffing, and not just by the "usual suspects" (like atheists), but also other Christians at times. In an example of the latter, I came across a discussion on Facebook in early August between a couple of flat-earthers and other Christians who believed in the orthodox view of a spherical earth. The flat-earthers seemed to be attempting to argue from the Bible, and were quite gracious in their manner, while the "round-earthers" mostly just said things like "You have lost your mind" and posted memes making fun of the flat-earth theory. Few if any of them attempted to engage in reasonable discussion. Mind you, I think those particular "round-earthers" were Ruckmanites, who don't tend to be the nicest people around anyway. I don't think that kind of scoffing attitude is helpful in Christians. It can easily turn into railing (and Chris was warning against that very thing in his latest teaching). And for some people, ridicule actually makes them more entrenched in their position, whether it is right or wrong.

As for the non-Christian scoffers, they tend to reserve about the same amount of venomous ridicule for flat-earthers that they do for Christians who believe the Biblical account of a six-day creation, anti-vaxxers, climate change "deniers" and conspiracy theorists. So when I see the intensity of the scoffing, it makes me go "Hmm" a bit. Is the mocking and scoffing warranted, or is there a darker spiritual reason behind it, just as there is for the mocking of creationists and anti-vaxxers etc.? That very scoffing actually makes me more open to the idea of a flat earth and/or geocentricity than I otherwise might be. Another thing that troubles me is that people who believe in the Gap Theory do so because they accept "the science" that says the earth is millions of years old. So they try to make the Bible fit popularly accepted science. But when it comes to Scriptures that say the sun moves, we're meant to reject what the Bible literally says because "the science" says the earth rotates. Is this not again making the Bible fit man's accepted science? I do think one key reason why people adopt a flat-earth position is because scientists have a track record of lying. After all, they lie about evolution, they lie about the age of the earth, they lie about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, they lie about climate change - in fact, they seem to have a bigger problem with telling the truth than politicians. So can you blame some people for thinking that they might also be lying about the shape of the earth, or its behaviour in relation to the sun? It doesn't seem like such a great leap of logic.

On the other hand, it is theoretically possible for an aircraft with enough fuel to take off, fly in a straight line in an easterly or westerly direction (or even a northerly or southerly direction, I suppose) and end up back in the same place. If the earth were a flat disc (and it has to be round in some way - just look at its shadow on a lunar eclipse!), surely it would have to fly in a constant turn rather than a straight line? Also, how would time zones work on a flat earth? Something else I've just been thinking about is how daylight fluctuates considerably between the poles and the Equator. At the poles, you get 24-hour daylight in summer and 24-hour darkness in winter. At the Equator on the other hand, you get roughly the same amount of daylight hours all year round. This isn't just something "science" says. It's something we can all observe for ourselves, and to me, it seems to fit more logically with a spherical earth. I remember visiting the Shetland Islands, near (or maybe in?) the Arctic Circle many years ago. It was in the month of July, so high summer. The sun was up until midnight! And it came up again by about 2:00am or 3:00am. It never went very far below the horizon. I don't see how that would be possible on a flat earth, but as I've said, science isn't my strong suit. Speaking of observation, I have been high up in aircraft and there definitely seemed to be some sort of curve to the earth, especially when the plane was over an ocean. So for me right now, there are too many problems with idea of the earth being flat. But as I say, I haven't studied the matter out too well. I just wanted to at least try reasoning it out a little bit. Incidentally, I have come across people who believe in the earth being spherical but stationary. So they believe in geocentricity, but reject a flat earth. Kind of an interesting middle ground.

Sorry, that's probably got a bit off-topic. If people want to debate or discuss cosmology a little more, it would probably be better to start a separate thread. But since Anna brought it up, and Joshua also addressed it, I found myself wanting to share a few thoughts of my own on this subject.

[Anna G]

Sorry, that's probably got a bit off-topic. If people want to debate or discuss cosmology a little more, it would probably be better to start a separate thread. But since Anna brought it up, and Joshua also addressed it, I found myself wanting to share a few thoughts of my own on this subject.

My apologies, I didn’t mean for my post to detract from Kevin’s original topic, I was just wanting to give my thoughts about the conversation Kevin and Joshua had about Exodus 20:4. I agree that if people want to discuss Biblical cosmology further then it should be done on a separate thread. Very sorry, Kevin!

