Pastor Extorting For Money (Chad Wagner)

[creationliberty]

So I got a mass spam email the other day from a pastor who was trying to ramp up his book sales. Now, as you are going to see, I made the mistake of accusing him of only charging for his book. I could not find a place to check it out on his site. After the second letter, I tried it again, and it turns out that you could read it for free on his site, but he made it pretty hard to find. (I think part of it is that his website seems a bit unorganized and confusing to navigate.) However, he teaches people the false doctrine of "storehouse tithing," which means he is extorting churchgoers for money. Here is the exchange; I thought you all might like to see this, and I'll make some comments afterwards on it so you can get some more details.
CHAD WAGNER, PASTOR OF EXCELSIOR SPRINGS CHURCH IN MISSOURI
Dear friends and family,

After nearly five years I have finally published Volume 3 of my commentary series on the book of Proverbs called, "Get Wisdom, Get Understanding." This book is my commentary on Proverbs chapter 3.

It is available on Amazon in hardback, paperback, and Kindle.

You can learn more about it and read reviews here if you're interested: Get Wisdom, Get Understanding, Vol. 3.

Please feel free to share it with others who you think would appreciate it.

I hope it's a blessing to you.

(((SEE ATTACHMENT 1)))

Chad Wagner

Pastor, Excelsior Springs Church
Excelsior Springs, MO

www.PastorWagner.com
www.KJVChurch.com
Hello Chad.

I had to look up your name in my archives because I have no idea how you got my email address. My archives indicate you last emailed me in 2014, 8 years ago. As far as I know, I have not received anything from you since. I also did not sign up for any newsletters from you. This means that you simply sent out a mass email for people to buy your book, and this is likely something new you are trying because you are sending notifications of "Vol.3," which means your book sales probably aren't doing as well as you had hoped.

My email address is for ministry purposes, not so you can send out ads to increase your books sales, and frankly, I find it personally insulting that you would even attempt that. I offer all my books free-to-read on my website (people are welcome to print them out and share them if they want), and I have my own commentaries on various books of the Bible which are all FREE because:
Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
-Proverbs 23:23
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
-Mat 10:8
So just to clarify, you need to take me off your mailing list or I will block your email address (as I stated on my website's contact page), and also, you should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you will not be, especially since, after a brief look at your website, I saw a number of corrupt doctrines you teach (like on tithe, just for one example, which didn't surprise me), which means you are leavened, and therefore, I am quite certain you will reject any shame for what you're doing.

Your false doctrine, which presumably comes from your corrupt books:
https://kjvchurch.com/proverbs-3-9/

Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
-Isa 56:11

Biblical answers for born again Christians to counter preachers of greed, like yourself:
Tithe is Not a Christian Requirement

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
-Titus 1:10-13
That being said, I hope that the Lord God will show you and your family as much mercy as He has shown me and mine, and I hope you have a great day.
You hypocrite. I just checked, and a bunch of your books are on Amazon for sale.  All of my published books are available for free on our church website too, either in blogs or PDFs.

You have a donate button on your website and in the signature of your email. You hypocrite.

What percentage of your income do you give to the Lord? Please give me your Biblical justification for giving that percentage to God.
All of my published books are available for free on our church website too, either in blogs or PDFs.
Then I apologize for falsely accusing you of not making your materials available for free. I didn't see a place on your site where one could read that, and perhaps I did not search deep enough on your site. However, you are trying to advertise to my ministry's email, which I do not appreciate (and you had no remorse for, nor did you respond to), and it's clear that you're angry that I caught you in what you were doing (i.e. trying boost your book sales) because I have a question for you: Did you include a link in your email to read your book for free on your website? Of course, you and I both know you didn't, and we both know WHY you did not include those details. It has nothing to do with helping people "get wisdom," and everything to do with increasing your book sales, which was the purpose of your spam mail. So, take me off your mailing list, or I will block your email address. It's that simple.

