Exposing a Woman Named 'Madonna'

[creationliberty]

In Feb of 2020, a woman (who now lives in Florida) named Madonna joined our church, and in December of that same year, she left in anger before any of us had a chance to talk with her. Under normal circumstances, I would not be posting any of this information, but this woman has become so manipulative and vindictive, she has left me no choice. Last week, we found out that Madonna has been searching for contact information from new members to this forum, sneaking around to try and manipulate them against me personally before they have had a chance to converse with any of us.

I also recently found out that she has been successful in her endeavors to some degree, and that's why she keeps doing it. Since Madonna has attempted to do these things in secret, and she won't come forward with the truth of her actions, I'm now going to make them public for all to see. Hopefully, if anyone is contacted by this woman and is confused by her rhetoric, we can send them this link to clear up the matter. Whether or not any of you choose to listen to her is up to you, and we still wish you well if you choose to leave based on what she says, but I hope you'll read this first to make sure you get all facts.

Madonna did not come into the church by the normal means everyone else does, and I made the mistake of trying to be charitable to her because she claimed not to have much understanding with computers in her old age. This turned out to be false, but that is the way she manipulates people. She is elderly, but she knows how to use phones, Skype, and other programs well enough, and we now know she simply wanted to avoid having to join the church by having discussion with us first because she knows that likely would have revealed her for who she is.

Furthermore, when she joined, she expected to be treated as some sort of matriarch because she claims she was saved at the age of 12, which would mean that she had ALLEGEDLY been saved for about 50 years. However, the evidence of her salvation was lacking the more we talked with her. (i.e. Today, I do not believe she was ever born again in Christ.) Nonetheless, she wanted to be treated like she was the female bringer of wisdom to all the church, and when I would have to rebuke her on an almost weekly basis for bringing false information into the church, she did not like it.

I remember one example that I think will help give a good idea of what Madonna was doing during our weekly Skype calls in our church. I happened to mention "Where's Waldo?" (i.e. the children's book) in a joking manner concerning something we were talking about. Immediately upon saying this, Madonna tells everyone that it was a historical fact that "Where's Waldo" was created by the Jesuits to train children to hunt down Christians because "Waldo" was supposed to be representative of the "Waldensians." (i.e. the 15th century Christians who were being killed by the Catholic Church for preaching the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ)

At that point, I asked Madonna where she got that information from. She stuttered (as she normally does when she's called out on making up things from her imagination and treating them like they're facts), and then said she "couldn't remember." I took a few minutes and looked up a number of sources talking about the origin of "Where's Waldo?" and it turns out that it was created in the 20th century by an Australian man, and it was originally called "Where's Wally?" but was only changed to "Waldo" for marketing reasons when it came the U.S.

Whereas Madonna had no information or references for her statement, she then demanded to know where I got my information from. See the hypocrisy? She would do this almost every week with something, and it was always about Jesuit conspiracies.

Now, don't misunderstand; I believe the Jesuits are a secret cabal that do wicked things in the dark, and that is a conspiratorial organization by definition. However, to Madonna, EVERYTHING she disagreed with was a Jesuit conspiracy because she was one of those people who I would say treated her ideas about Jesuit conspiracies as if it were of equal importance to the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

For example, one time, our church got to discussing the corruptions of Martin Luther because I had written an expose on the unbiblical nature of denominations, and Madonna immediately jumps in to defend Martin Luther, treating him with the same importance as if he were one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. When I started to give her direct quotes from some of the wicked things that Martin Luther said, her response was to argue that all those bad things were inserted into history books by the Jesuits to make him look bad.

Knowing Madonna as I had come to know her, I knew she didn't have one tiny bit of evidence to her claim, she would always just state these things as fact, and then expected us to trust her feelings (i.e. because she is also one of those people who believe that her feelings are the equivalent of the Holy Ghost, which is a dangerous philosophy for many Scriptural reasons). So I asked her, "How do you know the Jesuits did not write in the good things about Martin Luther to deceive you?" Of course, as she normally does, she stutters because she got called out, and I remember, she paused for a moment, and then asked, "What?!" I repeated my question in more detail to try and help her understand because, if you claim that the Jesuits inserted information into historical records, then we can't trust ANY historical records, including the things that Madonna favors, or in other words, her way of thinking would not allow us to believe ANYTHING that was written throughout history, and so Madonna's personal feelings would become the ultimate decider of "truth" because she believes her feelings are the equivalent of the Holy Ghost.

