New Member

[mpeay7]

  Hi Everyone I am a born-again Christian.
I'm a patriot, I like America's constitution and bill of rights.
I'm into deliverance ministry... No, not into the deliverance CULT.
I want to immerse myself in the bible and add to my group of known church family in Christ.

I have been delivered from drinking, smoking, drugs, the occult, the Mormon cult, homosexuality, paganism, feminism, new age..... And radical leftism. Oh, I was also delivered from delusions, devils, generational curses..

I'm a 26 Year old female, when I started on my journey with Christ, I was ready for the end. Literally, I was ready to end my life. As a last resort, I opened to Revelation in the bible. That related to how ready I was for the end! That is when I started to grow my hair out from shaving it for years- Even bicked bald! Since then, it has grown so long, I can tie a square knot- and start half of a second square knot!
The first four years of my walk with Jesus were bumpy and hard. I made a lot of mistakes, was a serious backslider.

Through dedication, trust, faith, and a lot of prayer, God has delivered me from gathering from the stubble. I can leave more nuance on that another time.


Praise Jesus, I am so happy to be here and I hope I can become aquainted.

Hello from Central Utah!
#drought

[Rowan M.]

Hi McKenna, and welcome.

You say that you're into "deliverance ministry". I assume you mean a ministry (nearly always Pentecostal in nature) that has a focus on casting evil spirits out of people? I remember when I used to listen to Radio Rhema here in New Zealand, there was a guy called Bill Subritsky who ran exactly this type of ministry, and he had a regular mid-evening segment in the 1990s. It was called Dove Ministries. (I just Googled it, and to my amazement, it's still active! He's still running it too.) Very much into faith healing and casting evil spirits out of people. That is the type of ministry that I would term a "deliverance ministry".

You say that you have been "delivered from delusions, devils, generational curses", which sounds a lot like a deliverance ministry (at least, as I understand it). What would you consider to be the difference between a deliverance ministry and deliverance cult, though? For that matter, what to you is THE deliverance cult?

You've certainly been into a lot of bad stuff, and it's great that you're no longer involved in those sins you mention. When you say you were "delivered" from all that though, did you actually repent of your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, or did you simply have an evil spirit or several cast out of you? There are a couple of warnings in the Bible about that:

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. (Matthew 12:43-45)

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. (Luke 11:24-26)

So sometimes people can have unclean spirits leave them, and they get their lives straightened out a bit. In that sense, they are "swept and garnished", just like a house is when people move out of it. But as the Matthew passage points out, they're also "empty". When a person is saved (born again by repenting and trusting in Christ), the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them (see for instance John 14:17, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Timothy 1:14). If you have the Holy Spirit in you, then you are not empty. (By the way, one of the errors of Pentecostalism is they seem to think that the Holy Spirit has to be "summoned" to enable speaking in tongues and suchlike during services, but this is false. Summoning spirits is a practice of witches, not Christians. The Holy Spirit has no need to be summoned, because He already dwells in saved Christians, and in any case, God is not at our beck and call - we are His servants, not the other way around.) But if you are not saved, and thus don't have the Spirit of God in you, and at the same time you are in a period of your life in which you don't have any evil spirits in you, then you are a bit like an empty house awaiting occupancy. So if the unclean spirit that left you previously shows up with his even more wicked friends, and takes up residence again with them, then any previous deliverance that may have resolved the original problem won't have solved anything in the long run, except provide a temporary reprieve. Notice also that in both passages, the unclean spirit refers to "my house". If a person has been saved and the Holy Spirit is indwelling them, then the "house" of their body no longer belongs to the unclean spirit, because now it has a new Owner and a new Occupant. But if they're still lost, then it does. The phrase "wicked generation" in the Matthew passage makes it clear that lost people are being referred to.