You hypocrite.  I just checked, and a bunch of your books are on Amazon for sale. 
You were not accused of leaven for selling a book. You need to learn to slow down and READ what people are writing. Yes, anyone can order my books on Amazon for those who want a physical copy, but if you would read carefully on my store page, there is a link to read the book right underneath the title. Since you did not bother to read what was on the store page on my site, I will provide a screen shot for you:

(((SEE ATTACHMENT #2)))

As a side note, it was not easy to find the links to read your books on your site. You have to swim through all the "buy here" and "get discounts" buttons and links to find the place where you can go read them. That's why I didn't find it the first time because your "Vol.3" book links take users to the Amazon store, and that's all I saw the first time, that's all most people will see when they look at it, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

You have a donate button on your website and in the signature of your email. You hypocrite.
Of course I accept donations to this ministry. Have you lost your mind? No one accused you of leaven for accepting donations, but you were accused of being leavened for telling people they are robbing God if they don't pay you money. Now, THAT is a hypocrite. Remember, you are going to be held accountable for everything you say here, and on your site:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
-Mat 12:36
You have a document on your website called "Giving to God." These appear to be your notes of your preaching. Here is what you wrote in that document:
"Christians are required to support their pastor financially."
"Don't simply give the pastor your spare change if you happen to have any that day."
"When we fail to give to God, we are robbing Him"
"When people rob God, they are cursed for it"
https://kjvchurch.com/files/Giving%20to%20God_0.doc

So you threaten born again saints, telling them that God is going to curse them (based on the illusion of a commandment that does not exist in the New Testament for the church) if they do not give YOU money, which is a form of coercion, and then turn around, and accuse me of being a hypocrite for accepting donations freely by the charity from those who (by their own liberty) choose to give because they appreciate the work I'm doing. Unbelievable. Has lifting yourself up as a so-called "pastor" blinded your eyes to that degree?
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
-Luke 6:39

What percentage of your income do you give to the Lord?
This is fascinating, and I'm glad you wrote me this letter because now I know to stay FAR away from you and your corrupt doctrine. I don't have to use this verse very often, but it's appropriate here:
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
-Matthew 7:5
I don't believe you have much fear of God, and I'll show you why. Here is the statement you made from the "Giving to God" document:
"That percentage should be laid back in store (saved) and then we should give to the Lord (to people in need and to the ministry) out of that fund."
The place where we agree would be to give to people in need. For example, an evangelist who is preaching the Gospel that needs to provide for his family while he works--that is a person in need. (Despite what you might want to believe.) The poor, needy, orphans, and widows are likewise people in need. Thus, giving to any of them, is the same as giving to God, as Jesus Christ testifies in Matthew 25.
However, where we disagree is where you included "to the ministry," by which, you actually mean giving to YOU because YOU said:
"Christians are required to support their pastor financially."
Myself and my ministry and one are the same because I'm working my ministry, and I do this by myself. However, that's not how you defined these things. This is one of the more shady, despicable things I have seen a self-proclaimed "pastor" attempt to do. Your question was designed to puff yourself up, just like the Pharisee standing at the front of the temple:
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
-Luke 18:9-12
Look, there is no problem with you making a living from your work. You should. However, you hate the fact that you are being rebuked on your false doctrines because you hate correction:
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
-Proverbs 15:10
There is no requirement in the New Testament to give a specific percentage, and you probably know that, but you hide the truth in unrighteousness because of your greed:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
-Romans 1:18
Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
-Isa 56:11
It is amazing that you have defined "giving to the Lord" as "giving to Chad," without saying that directly, but I caught it. You can tell by the way you define your title of rank apart from those who are in need, and also that your "pastor income" is separate from the "church fund," which is laughable because you and I both know that's not true:
"Give to godly purposes from that account or shoebox (your pastor, church fund, the poor, etc.)."
So essentially, according to Chad, the only way anyone can fully and completely "give to God" is to pay YOU. (i.e. Not "give" in charity, because there is no gift if you are required to pay.) You even state in your "Giving to God" teaching that a pastor must also tithe, but where does his tithe money go? Right back into his own pocket. (i.e. It's a facade.) Thus, not only are your questions invasive (i.e. I wouldn't ask you what you give, or to who you give, because it's none of my business), but you wrote that to try and make yourself look good on the outside of the cup, in which you attempt to justify your corrupt doctrine with money, or in other words, you believe in your heart that your inner "goodness" is tied to what percentage of the income you give to someone (which comes from the money you extort from unsuspecting churchgoers), while I teach that no Christian has any obligation to give me anything, that they are free to do what they will in charity with what they have be given by the Lord Jesus Christ, and that I know that my inner goodness doesn't exist--it is only imputed to me by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
-Matthew 23:25