So why did we put up with her in the church for so long? Charity and patience. That's why. And she took advantage of our good manners. It took me a few months to realize what was going on, but Madonna is extremely manipulative because she does something called "gaslighting." When Madonna was called out on the garbage she was spewing out of her mouth, she would push back with rapid fire questions that had nothing to do with the subject matter, in order to make you forget about the topic at hand, and then question your own sanity to wonder if you had any reasoning in the first place. She's very good at it, and if you don't stop her mouth when she starts doing it, she will manipulate you, and she was successful at doing it with about five other members of our church, who all left about the same time she did in December of 2020.

The next part of this story I will try to keep brief because there are a lot of details that would take too long to explain. Our church had a big event meetup. Many of us are online in different states and countries, so we had our first event to meetup together for a week at our home in Indiana (i.e. many of us had never met face to face). With the help of some of my family out here, we had places for everyone to stay, and were all ready to go, but behind our backs, Madonna (with the help of two women she manipulated) arranged an AirBnB house for her and the two women specifically (without contact any of the elders running the event), and that house they rented was located in Indianapolis, a two-hour round trip drive from our home. In case you don't understand, she and the other two women were traveling a two-hour round trip everyday throughout the week, and spending most of their time together by themselves, away from the rest of the church, at the AirBnB.

If any of you are asking yourselves why she would do this, or how that makes sense, please let us know if you figure it out because we're now a year later, and our church has STILL not been able to make sense of this. Skipping past a LOT of other weird things that went on, the bottom line was that there was gossip rumors going around based on this group (there were total of 4 women and 2 men where the problem was coming from), and Lorraine and I were working so hard with little sleep to feed and take care of 20 people in our church--I finally had had enough. The day before everyone left, I sat everyone down and just got everything off my chest. I was tired of the facade, so I called them all out in front of the church.

Madonna obviously took great offense to this, but she put on a show, a big act full of niceties, giving everyone hugs afterwards and acting like we had all worked things out. However, two days after everyone left, Madonna gets on Skype and starts sending us Scripture references that she claimed we all need to read. This was sent in a very vindictive manner, and the Scripture was not used for the purpose of our study and understanding, but she sent them to us in a vengeful manner like a back-handed slap. One of the elders in our church saw this, and gently asked her what this was all about? She would not respond. Within a few days, the four women left the church without EVER addressing the church as a whole over their grievances (and the two men did the same thing a few weeks later), while hypocritically accusing me of not following proper Biblical procedure, when I DID address the church as a whole multiple times, and the church knows this, and can testify to this fact.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
-Mat 18:15-17
NONE of the six people who left (which includes Madonna) did that. They all ignored the commandments of Christ while accusing me of refusing to do what they refused to do.

Madonna absolutely did not want to do this because she viewed herself as a "matriarch" of the church, and she believes she should not have to be held accountable for anything she says and does, and because I don't want to make this too long, I'm leaving out TONS of details that would make your head spin. However, I will leave that to the rest of the church who witnessed these things, as I will state in a moment.

This is a warning to new members to our forum, this woman might try to contact you and manipulate you. If you want to leave us and follow her, that's your decision, but whatever you decide to do, please keep studying Scripture and stay vigilant.

Madonna chose to start sneaking around, skulking in the darkness to try and manipulate people, so we're bringing her to the light now since she's too cowardly to come forward.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
-Eph 5:8-13

If any members of our church have had interaction with Madonna, and you would like to share your testimony (including any evidence, like direct quotes and screenshots of conversations you have had with her) feel free to do so. If there is anything I have said here that any of you remember, and you would like to confirm it and back up what I said, feel free to do that too; it helps when we back up each others' testimonies.
If anyone here has NOT had interaction with her, please do not comment because I don't want this thread to get jumbled. The purpose of this thread is to provide information so new members who are contacted by her can get all the facts and make their own decision about what they are reading.

If Madonna reads this, please know that God will judge all these matters, and all the hearts of men will be revealed for what they are, including yours, so it is important that you come to repentance and faith in Christ so you can be born again before it's too late.

[heathertaylor]

I joined the church around the time of the Madonna Madness. As I would join in on the church chats and the Ladies chat, I started realizing right off the bat that her speech was odd. Like the things she would say just sounded off.