Anyway, what I'm driving at is that if you were merely "delivered" in the sense of having an evil spirit or spirits cast out of you, that is not the same thing as being born again. It is possible to be "delivered" (or at least, an unclean spirit can leave you) and yet still be lost. At least, that is my understanding, but if I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Being delivered from evil spirits (due to someone casting them out) is not what saves you. Repenting of your sins (grieving and sorrowing over the transgressions you have committed against God's Law, and the fact that you have wronged Him specifically - so the repentance must be towards God) and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (that His blood, shed for you on the cross, is sufficient to cleanse you from all sin because He became the perfect sacrifice for all of us, and that justification, redemption and forgiveness of sins are possible through faith in Him who rose again from the dead because we can do nothing to save ourselves) is how you become born again, and THAT is what saves you.

In your post, I am not seeing any clear evidence that you have been born again. Being a patriot is all well and good, but that doesn't make you a Christian (the way the Bible defines it - to be a Christian in God's eyes, you must be born again). You say that you opened your Bible to the Book of Revelation, but don't say what you found there that led to your conversion. It is good that you have made some changes in your life, but there were people in the Bible (like the Pharisees) who lived quite righteous lives in many respects, yet were still lost. You mention "dedication, trust, faith and a lot of prayer", which are all good things, but I don't see the word "repentance" in there anywhere, nor any clear explanation of how you got saved (apart from "being delivered", which as I have tried to explain, is not the same thing).

One other thing, what does the #drought thing mean? Is that a deliverance ministry thing? Otherwise, what exactly is it signifying? I'm really sorry, but I have never come across that before. I'm just asking out of curiosity.

If I have said anything amiss or in the wrong spirit, I'm sure (in fact I hope) that others here will straighten me out. Again, I'm glad that you have got out of a lot of the bad things you have, but I'm a bit concerned that you may have yet missed salvation. I was that way for many years. If you asked me 20 or 30 years ago (or even 10 years ago) if I was a Christian, I would have answered Yes, but I was a false convert back then, so in God's eyes, I was not, even though in my own eyes, I was. So I am saying what I am in this post with your best interests in mind, and I mean nothing unkind by any of it. By all means, get into the Bible (just make sure it's a King James Version, because there is a lot of corruption in the modern translations). But even more crucially, make certain you are saved (or if not, get saved as soon as possible, because you never know when your appointed time to die will come - see Hebrews 9:27). Anyway, thanks again for posting.

[Jeanne]

Hi McKenna, Rowan brought up some very good points. If you have not read/listened to the following teachings, I would urge you to do so for more clarification on what he was talking about. The first article is:

Is Repentance Part of Salvation?

And the audio for that teaching can be found here:

https://youtu.be/NEI_H3QUb7Q?t=20

The second teaching I would recommend is:

Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell

The audio for that one is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzhfoDnPtHE&list=PLbY08k2vP8_mVrhcGWXWpoM0nwj-rm5WO&index=1&t=0s

I look forward to hearing more from you and getting to know you better!

[Timothy]

I like a lot of what Rowan said in his response and I had a lot of the same questions. I also do not see any evidence of your salvation. The implication I get from your testimony is that you were once in a bunch of sin and then was "delivered" from those sins. That is not the gospel. That's a works salvation if that is what you are trusting to get to heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

From what I can find about "deliverance ministries" is that they think that they can cast out devils. Just because they believe they can do that does not mean that they are born-again Christians. What they do is not even casting out devils. Rather it's giving them "Christian consultation" that is not based on faith in Christ, tell them a works salvation to turn from their sins, and reject repentance and say that shame and grief of sins is from the Devil (which is blasphemy).

2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Psalms 83:13-18 - O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind. As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire; So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD. Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

This is from a site that talks about "deliverance ministry" saying that guilt and shame of sexual sins is from the devil:

"The Lord gave me a powerful revelation today on the hold that sexual sins have on people. Why are they so powerful to grip and hold a person in guilt and shame? It seems they are among the all-time, best-selling weapons that Satan uses against countless individuals around the world today!