Please give me your Biblical justification for giving that percentage to God.
Here's my justification. All my charity and goodness hangs on this:
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
-Romans 4:22-25
If you want a different answer according to your corrupt doctrines on your "storehouse tithing" coercion/extortion, then I will give you that justification when you send me God's address. I'll wait for your response on that.

I know you're used to using these sleight-of-hand techniques on undiscerning churchgoers, but you are talking with someone who understands the Scripture, can expose your false doctrine, and knows your scam. You will not get away with that garbage when you stand before God one day, and I have no problem calling out your hypocrisy, contradictions, and corruptions because I hate seeing leavened preachers like you take advantage of poor, hard-working people, while you peddle the holy name of Christ in your shame.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
-Mark 7:13

I still hope you and your family have a pleasant evening, and despite your deceptions, I still pray the Lord Jesus Christ will continue to provide mercies in your household during the upcoming rough months in America.
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
-1 Peter 3:9
END OF DISCUSSION
He probably will not even read this, let alone respond to it, but if he does, I might include it in a comment below.

[creationliberty]

One of the reasons I wanted to publish this is to demonstrate to Christians that just because someone runs an "Historic, Independent, Unincorporated, Non-501c3, KJV-only, Sovereign Grace Baptist Church" (as he says on his website), it does not automatically mean they are doing what's right. Adding adjectives to a description of a ministry only makes it more impressive to those who cannot discern with the doctrines of Scripture.

In 2014, he wrote a friendly letter from Minnesota (where he used to live) to tell me that, "it appears that you do not believe in sovereign grace (election, predestination)" -- which is not true. Those of you who have listened to me for a long time know that I have taught those things for many years.

He then said I needed to believe in "Sovereign Grace." The first problem I have with that is it is a church-ianity created phrase, meaning that it is not a phrase or term that is found in Scripture. That being said, all it means is that you believe God is all-powerful and omniscient, and that he has grace on people. Of course, that is correct, and that is pretty much Christianity 101; you have to believe these things to even believe Scripture is the truth.

But back then, he said that I was a preacher that was preaching the truth in his letter. He was very cordial with me, and told me that we even agreed on things like Christmas and Easter. And, on his website, he even says that repentance is godly sorrow, even though he makes the mistake of including "change of mind" to the definition of repentance, which then pushes conversion BEFORE salvation. If anyone does not understand that, please read or listen to the teaching on repentance:
Is Repentance Part of Salvation?

However, it is IRRELEVANT how many things we might agree on when he is preaching false doctrines to extort people for money. That alone cancels out everything else. Don't misunderstand, I never accused the man of being a false convert, but I did accuse him of being a greedy preacher. In fact, it more angers me when someone like him comes along with a seemingly outward gentleness, while he is scamming churchgoers to turn a profit through coercion.

coerce (v): to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition; to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.

So when I wrote him back that first response, in his mind and heart, he thought, "How dare he! I am doing the right thing." So, he was justifying himself in his mind, but most any person realizes that they cannot just come out and say what a great person they are, to glorify themselves, because most people know they will just makes them look bad, so they need evidence to back it up.

So the question is: What evidence do they go to? For me, I have no inner goodness whereby I need to justify myself, because Christ justifies me. The problem with Chad is that he had to use something to prove he was not extorting people, so he posed a question that was meant to both puff himself up and attack me, which was based on the assumptions of his false "storehouse tithing" doctrine.

He prides himself in "giving" a percentage of his money "to the ministry" -- which means he puts the money he received from the tithing plate, back into the tithing plate, only to receive it again. Now, some might argue that his church building costs money for equipment and upkeep, and that's true, but remember, he works there. So, he wants everyone to pay his living expenses, and pay to build and maintain his comfy office (which he invites them to once a week), all with threats that God will curse them if they don't.