John 10:5
“And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” 
 
I did not say anything because I thought that since Madonna had been here for a while and I was new, that I probably was just being uncharitable in my thoughts and wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. This way of thinking continued on while Madonna would share things with me and she would send me videos of other "Christian" people and video links to doctrine of the book of Revelation. I didn't watch much of these things. Something seemed underhanded about it but I didn't realize fully in that moment. Her demeanor on the chats were frivolous and feigned charity but was full of uncharitable acts. I remember she would suggest homeopathic medicines but would shove a roll in her face and eat while she talked.. It just conflicted me a bit. But i just ..yet again, let it roll.
Also Dee would talk with me from time to time. She helped me one time pay for my minutes on my phone. Don't be fooled... She did a nice gesture but I see now that it was all works based doctrinal believing. Im thankful for that help but I realized later on she was trying to get me to see Chris in a bad light. One night we had a prayer chat and I came into the prayer chat a little late and had not realized the church was in the middle of praying and i spoke and interrupted the prayer and Chris informed me that they was in the middle of praying. I felt bad for interrupting but didn't worry about it. Dee later talks to me and tells me that Chris is mean like that a lot. I then told her that it is no big deal. Then she noticed I wasn't going to gossip and dropped the matter.

Fast forward to the meet up that I was not able to attend but desperately wanted to but then was informed it was good that I wasn't there because it didn't go well.

I think I may be able to shed some light on why these women did not stay close by during this church meet up. For one.. They are not the body of Christ. Number 2.. They did not like Chris and still do not. They believe Chris to be mean and they do not like being corrected or rebuked. So they wanted to stay far away to not hear correction but close enough to make themselves think they are of the body of believers and they don't have a love of the truth.
Now I'm not saying that Chris doesn't make mistakes.. He plainly says this multiple times that be messes up. But they take his correction as him being mean. He may show frustration when dealing with different types of situations... But if you spent years dealing with trying to expose the false doctrines, hours upon hours of studying and to have some willy nilly power hungry woman come in and try to steal sheep and speak all sorts of corrupt things that sound nice but are total lies.... It's frustrating and probably a sure way to anger someone. What false converts can't seem to grasp bevause of their pride, is that the correction Is Love for them.  Madonna couldn't see this love. Madonna is literally doing the devil's bidding and she sadly may not see this. Because her underhanded and secret deception to pull away ppl from the truth and the body of believers, is a give away of who she truly serves.
John 8:41-47
King James Version
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Madonna is the stony soil and the seeds of God's word has fallen on the stones.

Matthew 13:20-21
King James Version
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 

I'm thankful to the Lord Jesus Christ for making a way for me to be born into the family of God and giving me Grace and forgiveness and having the Holy Spirit and The Word so that I can see these lies more and more each time these type of people come my way..

Madonna tried to contact me one on one after she was no longer a part of the church and I just knew it was wrong for her to do that and I blocked her. I regret not saying something to her but that may just be me being a coward at this early stage of being a Christian. Im not fully sure. I just wanted to cut off contact with her and anyone connected to the drama but was willing to hear if they were repentant. But none have repented for their actions. 
I still do not understand fully why they can't see that but I will continue to pray for them all. And for the church as well to follow the Word of God.

[heathertaylor]

Adding to that ... I am not sure if all those that departed around the same time as Madonna are lost. It's possible that some are saved but may just be deceived? I don't know.

[Jeanne]

This is the Skype conversation Chris was referring to when he said Madonna was posting a bunch of random Scriptures with no context:

13 December, 2020

Madonna, 12:34 AM
(Philippians 1:15-20) "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:  {16} The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:  {17} But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.  {18} What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.  {19} For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,  {20} According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death."

Madonna, 12:45 AM
5When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

Madonna, 12:51 AM
(Matthew 19:19) "Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Timothy, 12:51 AM
Are there people on a call today? I’m not understanding why you’re posting those Scriptures.

Madonna, 12:56 AM
No people; I just was lead by my Lord to exhort the church with God word.

Timothy, 12:58 AM
But in what context are you posting those verses at random like that? That doesn’t make sense. You’re not explaining who they are directed to or why.

Madonna, 12:59 AM
(Mark 9:42) "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Timothy, 1:03 AM
Posting random verses like that is not exhortation. Exhortation requires explanation of how they apply to something and encouraging people to do a certain thing. Anyone here can open their Bibles at random and be “exhorted” with your method. But real exhortation requires understanding of the matter. So why are you posting these verses?