Guilt and shame are known to tear a person to pieces spiritually. They make you feel guilty, separated from God, they rob you of your faith and rips you to pieces. They break God’s children down piece by piece, robbing them of their joy, peace, confidence and pure conscience. They are also valuable tools that demonic spirits use against a person in the forms of mental torment and harassment."
- (Guilt and Shame from Sexual Sins)

None of that is the gospel of Christ and it is blasphemy to say that what God gives people is from the Devil. They also believe that Christians can be possessed by devils, which Rowan pointed out is not Scriptural. I think the only thing about what Rowan said that I disagree with is that what he wrote implied that removing sin (or turning from your sins) is casting out devils. Doing as Christ and his apostles did by commanding devils to come out of people is casting out devils. Rowan is correct, though, that casting out devils does not equal salvation and it can actually lead to an even worse situation if the person does not get saved.

This is the information I found regarding "deliverance ministries," but we can't know for sure this is what you are talking about because you didn't tell us.

I'm into deliverance ministry... No, not into the deliverance CULT.

This statement just leaves us confused as to what you actually believe in. It's like saying you are part of Mormonism, but not the Mormonism cult. I hope it's not the "deliverance ministries" like what I described above. We can't know for sure this is what you believe because you didn't elaborate but I wanted to address this so that others can understand that their is leaven coming from that group and that they should stay away from their doctrine and focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what is going to deliver people from their sins.

Through dedication, trust, faith, and a lot of prayer, God has delivered me from gathering from the stubble. I can leave more nuance on that another time.

We all would rather you talk about those things in your introduction now rather than later because we want to know if you are truly born-again in Christ. But, from what I'm reading so far, it more so sounds like your "dedication" and "trust" is in the fact that you stopped doing a list of sins rather than repent (have godly sorrow of your sin) and put your faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for your sins.

Acts 20:21 - Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

I hope you take the time to address these things and explain how you claim to have been born-again. Also I also recommend that you would take a look at those links that Jeanne left and let us know what you think.

[creationliberty]

I have been delivered from drinking, smoking, drugs, the occult, the Mormon cult, homosexuality, paganism, feminism, new age..... And radical leftism. Oh, I was also delivered from delusions, devils, generational curses..

It's great to hear that you have come out of all that, but there are many people out there who have come out of the occult who are not saved. There are many people who have stopped smoking and drinking, but are not saved. There are many people who have come out of feminism and leftism, but they are not saved.

I'm a 26 Year old female, when I started on my journey with Christ, I was ready for the end.

Are you saying that you ARE 26, or that you WERE 26 at that time? But that part about "when I started my journey with Christ," would you share some more details about that?

[mpeay7]

To everyone with questions and feedback:

I am saved and very dedicated. There may not be evidence of my salvation in my introductory post because my post was very brief and my story is very long.

Re: Creation Liberty

"when I started my journey with Christ," would you share some more details about that?

When I first began to be drawn to Christ by God was when I was 21 or 22. I am 26 now. I wasn't immediately immersed into saved safety but blessed with being drawn to Christ over a number of years. I was homeless when I picked out a bible at the Shelter. I had serious demonic possession problems, curses to break, and a lot of trauma. I was essentially completely out of my mind, had extreme occult like delusions, and... well it's just difficult to explain.   
Since then, through being drawn to Christ, I have made life changing decisions to continue toward Christ. I left a lesbian relationship: Not because it was convenient, because through study I learned God isn't lenient on homosexuality. I quit my bad habits, smoking tobacco and marijuana, and drinking. I was drinking a lot.
I did not know what deliverance was until around 1 or 2 years after the homeless part of my life. Since discovering deliverance I have had the power, love, and a sound mind. Timothy 1:7

Speaking of Timothy....
Re: Timothy
First off I should tell you that your hyperlink for (Guilt and Shame for sexual sins) does not work. I couldn't visit the site or see which preacher said any of that. I am extremely careful about which ministers, teachers, and preacher I listen to. Especially when it comes to the message of deliverance, because I think it is easy to get wrong, and do wrong. Also you're right, if deliverance (this includes the casting out of devils) is done wrongly, it can create MORE problems than before.
I want you to feel relieved that I do know how to distinguish the difference between deliverance and salvation, the casting out of devils and repenting of sins.

