(WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p1

[creationliberty]

[anvilhauler]

I just finished listening to the teaching and the word 'narcissism' came up.  'Narcissism' actually isn't some "psychology" term and those who teach about narcissism stress that all the time and quite often advise people never to use the word unless the person you're talking with knows very well what narcissism is.  Numerous times they have advised that people should use the description of the individual factors that are collectively called narcissism instead. 

Those factors typically are
lack of empathy,
lack of remorse,
lack of guilt,
arrogance,
lying,
stealing,
selfishness,
entitlement,
being difficult etc etc.

A "psychologist" never diagnoses people as having these traits and these traits are observed by the people who have the misfortune of having to tolerate those who behave in such a manner.  The traits are described as being sinful acts and those who do such things are fully aware of what they are doing but have no intention of dealing with their behaviour.  Typically it seems these people have come to the conclusion in their life at some stage that they are going to look after number one, and they are number one.

If narcissism was a psychology term then unfortunately that would make the Bible a psychology textbook.

Often people will get just as angry when listing the individual attributes. 

[Rowan M.]

I just finished listening to the teaching and the word 'narcissism' came up.  'Narcissism' actually isn't some "psychology" term and those who teach about narcissism stress that all the time and quite often advise people never to use the word unless the person you're talking with knows very well what narcissism is.  Numerous times they have advised that people should use the description of the individual factors that are collectively called narcissism instead. 

[...]

A "psychologist" never diagnoses people as having these traits and these traits are observed by the people who have the misfortune of having to tolerate those who behave in such a manner.  The traits are described as being sinful acts and those who do such things are fully aware of what they are doing but have no intention of dealing with their behaviour.  Typically it seems these people have come to the conclusion in their life at some stage that they are going to look after number one, and they are number one.

I don't know for certain whether narcissism is a term specific to psychology or not, but psychologists often do refer to something they call Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or NPD for short. They label those with this so-called "disorder" as "narcissists". Somewhat confusingly however, some say that not every narcissist has the "disorder", just the worst ones. Example:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/narcissism-symptoms-signs

And this is an article about NPD from Psychology Today:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

Of course, it's not a "disorder" or "condition" at all, and the traits of narcissism are not "symptoms" of anything other than a very prideful and wicked heart, but the fact is, psychologists do talk about narcissism quite a lot, especially in relation to so-called NPD.

If narcissism was a psychology term then unfortunately that would make the Bible a psychology textbook.

How so? Psychologists call it a "condition" or "disorder" (when they refer to it). The Bible doesn't even use the word, but makes it clear that the behaviours typically associated with narcissism proceed from a wicked heart. In other words, psychologists say narcissism is a mental disorder, while the Bible says that it is the result of sin (at least, the behaviours that typify it are). So even if the word "narcissism" does originate in psychology (and I don't know if it does, only that psychologists make liberal use of it), it wouldn't follow that the Bible is a psychology textbook. Psychology and the Bible interpret human behaviour in completely different ways, as Chris very thoroughly demonstrated in his recent teaching series on psychology.

[Ellie]

I wanted to look into it because I was curious, so the history of the word “narcissism” is actually based in Greek mythology. Based on some story of a young man named Narcissus who rejected someone’s romantic advances and then his punishment from the (false) gods for that was that he was forced to fall in love with his own reflection in the water which he later fell into and died. Here’s a quote describing the history of the word (emphasis mine):

narcissism (n.)
1905, from German Narzissismus, coined 1899 (in "Die sexuellen Perversitäten"), by German psychiatrist Paul Näcke (1851-1913), on a comparison suggested 1898 by Havelock Ellis, from Greek Narkissos, name of a beautiful youth in mythology (Ovid, "Metamorphoses," iii.370) who fell in love with his own reflection in a spring and was turned to the flower narcissus (q.v.). Narcissus himself as a figure of self-love is attested by 1767. Coleridge used the word in a letter from 1822.

(Source - etymonline )

So a psychiatrist coined the word after it’s use by Havelock Ellis referencing the mythology, and Ellis apparently was a physician, eugenist, and sexologist. (Upon a short reading about him, he seems like a pervert, but of course psychiatrists don’t have issue with being inspired by perverts…)

But that leads us to today, where Narcissistic personality disorder is a psychological diagnosis that is made by a few things, including psychological evaluation and the use of the DSM-5:

Diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder typically is based on:

Signs and symptoms
A physical exam to make sure you don't have a physical problem causing your symptoms
A thorough psychological evaluation that may include filling out questionnaires
Criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association

(Source- Mayo Clinic)

If all this is true, then it is a psychological term (originating from Greek pagan myths), and others who use it outside of that perspective are still using it based on the same traits and behaviors. Because the traits and behaviors are basically the same, it’s just one person is in an office doing some ”official” evaluation on a patient and using the DSM, while the other person is  just observing someones behaviors and drawing their conclusion by comparing it to the same basic list of characteristics—and they aren’t doing it to officially “diagnose” the person or prescribe some treatment plan, but just to describe someone.