Madonna, 1:06 AM
(Matthew 23:23-24) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.  {24} Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

Jeanne 1:07 AM
Madonna, are you reading anything Timothy has said?

Timothy, 1:07 AM
Is there something I’m doing wrong Madonna? You need to explain yourself.

Madonna, 1:14 AM
Isn't it alright to post God word if it doesn't apply to you then you are at liberty to to reject it.

Timothy, 1:15 AM
I never said it was wrong. I was just asking why.

Jeanne 1:15 AM
Just like in the forum, Madonna, posting random scriptures with no explanation serves no discernible purpose

Timothy, 1:16 AM
I don’t understand why you’re getting so upset about it Madonna.

Jeanne 1:16 AM
If you want to post scripture, that's fine, but you should explain WHY you are posting it

Madonna, 1:19 AM
 
(Galatians 5:1) "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Timothy, 1:23 AM
Madonna. This is ridiculous coming from you. You should know better than to act this way. You need to explain why you’re posting this and reasoning with whoever you have a problem with. This is not imparting wisdom to anyone if you don’t explain clearly what it is you’re doing and I’m seeing a lot of pride in your responses right now.

Madonna, 1:23 AM
If God is speaking though thee scripture then examine one heart if and stand in one liberty. I am not upset with anything.

I'm simply sharing god"s word .

Timothy, 1:26 AM
I disagree. You do have a problem and you’re not explaining what it is. This is your prideful heart I’m starting to see that you are posting these verses in response to me and Jeanne accusing us of something while saying you have no problem with anyone. I’m seeing pride and lies coming from you right now and this has got to stop.

Jeanne 1:26 AM
You're not making any sense, Madonna, Again; WHY ARE YOU POSTING ALL THIS while completely ignoring anything Timothy or I have said?

Timothy, 1:29 AM
This is also an example of murmuring by giving a complaint without being completely open about it. In other words you’re suppressing the complaint you made when you responded with Matthew 23. That verse was clearly directed towards Jeanne and I.

Jeanne 1:29 AM
Please explain why you have 'felt led' to post all this. This would not be tolerated in the forum, so what makes you think it's okay to do it here?

Madonna, 1:30 AM
none of these verse is directed to anyone

Jeanne 1:30 AM
Then why are you posting them with no explanation?
This is called 'Skype chat' because it's for CONVERSATION. What you're doing, Madonna, is not conversation; it's just distraction at this point.

Madonna, 1:40 AM
Their are situations that needs to have God word apply without calling any one person  to task God word can convict us ; I need these exhorting as well anyone,

Jeanne 1:49 AM
EXHORT', verb transitive egzhort'. [Latin exhortor; ex and hortor, to encourage, to embolden, to cheer, to advise. The primary sense seems to be to excite or to give strength, spirit or courage.]

1. To incite by words or advice; to animate or urge by arguments to a good deed or to any laudable conduct or course of action.

I exhort you to be of good cheer. Acts 27:22.

Young men also exhort to be sober minded.

EXHORT servants to be obedient to their masters. Titus 2:6.

2. To advise; to warn; to caution.

3. To incite or stimulate to exertion.

EXHORT', verb intransitive To deliver exhortation; to use words or arguments to incite to good deeds.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort Acts 2:40.
Please explain how what you are doing fits with the definition of exhortation, Madonna.

Timothy, 1:50 AM
You need to stop dodging the matter, Madonna. The Holy Spirit doesn’t give understanding by randomly giving verses. We are taught and exhorted with understanding of the verses not only by the context, but in the application of those verses as well. You need to explain the specific reason you’re posting these, to whom it applies and why. Randomly going by what you “felt” is good is being led by your own heart on this matter, not the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

You’re doing this foolishly especially since you’re not being reasonable in what little explanation you’re giving because your explanation makes no sense to anyone. Again, with your method of “exhortation”, any of us can randomly open our Bibles, read a verse and have a fuzzy feeling about it. But the understanding of those verses comes from explanation of them and how they apply. I don’t see the Holy Spirit operating that way that makes no sense to the church.

Jeanne 1:54 AM
From what I've heard from Josh and Steve, I get the impression that not everything was all rainbows and sunshine while everyone was in Indiana. I don't have a clue as to what any of that is all about, since I wasn't there and didn't have Internet access for most of the time that was going on, but if all this has anything to do with any of that, then it's making no sense to me.
To be clear, neither of those guys mentioned any names or specifics; they just said the church needs prayer. I don't know what about...