the deliverance CULT

I'm referring specifically to "The Last Reformation" run by some guy named "Torbin". It is a 501 C 3 Church that calls itself an "organization". Many people I have tried to become friendly with inside the deliverance mindset are familiar or even supporting of this "TLR". I call it a cult because I used to be a Mormon and there is something eerily similar...
When someone first told me about The Last Reformation, I had never heard of it. I thought, "Reformation? The reformation seems like it could be something good..." It took only a few searches to see that this is a sensationalist "deliverance" church ripping off the "Reformation" name.
I am also very suspicious of deliverance that ends with the one receiving deliverance being pinned down on the ground, or very distressed, saying "Get off Me! Get off Me" to the deliverance "ministers". That doesn't seem very natural or biblical.
Jesus addressed the Demon(s) identifying as Legion. Jesus spoke to the possessive devils or familiar spirits but did not need to restrain that man physically to do so.
A Legion is a Roman "Number" meaning 3000-6000. This story is in Mark 5.

Deliver people from their sins

Deliverance ministry is not delivering people from their sins. I do not have authority to deliver anyone from their sins, that is Jesus' role and responsibility.

We all would rather you talk about those things in your introduction now rather than later because we want to know if you are truly born-again in Christ. But, from what I'm reading so far, it more so sounds like your "dedication" and "trust" is in the fact that you stopped doing a list of sins rather than repent (have godly sorrow of your sin) and put your faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for your sins.

I hear you. I really did not nuance much of my story. But please be reassured that I do repent. Dreams of the good life do not supersede repentance, I repent of what I do wrong. I do not go through this life self deceived.
Since we are doing feedback, I see you have wrote me a lengthy reply to my introduction.  I'll just say that my perception is that you critically scrutinized my introduction and asked me to give you a detailed account. I feel dispirited. My hope is that I can regain my excitement and hope I can share what I have to say without having to include a lengthy nuance in every interaction.

Re: Jeanne
Thank you for the hyperlinks Jeanne! It the afternoon here now, I work swing shift so it is still sort of "late morning". I am excited to really give these hyperlinks my attention. I love to read and I like to align myself with accuracy to God's will and direction he has given. I will be visiting each of these as my time permits. Thanks again!

Rowan:
I have been vigilantly asked if I have repented. I can give a resounding "Yes". I affirm I have repented, I do repent, and I will repent. I also repent for my possible unwitting mistakes and ignorances. I will continue to repent for things I have done unwittingly or ignorantly.

not seeing any evidence of being born again

I was converted from a Homo-Pagan lifestyle to Christianity because from my experiences, the Homo-Pagan lifestyle leads to destruction. My life had brought me to the dead end of destruction. God could not hold back the destruction from falling onto me. I was unrepentant, sinful, and wicked. My life was so destroyed, in an attempt to get the help I needed (my family would not help me) I turned to God. That day I picked a bible out of the homeless shelter library in the womans dormitory is when I turned to him, desperate for help.
I was converted from Mainstream Christianity to the "fringe" ... (i.e. Goodbye Tax-exempt churches, thinking critically and comparing church teachings to the actual word of the bible, etc) ... converted from mainstream to fringe when God continued to draw me to him- even after I had mainstream Christianity. I was not satisfied. I am a critical thinker. I innately knew there was a standard to IDENTIFY and DISTINGUISH key factors of the Church. (my intuitive skills are gifts from God)
  I was doing many searches, finding many warnings on false churches and teachers, apostasy, and taking the Word at face value. The word says what it means, and there is no "lost in translation" (i.e. homosexuality, womens roles, other common points of dissention)
It has really been a WALK from when I first started to now. But I have become very stringent on my biblical principles and biblical life ethos. I really do care about the "fine details", and that is why I have joined this forum. I did not nuance my story due to the time of day and my fatigue.

#drought

I included hashtag drought, because the State of Utah is currently experiencing the worst drought in 400 years, worse than the 1930s dustbowl drought. This is all according to the news, however Utah has struggled with drought before. This is a desert and there have been some strange weather patterns recently. And just as an additional note on that, my speculation is that the majority of grass laiden real estate is owned by the Mormons. A church house on every block, with the lushest, greenest lawns and foliage around..... In a desert.
I just added this because I felt like it.
Thanks for your reply!