Perhaps they do charity for the poor and needy. That's great. I did not condemn that, nor did I accuse any wrongdoing on that point because I do not know what they do, or what they don't do. However, by giving to the poor and needy, that is "giving to God," but that is NOT what Chad believes. He didn't want to say, but he believes that "giving to God" is "giving to the pastor" or in other words, "giving to Chad."

So because I do not "give to Chad," and Chad does not know if I am giving to any other Chads (i.e. pastors), therefore, I am not "giving to God."

So that being said, in short, his justification for teaching this doctrine is based in the delusion of his own preconceived "goodness," meaning that he believes how righteous he is as a "Christian" could be calculated by an accountant. He thinks that the amounts of money he has shifted around in his church building (i.e. going from tithe plate, to his pocket, back to tithe plate, and back to his pocket), putting things in the tithe plate where everyone can see and be thoroughly impressed, is his measurement of "goodness."

Of course, I didn't know any of that until I checked out his site the other day when I received his email, but I knew something was wrong by just the fact that he was sending out spam mail to increase his book sales. That was a red flag of itself, and the fact that he sent it to me was not near as irritating as the realization that I had never received anything else from him, and here was his advertisement for "Volume 3."

That's a key point. So, as far as I know, he has one larger book, and then he as published three smaller ones on a "get wisdom" series. Why didn't he send out emails for the other ones? Is it because he didn't realize he could use email? No. The problem is that his church building website is not getting much traffic, and he's not very popular online, so his book sales aren't doing so well, and that was the reason he sent this out, and not only that, but he sent it to every single person he's ever emailed because he's fishing for sales.

That alone should have been embarrassing to him. That is no different than him going door to door trying to sell a copy of his book to people. It's pathetic.

Folks, I don't make very much money on the books I have. In fact, most of the money I get from the books goes back into paying my editor (a wonderful Christian lady in our church who does a great job) to produce more books, and purchasing books to hand out to people for free. And you all will notice in many of the things I post, either in these emails or on social media, that I refer people back to the FREE written articles because I want them to get the information. Anyone I have met in person who wanted a copy of one of my books, I have NEVER charged them for it because I didn't get into this to sell books, I got into this because I wanted to make the information MORE accessible than just online because some people cannot get online, or prefer things written on paper.

What Chad did was ABSOLUTELY shameful, and the fact that he is not embarrassed (i.e. he got angry instead) is clear warning signs of leaven, and I want nothing to do with his ministry. If there is leaven (which there is), things will get worse over time, and the truth will be revealed in time.

I hope that helps increase your discernment on these matters. Feel free to make your own comments with your discernment if you want.

[creationliberty]

Chad did respond today. I won't be replying to him, but you all can comment if you want.
Christopher,

I apologize for sending you the email about my book being available.  I selected all of my email contacts and then went through and unselected a bunch of them which I didn't want to send it to.  I missed your email address when I was unselecting.  I did not intend to send you that email.  You did not remember me, but I remembered you from our previous correspondence, so trust me when I say that I did not intend to send you that or any other email.  I have deleted your email address from my contacts, so you should never get another unsolicited email from me again.

You could make the case that it was unwise of me to announce to my contacts, friends, and family of the release of my book.  In retrospect, it probably was unwise.  But to say that I did so for filthy lucre's sake is false and plain absurd, especially for a man who has himself published books as you have.  This book is Volume 3 in a series which means there were two books before it.  This means that I have a good idea how many copies it will sell.  Based on previous book sales, if I spent the great number of hours which I did writing that book to make money, I truly am one of the greatest fools to ever live.

Your last email is full of false accusations which I do not have time nor desire to respond to.  You would be wise to find out the facts about a man before you malign and falsely accuse him.

Pro 19:2 - Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.

Pro 18:13 - He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

You did not understand the intent of the questions I asked you about giving to the Lord, but rather than asking for an explanation of the purpose for the questions, you assumed an evil motive on my part, and then went on to spew more false accusations and vitriol.   