Dee, 5:13 AM
Church family, let's move on from this. Each of us ought to examine ourself.  If we are not forgiving, that is a sin.

We are holding on to our hurts, even though all of us were sorry and then we all hugged. Let's pray the Lord will help us with the forgiveness., and ask the Lord to give each of us healing from these and all hurts from our past.
So we can have joy and God’s Peace, and move forward.

Let us be thankful to have found each other; it's hard to find true Christians.
(Josh and i have walked miles evangelizing, and have found none.)

We've got to be kind, love each other, and forgive each other…
as God loves us, and as He forgives us.

Philippians 3:13
“Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,”

Jeanne 5:17 AM
Dee, I was just confused as to why Madonna was posting all those scriptures. I didn't know if it had anything to do with any of the stuff that happened or not. But the point was, whether it did or didn't, she needed to explain what she was posting and why.

Dee, 5:58 AM
Madonna was exiting the church and was posting scriptures for us.  She explained that the people who read it will understand.  She has kindness and love towards you all.
But you were unkind to her.  These were all scriptures she wanted to post, but she kept being interrupted before she could get all the verses posted.  The Holy Spirit is a gentle Spirit.  Examine yourselves.  Do you have the Holy Spirit in you?  Are you gentle, kind?  Our sister has been spoken to in a most unkind way.  There is nothing wrong with sharing God's Word.  Let it speak to us who would receive it.  I didn't know there's "rules" on how to share God's Word.   edited 9:17 pm PT (I read the original post before she edited it, and it looks a lot 'nicer' now than what she originally wrote. However, since this was over a year ago, I can't remember now what she did say at first.)

Jeanne 6:04 AM
Posting things like that in one of the small group chats is one thing, but when the whole church is involved, the same rules apply here as on the forum. We've had to rebuke many people there for posting random scriptures with no explanation or context, and Madonna ignored my and Tim's requests to provide such explanation and just kept posting. So yes, the rebuke was necessary.

Dee, 6:06 AM
You speak unkindly.  That is not of God.

Tonya, 6:34 AM
This needs to stop. Madonna was rightfully repute for posting scripture with no context. Dee, you know I care about you and sometimes rebuke has to be sharp. I know you don’t like it when you think people are being unkind, but it is actually kind to give people sharp rebuke sometimes.

I think everybody needs to stop and take a deep breath. We should all be examining ourselves carefully. I include myself in that.

This is the kind of thing Chris was talking about on Wednesday for those of you that were there. We all need to make sure we are doing what is right.

Ellie, 6:37 AM
I didn’t want to say anything because I am new here but I’m a little concerned about what is going on. I personally was confused about the verses that Madonna was posting and before anyone even responded I was wondering if I should ask her what it was about because I thought that maybe she was on a call and accidentally sending verses to the chat with the whole church. The verses she sent are good in their context and I think with some explanation maybe it would have been helpful. I’m not upset with her for it, but i can speak for myself in saying that i was personally kind of confused about it and it didn’t make sense to me what the correlation was between the verses she was sending before anyone even responded yet. First the verse about preaching Christ of envy and strife, then a verse about a man taking a new wife, and then the verse about honoring thy father and mother. These were all before anyone responded and when I read them I was just confused about what the reason was. They’re all good verses, but I think it’s reasonable that Jeanne and Tim wanted to know what the purpose was and then going on to explain the meaning of exhortation. I don’t think there is anything wrong with sharing Bible verses, but all I’m saying is that it is reasonable to give some sort of explanation for why those specific verses were chosen or what was gleaned from them in her personal study. Otherwise it’s easy for people to become confused. And it seems out of the people who have responded, at least a few people were confused by it including myself and just wanted some clarification about what the purpose was in sending those ones.

Sometimes it’s hard to have these kinds of conversations over a chat because the “tone” can be misinterpreted when just speaking directly about things. I think that’s important to take note of when evaluating what happened today and what was said. I hope it’s okay for me to say this and I’m not out of line in anything.

Jeanne 6:42 AM
Ellie, you're not out of line at all. There were several people who were confused by what Madonna was posting and, as we all know, God is not the author of confusion.

Ellie, 6:45 AM
And I don’t even want it to seem like anyone is ganging up on Madonna or anything because I don’t feel that way at all and I am not trying to do that to her in the slightest. I only wanted to say something because I don’t want this sort of conflict to happen (as I’m sure none of us truly want it) and I just hope that there can be understanding between everyone and that it can be resolved peaceably through proper communication, self examination, and patience on everyone’s part.