Thank you everyone I hope you are having a nice day


mpeay7

[Jeanne]

You're right; the link Tim provided didn't work. However, I was able to track down that website:

greatbiblestudy.com/emotional-healing/guilt-and-shame-from-sexual-sins/

[creationliberty]

I hear you. I really did not nuance much of my story. But please be reassured that I do repent. Dreams of the good life do not supersede repentance, I repent of what I do wrong. I do not go through this life self deceived.

I have been vigilantly asked if I have repented. I can give a resounding "Yes". I affirm I have repented, I do repent, and I will repent. I also repent for my possible unwitting mistakes and ignorances. I will continue to repent for things I have done unwittingly or ignorantly.

I was converted from a Homo-Pagan lifestyle to Christianity because from my experiences, the Homo-Pagan lifestyle leads to destruction. My life had brought me to the dead end of destruction. God could not hold back the destruction from falling onto me. I was unrepentant, sinful, and wicked.

I want you to feel relieved that I do know how to distinguish the difference between deliverance and salvation, the casting out of devils and repenting of sins.

McKenna, I keep seeing a pattern in your speech, and I want to address that. I get the impression of your passion for what you believe, but I need to clear something up: Could you define the word 'repentance' for me?

Every time you spoke of the "evidence for your salvation," you went to sin that you have turned from, and that was very concerning to me in this context. I hate to break it to you, but going from being a lesbian to straight relationships is not a requirement for saving grace. I still think you are being vague, and I would very much appreciate your time if you would explain to me your understanding of repentance. I think that would clear up a lot for everyone. Thanks so much for taking the time to help me understand your position.

[mpeay7]

Re: Creation Liberty

Repentance is a change of mind, that leads to a change of heart, that leads to a change in actions. This change involves turning from sins and turning to God.

After I said my first prayer of asking God, to save me, a sinner....

I changed my mind on being a Lesbian. I changed my heart by ending the lesbian marriage I was in. I changed by giving the SPECIFIC reason (to my ex-companion) of a change of heart and mind, saying I was convicted of the things I had done. Things that would embarrass you if I told you. I turned away from the sin of homosexuality by disengaging in any inordinate relationship with women. I turned away from the PRIDE community. And I did not hide this turning away, some "friends" were very displeased.
My appetite for the word and truthful teachings from anointed teachers, not false ones, increased. A lot.
I looked back at my past self with a perspective I NEVER thought I would have. When I first came out to my family and friends, I was viciously persistent on gay "rights" and victim-minded. I shaved my head and dressed atrociously. I got tattoos, I shaved my head, I started doing drugs, and drinking, engaging in palm readings, tarot cards. I went to Yule, a pagan celebration and considered it "The best thing I had ever experienced". And in my previous mind I never accounted for changing my mind on ANY OF THIS. I believed I was justified and right. I believed witchcraft was the truth and freeing. I believed in feminist ideas and believed I would never change my mind.

This lifestyle brought me to a place where I was gathering my straw from the stubble, figuratively. I had reached a hell on earth, I knew I was a child of hell, I knew I was hell-bound and I reached for the last thing I ever thought I would reach for. The Bible. I opened it, and read it. That marks the beginning of my walk. Since then, I have been delivered from my afflictions, curses, and posessions. Deliverance from my affliction is only a permanent thing as I continue to honor God and his Word.

I hate sin, I hated the self-deception in my heart. I have an entire willingness to be saved in God's way, and I am very stringent in who I trust, who teaches me, who I listen to, and who I let into my home. I am stringent about what I say, what music I listen to, and where my things come from. I do not leave the door open for the devil to walk back into my life.

I have faith and know Jesus, knowing he died on the cross, was buried in the grave, and rose from our sins. I have faith and know that Jesus will not leave me high and dry. I have faith and know that the good in my life is directly from God's providence. I have faith and know that if I were to go back to a wicked lifestyle the end result will be the exact same as it was the first time.
Believing in Jesus and enjoying the blessings promised is a NO BRAINER compared to where I was before I accepted Jesus.