There is much more that could be said, but it would be a waste of my time.  God will judge between us, and I will leave it at that.
I will comment on a couple things though, which I found hilarious:
You would be wise to find out the facts about a man before you malign and falsely accuse him.
Pro 18:13 - He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
I went to HIS teaching, and quoted directly from what HE taught. How is that not hearing the matter? It doesn't matter how much he wants to claim to agree with me, while he's coercing his congregation in the background. But according to Chad, that is "answering before hearing the matter." If I had never looked up what he teaches, and then told him all these things, I would be in for some serious rebuke from you all, and I would deserve it.

Worse still, is that he refuses to respond to it. Well, if he's not going to respond, how does he expect someone to hear the matter?

Hmm. That's a conundrum.

I didn't "have time" to respond to his inquiries last night, but I took two hours to do it anyway because that man needed sharp rebuke, and I did it not just for his sake, but also for the sake of those he takes advantage of. If he cared about me, and about you guys who listen to my teachings, wouldn't he do the same? No, he's thinking of himself, and not others.

And remember, even though his spam mail was "unwise," he did NOT confess what he was actually doing. If he did, I would have had far more respect for him. However, he just threw it up to a "accident." This was no accident; I know what he was doing... it wasn't hard to put the pieces together. However, the really hilarious part is that he said it was "unwise" to do it, while he promoted a book for people to "get wisdom."

Ha ha ha ha!! I couldn't help but laugh out loud in my office when I read that!

You all can decide what you think is the truth of the matter.

[Rowan M.]

You probably already know this, Chris, but for the benefit of anyone reading who may not, whenever a church includes words like "Sovereign Grace" in its name, that nearly always means it adheres to Calvinist theology. That's why this guy was asking you if you believed in predestination and election. He's probably TULIP-ed up the wazoo. (For anyone unfamiliar with Calvinism, TULIP is an acronym standing for their most essential doctrines, also known as the Five Points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints. These doctrines were originally taught by Augustine, who seemed to be some sort of hero to John Calvin, but who was also a key father of Roman Catholicism. The limited atonement and irresistible grace doctrines are especially heretical.)

Within the wider Baptist movement, there seems to be a stream that favours Calvinism. Such Baptists may sometimes call themselves "Reformed Baptists" ("reformed" is another sign of a church being Calvinist). Charles Spurgeon was a professed Baptist, but also a Calvinist. Baptist churches that teach Calvinism usually have some variation of "grace", or "sovereign grace" in their name. Nowadays it is also spreading to many Independent Fundamental Baptist churches. Other denominations that are particularly Calvinist include the Presbyterians (those that are not completely apostate) and Dutch Reformed Church.

So aside from all this man's other issues, his clearly Calvinist leanings are enough on their own to indicate to me that he is leavened.

[creationliberty]

That was an interesting read. When I looked over the principles he was teaching (because I read more than just his "Giving to God" sermon) everything you said matched everything I read. If what you're saying is true, and I have every reason to believe it is, then in 2014, he was trying to bait me into Calvinism, and that's not going to fly.

Frankly, I don't believe I have ever heard of "irresistible grace," but without hearing anymore about it, just the name alone doesn't make any Scriptural or logical sense. If grace could not be resisted, then everyone would be saved because, according to 1st Peter 3, God wants all to come to repentance so they can received His grace. Furthermore, how can someone blaspheme the Holy Ghost (i.e. the only unforgivable sin, which is to proclaim in one's heart that which is of the Holy Ghost is of the Devil) if grace is irresistible? The Holy Ghost (who is God) is the very essence of grace, and so it would be impossible to do so, which would mean the verses warning us of the only unforgivable sin would be superfluous and vanity.

I think the reason he may have contacted me in the first place (because he did not tell me why he wrote me that in 2014), is because I wrote a teaching called "False Converts vs Eternal Security," and another one called, "Predestination vs Free Will," and those generally shoot down Calvinism.

I have never understood why people write to me and try to get me to agree with their particular denominational garbage. I have certainly been fooled by false doctrines in the past, but I have never bowed the knee to denominations, and though I am not saying that people who are in denominations are unsaved (because that is not a requirement for salvation), I certainly am cautious of those who are in them, and this is one more reason for that.