END CONVERSATION

As has already been stated, what Ellie hoped for in the last paragraph did NOT happen. Madonna left and took five other people with her. What those people are doing now and where they are getting their teaching from is anybody's guess. There was a new member who came on the forum a few weeks ago, and actually joined the church, but she also left after being contacted by Madonna and believing her lies, and she would not discuss it with the rest of the church, either.

[creationliberty]

Just to clarify, Madonna wrote all this two days after she was giving everyone hugs and saying everyone was just fine in the church. We had no other communication with her between that day, and the Skype conversation.

Why did she keep it a secret that she was leaving the church? Why didn't she talk to us about it while we were all face-to-face? Why the facade and deception?

In Madonna's view, we are the only ones who need to examine ourselves. She doesn't need to do it because she feels she is the "matriarch." That was my point. It's exactly what Tim said in the Skype chat a year ago... it's pride of heart. We wanted to reason with her, but she wanted to slap and run. There's nothing more we can do, but since she is STILL continuing to manipulate and deceive people behind the scenes, now we have to bring all this out publicly.

Food for thought: If I am so terrible, as Madonna claims, and we are all a wicked religious cult, then why does she still come here and read the discussion on our forum? Hmm.

Whatever those six people who left want to do is up to them. We don't sneak around and try to figure out everything their doing. It's their business, not ours. We don't skulk around in the darkness to get some sort of revenge for something. However, that's what Madonna is doing because she is a busybody.
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
-1Pe 4:15

So, if you know them by their fruits, all we have to do is ask ourselves who is operating openly in the light, and who is skulking around in the shadows? It's not rocket science.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
-Eph 5:9-14

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-John 3:19-21

[Rowan M.]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here, because I have not had direct dealings with Madonna myself, and Chris had said not to post in this thread unless we had been involved with her. But after I posted it in another section, he was OK with me putting it here as well, so without further ado ...

Even though I wasn't around last year, I have seen the kind of behaviour being exhibited by Madonna and Dee in that Skype conversation before. I've witnessed it in my own mother, and in a few other people as well. So although I might not know these particular women directly, I know their type quite well. I have some understanding of the games they're playing. So I would just like to offer my own analysis of what they were saying. Before I dive in deeper, I would like to say that the behaviour of both Madonna and Dee can probably be summed up in one word: disingenuous. They were saying one thing on the surface, but there were a whole lot of "coded messages" underneath. Essentially, they were speaking with guile. What they said and what they actually meant were two different things. Here are a few Scriptures concerning the use of guile:

Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. (Psalm 34:13)

For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile (1 Thessalonians 2:3 - particularly apt since Madonna was claiming she just wanted to "exhort"!)

For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile (1 Peter 3:10)

Anyway, here is my take on what Madonna and Dee were saying "on the surface", and then what I think they really meant, or what their true intentions were.

What Madonna said: "No people; I just was lead by my Lord to exhort the church with God word."
My take: God does not lead people to post random Scriptures with no context or obvious application. So for Madonna to claim that she is being led by the Lord is a flat-out lie. (It's interesting that she said "my Lord" rather than "the Lord", because I think Madonna has another "lord" that is not God.) As Tim said later in the conversation, she was really being led by her own heart or feelings. Right from this first statement, Madonna's guile becomes apparent.

What Madonna said: "Isn't it alright to post God word if it doesn't apply to you then you are at liberty to to reject it."
My take: I think Madonna might be using strawman logic here. The REAL issue is that she was posting random Scriptures with no context. There was no question of it being acceptable to post Scriptures GENERALLY. But she tried to make that the issue. So, she set up a strawman and attacked that to DEFLECT from what Tim and Jeanne were addressing.

What Madonna said: "If God is speaking though thee scripture then examine one heart if and stand in one liberty. I am not upset with anything. I'm simply sharing god"s word ."
My take: She's sending passive-aggressive "coded messages" and trying to imply that if anyone is upset by it, this is actually the result of God speaking through her random Scriptures. The phrase "examine one [sic] heart" is decidedly pointed. Claiming she's not upset is an obvious lie and probably an attempt to gaslight. And as for saying she's sharing God's Word and nothing more, that's totally disingenuous. There is definitely MORE going on.