It seems like if a “narcissist” were described in more biblical terms, it may be someone who has seared their conscience with a hot iron, and someone who has no charity but is full of hatred for their neighbor. If they know what they are doing yet don’t care and don’t want to change, then maybe that’s the case.

[Rowan M.]

It seems like if a “narcissist” were described in more biblical terms, it may be someone who has seared their conscience with a hot iron, and someone who has no charity but is full of hatred for their neighbor. If they know what they are doing yet don’t care and don’t want to change, then maybe that’s the case.

Based on people that I would consider narcissists (using the list of characteristics to describe them), I would say that this more Biblical description is pretty spot on. Narcissists really do seem to have a complete lack of charity (the only time they show any charity is when they can get something out of doing so, such as approval from others or maybe getting someone to "owe" them) and absolutely no sense of shame or guilt for what they do.

Many narcissistic behaviours and attitudes can be found in the profile of the wicked in Psalm 10, especially Verses 2-11 and Verse 13. I particularly like Verse 5:

His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them. (Psalm 10:5)

[anvilhauler]

Those who work in the field of narcissism and help others come to terms with what has happened to them and how to move forward have no hesitation in telling that all of the mythical rubbish about some guy looking in to water and seeing his reflection blah blah blah is just rubbish and should be ignored. 

They also point out that most "psychologists" don't understand narcissism and therefore rather than being of any use to those who have been affected by it, they actually make the problem much much worse by their lack of understanding and the stupid things they say.  And just to make it even worse many "psychologists" can be classified as being narcissists themselves.  That would explain their lack of insight.

From all that I have seen, those who work to heal the lives of others make it quite clear there is no such thing as "psychology" and what there really is is people who make decisions and they don't care about the effect those decisions have on the lives and well being of other people.

A number of years back I actually met a "psychiatrist" at the pool and he works for the hospital here in Dunedin.  I talked with him not long after I learned there was this collection of evil behaviours called narcissism.  A part of his job was evaluating criminal offenders before they faced trial for their crimes.  I quizzed him about "narcissists" and commented to him that he must have come across quite a few in his time, and his answer was 'yes' he certainly has.  When I asked further about their communication he commented that they are people you can just never engage with.  These are people who at some stage in their life have decided that they will do whatever they want and none of it is open to scrutiny or any examination.  They are just a complete waste of time and there is really no place for them in society.  I liked all that he was saying because I could relate all of it to my ex-wife.

[Rowan M.]

When I asked further about their communication he commented that they are people you can just never engage with.  These are people who at some stage in their life have decided that they will do whatever they want and none of it is open to scrutiny or any examination.  They are just a complete waste of time and there is really no place for them in society.  I liked all that he was saying because I could relate all of it to my ex-wife.

That's an excellent point about the wickedness of narcissists being THEIR DECISION. They do what they do, not because of any type of "condition", but because they make a CONSCIOUS AND DELIBERATE CHOICE to do evil. To claim they have a "disorder" is to excuse their sin, just like with other so-called "mental disorders". I would also agree that as a general rule, you cannot engage with narcissists (unless it's absolutely necessary), for much the same reason that you would avoid engagement with a dangerous beast. They are quite simply not safe to be around. Some are a threat to your physical well-being. Others may only endanger your emotional well-being, but all of them will still seek to harm you in some way if you get too much on their radar.

From a spiritual standpoint however, I don't think it's right to dismiss narcissists as "a complete waste of time". We need to remember that the spiritual conflict we are all involved in is first and foremost a battle for souls. God wants as many people to be saved as possible, while Satan wants them to join him in the Lake of Fire.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

I don't see any exceptions being made for narcissists. God does not want them to end up in Hell and the Lake of Fire. He wants them to repent and be saved, same thing He wants for everyone else.

We know that few people will be saved, and given how hard the hearts of narcissists are, even fewer of them will be. Nevertheless, we should not give up on them. At the very least, we should pray for them, because our battle is ultimately not against flesh and blood.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12)

That's the real enemy right there. As for human enemies, well if you have a narcissist in your life, you also have an enemy. I have learned that from my own life experience. But what does God want us to do with our enemies, and those who wrong us generally?

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48)

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. (Luke 6:27-28)

Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. (Romans 12:14)

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Romans 12:17)

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)

For "enemy", try substituting "narcissist" or even "the narcissist(s) in your life". When narcissists mistreat us (and they will), God wants us to pray for them (because the battle is really in the spiritual realm) and show charity towards them by blessing them, providing for their physical needs (if there is an opportunity, or even if it is necessary for some reason) and not returning their evil behaviour back on them, as much as our flesh might want that. Even when they are out of our lives, we should still try to pray for them whenever we can, remembering the bigger spiritual battle going on behind the scenes. From our perspective, if may seem impossible for a narcissist to be saved, but nothing is too hard for the Lord (Genesis 18:14, Jeremiah 32:27). We never know what He might do for narcissists who have impacted our lives if we simply obey the commandments of Scripture about loving our enemies.

[creationliberty]

And to summarize all of your posts, that is why, in the audio recording, I said I wasn't going to go into all the details about it because there wasn't enough time.