Thanks, Rowan, for that concise explanation, it was helpful to me.

[Rowan M.]

Glad to have helped, Chris.

To Calvinists, irresistible grace means that if you are one of The Elect ("predestined" to be saved) then you will be unable to resist God's grace. You might live a wicked life for a while, but sooner or later, God's grace will get you. They believe that, in His sovereign will, God has chosen The Elect for salvation (hence their fondness for the term "sovereign grace"). However, if you're not "predestined" to be saved, then you will always resist God's grace, since, according to their logic, eternal damnation is your destiny from birth. So grace is only irresistible for those whom God has "arbitrarily" chosen to be saved.

Limited atonement means that Christ only died for The Elect (I know that those who are truly born again can be called the elect, but I'm capitalising it a little sarcastically here because Calvinists believe that they are all in this "club" - in fact, it's really the foundation they build their belief in their salvation on IMO). As you can see, both these concepts are utterly un-Scriptural. I believe there are issues with the other three points as well (although "perseverance of the saints" is basically eternal security I think), but these two are particularly bad. In fact, if I recall rightly, there are some Calvinists who are only "two-pointers" or "three-pointers". I think these might reject or modify irresistible grace and limited atonement. It's only the most hardcore ones who adhere religiously to all five TULIP points. Charles Spurgeon is perhaps the most famous Calvinist, and Arthur Pink is another notable one, but a well-known Calvinist today is John MacArthur.

Just for the record, I have never been a Calvinist, but in my travels through Christian sections of the Internet over the years, I have come across my share of Calvinist websites and heard sermons either promoting or debunking it (SermonAudio is full of Calvinists, although there are some on there who are not). So I have ended up learning a reasonable amount about it, either through study or just by osmosis. One last thing before I close: many of them tend to idolise Augustine and John Calvin, and I have seen some who treated the writings of these men almost as sacred texts. There are also some who believe that you're not a Christian unless you're a Calvinist. So there is a lot of leaven within Calvinism, although I think there are some born-again believers involved with it because they don't yet have enough discernment to see the many problems with it (I reckon it could be quite easy for new believers to get sucked into it, especially because Calvinists often talk up their belief in eternal security, a key point that distinguishes them from Arminians, who believe in free will but conditional security).

[creationliberty]

So it basically comes back to Calvinists do not want to believe that God has given men the liberty to choose for themselves. Why that is such an egregious thought to them is the real question. If we get to bottom of that, then we also get to the bottom of why they teach such nonsense, and will know better how to answer them.

[anvilhauler]

The guy is full of weasel words and has no humility and refuses to humble himself.  Even once basic facts are pointed out to him he would rather be contentious than accepting of the truth. 

It was actually sickening to read his replies.  He has no regard for the truth and he has no regard for the word of God.  After your replies he should be shaking in his boots, but I'm sure he isn't.

[creationliberty]

I thought about this thread this morning, and since it's been a couple of weeks, I decided to go back to Wagner's website to see if anything changed. Did he fix anything so people could more easily find where to read his book for free?

Nope. Why not? That's easy: He doesn't care.

You can go to the front page of his site and check it out for yourself. See how long it takes you to find where you can read it; you just have to get past all the "buy here" "buy on amazon" and "get discounts" buttons and links.

Like I said, it's not wrong to make a living on the work you do. That's normal, and something God intended for all mankind. The problem is when you claim to have a ministry, and you're not ministering as much as you're marketing.

[Jeanne]

So it basically comes back to Calvinists do not want to believe that God has given men the liberty to choose for themselves. Why that is such an egregious thought to them is the real question. If we get to bottom of that, then we also get to the bottom of why they teach such nonsense, and will know better how to answer them.

If a man has full liberty to choose whether to believe the Gospel or not, his fate is in his own hands and he alone has full responsibility for his ultimate fate. On the other hand, if God has already chosen who is to be saved and who is not, then God is the one responsible. I think it all comes down to avoiding responsibility.

I could be wrong about this, but that seems logical to me...