What Madonna said: "none of these verse is directed to anyone"
My take: She IS directing the verses at someone (probably Chris, but maybe others she has a beef with), but doesn't want to admit that, because she's playing some bizarre mind game. She's trying to give herself an "out" with plausible deniability. What Madonna is really doing in this conversation is WEAPONISING the Scriptures. Rather than using them to edify or exhort, what she's actually doing is using them as a device to make a point, or to score points, or something along those lines. My mother used to weaponise hymns in a similar manner. If she was feeling offended with me or my dad, or with near neighbours, she would sing hymns very loudly as a way to "drive the Devil out" or something of that sort. But it was also about scoring points against whomever she had a quarrel with. The last thing my mother's hymn-singing had to do with was glorifying or worshipping God. Come to think of it, my mother occasionally used the Scriptures as a kind of carnal weapon also. It was all about the coded messages, not edifying or teaching. Likewise, Madonna is not trying to serve God with her Scripture posts, but her own agenda. Instead of using the Bible as the sword of the Spirit, Madonna is turning it into her own personal sword.

What Madonna said: "Their are situations that needs to have God word apply without calling any one person  to task God word can convict us ; I need these exhorting as well anyone,"
My take: When Madonna talks of "situations", she really means her specific situation (or her particular beef), but doesn't want to come right out and say it. Saying that God's word can convict us essentially means that she expects people to be mind-readers. The people she's addressing are supposed to "know" what she's getting at with the verses she's using and be "convicted" accordingly. This is a tactic that toxic people often use. They will make some vague statement and then expect you to read their mind. When you inevitably misunderstand them, this gives them ammunition to attack you with. Saying that she needs exhorting as well is really just another smokescreen - she's trying to cover up her attack by claiming that she's aiming the verses at herself too.

So that concludes what Madonna said in the conversation. Dee then took over, and I'll now examine most of her contributions.

What Dee said: "Church family, let's move on from this. Each of us ought to examine ourself.  If we are not forgiving, that is a sin."
Actual meaning: "Stop trying to hold Madonna accountable for her behaviour." That's the main point of this whole first line. Her comment about examining ourselves is implying that there is hypocritical judgement going on (at least, that's my read of what I think her real intended meaning is). But it's all vague hints rather than specifics. One thing on the surface, a whole lot more underneath. The bit about not being forgiving seems to be something of a strawman. Dee is making a statement that's not really applicable to the immediate situation. More deflection. Even in a wider context though, she seems to be forgetting about the necessity for repentance. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (Luke 17:3) Note the command to rebuke in that verse as well!

What Dee said: "We are holding on to our hurts, even though all of us were sorry and then we all hugged. Let's pray the Lord will help us with the forgiveness., and ask the Lord to give each of us healing from these and all hurts from our past. So we can have joy and God’s Peace, and move forward."
My take: This has absolutely nothing to do with the Skype conversation. Tim and Jeanne asking Madonna for clarification is not "holding on to hurts"! I suppose it might have some wider application to the Indiana meetup (which of course, I don't know too much about). Dee is being a kind of "false peacemaker" here. All the talk about forgiveness and moving forward is covering up the issue at hand. It's another smokescreen, basically.

What Dee said: "We've got to be kind, love each other, and forgive each other… as God loves us, and as He forgives us."
My take: This is so disingenuous it does my head in. She is again using false peacemaking to DEFLECT and DISTRACT from Madonna's behaviour. What she says sounds good in a GENERAL sense, but is not applicable to the specific context.

What Dee said: "Madonna was exiting the church and was posting scriptures for us.  She explained that the people who read it will understand.  She has kindness and love towards you all. But you were unkind to her.  These were all scriptures she wanted to post, but she kept being interrupted before she could get all the verses posted.  The Holy Spirit is a gentle Spirit.  Examine yourselves.  Do you have the Holy Spirit in you?  Are you gentle, kind?  Our sister has been spoken to in a most unkind way.  There is nothing wrong with sharing God's Word.  Let it speak to us who would receive it.  I didn't know there's 'rules' on how to share God's Word."
My take: There is a lot here that reminds me of Samantha's parting words (in the Church Discussion section). I'm sure that Dee as well as Madonna have influenced Sam. It says a lot that after preaching on being kind and forgiving, Dee then shows a decided lack of kindness or forgiveness with her accusations. The statement "the people who read it will understand" means that Madonna was indeed using her Scripture quotes to send a kind of "coded message" in a very passive-aggressive manner. As for "She has kindness and love towards you all", well someone with kindness and love would not act the way that Madonna did. The Holy Spirit is often gentle, but He moved holy men to write the Scriptures, which are full of all manner of rebukes and reproofs. Indeed, He moved Paul to give instructions about sharp rebukes. E.g. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith (Titus 1:13) Ananias and Sapphira were killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. Not much gentleness there! Gentleness is only ONE aspect of the Holy Spirit's nature, not His ENTIRE nature in itself. Dee's last snarky comment about "rules" overlooks the fact that Scripture can be misused, which Madonna was doing. There are in fact right and wrong ways to share God's Word.