[anvilhauler]

Sorry, that's probably got a bit off-topic. If people want to debate or discuss cosmology a little more, it would probably be better to start a separate thread. But since Anna brought it up, and Joshua also addressed it, I found myself wanting to share a few thoughts of my own on this subject.

My apologies, I didn’t mean for my post to detract from Kevin’s original topic, I was just wanting to give my thoughts about the conversation Kevin and Joshua had about Exodus 20:4. I agree that if people want to discuss Biblical cosmology further then it should be done on a separate thread. Very sorry, Kevin!

No problem to all of you.  That's how discussion goes.

[Rowan M.]

My apologies, I didn’t mean for my post to detract from Kevin’s original topic, I was just wanting to give my thoughts about the conversation Kevin and Joshua had about Exodus 20:4. I agree that if people want to discuss Biblical cosmology further then it should be done on a separate thread. Very sorry, Kevin!

I don't think you have anything to apologise for, Anna. If anyone owes Kevin an apology, it's me, since I went off on a little bit of a tangent there. So yeah, sorry about that, Kevin.

[anvilhauler]

With regards to

Revelation 20 King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Just by coincidence I happened to start reading 1 Peter next after my posting of the above.

It seems like those who were unrighteous and died in the flood were sent to a place of prison as a separate group of people than those unrighteous who had died up until that time.  Of course all those who died in the flood died in the sea, because the whole face of the earth was covered by the sea.  Hence the sea giving up the dead figuratively.

1 Peter 3 King James Version
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


It would seem as though Peter is just repeating himself in the next chapter below, but above he made a distinction about those who were around when the Ark was being built and not just the fact that they were people who were dead.

1 Peter 4 King James Version
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

With Death and Hell giving up the dead that was in them, I take it that means Paradise and Hell.  Paradise being described as Death because those in Paradise were still subject to death in the body.

As a side issue, it would be interesting to know if prophets were sent to the people before Noah preached to them and what scriptural writings they might have had in those days.  Also any ordinances that God had set for the people but were ignored, much the same as Israel went off track and stopped the morning and evening oblation etc.

[Laura]

This has been an interesting read. To go along with what others have said about the dead in the sea being those who died there, this description in Revelation 8 also points to even more people dying in the water in the last times:

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
-Revelation 8:8-11

[Kenneth Winslow]

How come some people are stuck in the sea and not in Hell with everyone else who died in their sin?
Why are the dead called out of the sea for judgement, but not out of the mountains and out of the desert and out of the jungle?
Why are some of the dead in Hell AND some in the sea?
 

Maybe this question feels personal to me because I spent a lot of time down in the oceans and seas around the world and I feel akin to the many submariners who died there.

[anvilhauler]

How come some people are stuck in the sea and not in Hell with everyone else who died in their sin?
Why are the dead called out of the sea for judgement, but not out of the mountains and out of the desert and out of the jungle?
Why are some of the dead in Hell AND some in the sea?
 

Maybe this question feels personal to me because I spent a lot of time down in the oceans and seas around the world and I feel akin to the many submariners who died there.

As in my last posting though, I'm wondering if the ones called out of the sea are those mentioned in 1 Peter who were disobedient in the time that Noah was building the Ark.

[anvilhauler]

This has been an interesting read. To go along with what others have said about the dead in the sea being those who died there, this description in Revelation 8 also points to even more people dying in the water in the last times:

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
-Revelation 8:8-11

Yes, the tsunami from something as large as a mountain being thrown in to the sea is going to be enormous and will go right around the world causing absolute chaos but especially in those places that have coast lines facing the impact point. Hence they will be totally wiped out with no warning for any kind of evacuation. There was even a concern for me here in Dunedin, New Zealand when the volcano was erupting in Hawaii because of that area called the Hilina Slump and if those trillions of tons of mountain had slid in to the sea the tsunami would cause massive damage to New Zealand as well as wiping Honolulu and San Diego and much of Los Angeles off the map.  At the time I made sure I took my personal property home from work because if the tsunami had hit it would wipe out much of the city here because it is only about three feet above sea level.  I live up on the hills two hundred metres which is six hundred feet above sea level.

It is interesting for this reason why Israel is situated where it is, because for a tsunami to reach Israel it would have to pass through the very narrow Straits of Gibraltar and that basically just wouldn't happen.

[Pilgrim Mike]

I could be wrong but I believe one reason that the demons didn't want to be cast into the deep is because they couldn't feed off of a living soul. God is can obviously be everywhere at once and perhaps they were afraid of something regarding that. Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.. That's interesting in regarding the demons and the swine.