What Dee said: "You speak unkindly.  That is not of God"
Actual meaning: "I don't like what you're saying, therefore you are being unkind". That's basically Dee's logic. Again, this is quite similar to the accusations Samantha made in her parting post. And as I pointed out to Samantha, Jesus was not very kind to the Pharisees in Matthew 23 (which ironically, Madonna quoted a couple of verses from)! Both Jesus and John the Baptist called the Pharisees a "generation of vipers". Not too kind there! There was nothing unkind in what Jeanne was saying though. (This remark by Dee was a direct reply to Jeanne.) She was simply explaining why it was necessary to rebuke Madonna. She wasn't belittling Madonna, or insulting her, or saying anything else that could justifiably be termed unkind.

The way in which that Skype conversation unfolded made it very obvious that Madonna and Dee were squarely in the wrong in that situation. Even if I had known nothing else about them, just looking at that one conversation, and the way they were behaving in it, shows very clearly that they were up to no good. It's great that Jeanne kept that conversation, because it is important evidence backing up what Chris said in his initial post. The character of these women becomes that much more apparent. And as I say, I have seen that exact same sort of thing in other people (mainly women for some reason), including my mother. What George Orwell might call "doublespeak" (although he actually coined "doublethink" rather than "doublespeak"). Saying "innocent"-sounding things that have a whole lot of nasty hidden meanings, but continuing to play innocent anyway. It's extremely insidious.

Anyway, I hope this has been at least somewhat useful. In particular, if some of you are still trying to make sense of it all, I hope my observations will help it make a little more sense. As I say, although I might not have been there at the time, I know this type of game-playing behaviour only too well. So I know many of the "mechanics" of it. In fact, growing up with it, and experiencing more of it from other people in adulthood, means I'm far more familiar with it than I would have ever wished to be. But hopefully I have been able to put that familiarity to good use here for the benefit and edification of all.

[Timothy]

What Madonna said: "none of these verse is directed to anyone"
My take: She IS directing the verses at someone (probably Chris, but maybe others she has a beef with), but doesn't want to admit that, because she's playing some bizarre mind game. She's trying to give herself an "out" with plausible deniability. What Madonna is really doing in this conversation is WEAPONISING the Scriptures. Rather than using them to edify or exhort, what she's actually doing is using them as a device to make a point, or to score points, or something along those lines.

That's exactly what she did. She had an agenda but she didn't want to be honest about what she was doing.

With it being so long ago now, I can't remember all the exact details but I'll explain the best I can from my memory. After the Skype conversation Jeanne posted above, one of the men who left the church started a call on Skype. His reason for it was to try to stop the contention on the chat, get everyone together who was involved and for all of us pray about it. I told them that I wasn't going to stop them from praying but that I wouldn't join in prayer with them without getting to the bottom of the matter and settling it first. I can't remember what all I said initially. I think I just re-explained what I had said on the chat.

Madonna then went on a 10 minute rant, yelling all sorts of accusations towards several people. I tried to interrupt her to explain something because she was going on so long about several different things, but she would not let me say a word. When I tried to say anything, she would just yell over me and continue her rant. There were so many accusations and complaints at such a rapid pace that I just simply cannot remember them all. I do remember her actually admitting that she was posting those verses to rebuke Chris before she would leave the church. I don't know if she even realized she said it because of how viciously angry she was.

When she finally finished, I tried to point out that she had lied because on the chat she stated "none of these verse is directed to anyone," and claimed she was "exhorting the church," but on the Skype call she admitted that they were directed to Chris as rebuke. She quickly left before I could say hardly anything to her, so I could only explain this to the people that were left (some of whom also later left the church).

The manner in which Madonna left is very different than what she had intended for it to appear. She left in a raging fit of lies, false accusations, and railing and didn't want to reason anything out with us.