I have REAL love for people, and I consider a portion of that Real Love to be when I say the truth on a matter (i.e. 501 c 3) I think a big portion of this real love is a new-found HONESTY with others. A love for JUSTICE, which is the root of wisdom. A Love for Christ that is growing by the second, and a love for His blessings and gifts to me.

I seek to be HUMBLE and SANCTIFIED, asking in prayer and being crucified with Christ.

I have Godly fear. I am dissatisfied with the things of the world. In one word I would describe myself as "Disenchanted"
I have the spirit of Prayer. I do not get out of my bed in the morning without praying to God, asking repentance, asking for him to clear a path that no evil plan or trap befall me. I thank him for safely guarding me in peaceful comfortable rest. And I thank him before my meals. I pray A LOT and I'm only just getting started. I will be praying more, and more, and more.
I am separate from the world. And the world is angry and amazed at this! That I do not watch movies, or listen to mainstream music, that I will not allow this into my life or home.

I am CHASTENED for sin. I listen to my minister and I align myself, I can handle a rebuke and chastening. I do not make excuses for myself and do what I must to remain un-deceived.. From Myself!

I look and wait for the Coming of Jesus. I do not get on the Date Setting train but I do observe signs and wait for his coming.

I believe God's Word
I trust His Grace
I do His Will

Have a lovely day, I'm off to work soon



mpeay7

[Jeanne]

Thank you for that reply, McKenna. I would urge you again to please read/listen to those teachings I posted to you earlier, as you will see from them that the word 'repentance' means 'grief and Godly sorrow for wrongdoing', NOT a change of heart/mind. Repentance is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Your definition of repentance implies a works-based salvation, not one that is completely the gift of God.

Even a standard dictionary will define repentance as 'being sorry for what you have done' or something along those lines.

[creationliberty]

Repentance is a change of mind, that leads to a change of heart, that leads to a change in actions. This change involves turning from sins and turning to God.

Okay, so that actually clears up a lot for me, and why I'm getting a works-based false gospel from you. I know you will likely take great offense to that, but that is NOT what the Bible describes repentance to be. I wrote an article on that topic that can help with that:
Is Repentance Part of Salvation?

After I said my first prayer of asking God, to save me, a sinner....

That is precisely why I wrote this (short, free-to-read) book:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell
Essentially, you believe that you "changed your mind/turned from sin" to be saved, adding in a "sinner's prayer" as a cherry on top. That is NOT the gospel that Jesus Christ taught. Whatever you have come to believe, you have been lied to. There is whole lot more deception behind the false teaching of "turning from sin to be saved" than I think you would be willing to hear from me at this point, but just briefly, let me quote what Jesus said at the Sermon on the Mount:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-Matthew 7:21-23
Please notice that the people who called Jesus "Lord" (just as you do) all claimed that they did all these things in His name. And yet, He turns them away unto everlasting fire. The question is: Why?

I hope you will take some time to look into those teachings. You have no obligation to do so, but I want to make it clear that I do not yet accept you as a sister in Christ because you have not come to repentance for the remission of sins, and you don't understand what it means. There are millions and millions of people who claim to be Christ, who claim they have turned away from all sorts of sins, and in the end, they will end up in hell. I hope you will take the time to investigate this because it is vitally important.

I changed my mind on being a Lesbian. I changed my heart by ending the lesbian marriage I was in. I changed by giving the SPECIFIC reason (to my ex-companion) of a change of heart and mind, saying I was convicted of the things I had done. Things that would embarrass you if I told you. I turned away from the sin of homosexuality by disengaging in any inordinate relationship with women. I turned away from the PRIDE community. And I did not hide this turning away, some "friends" were very displeased.
My appetite for the word and truthful teachings from anointed teachers, not false ones, increased. A lot.
I looked back at my past self with a perspective I NEVER thought I would have. When I first came out to my family and friends, I was viciously persistent on gay "rights" and victim-minded. I shaved my head and dressed atrociously. I got tattoos, I shaved my head, I started doing drugs, and drinking, engaging in palm readings, tarot cards. I went to Yule, a pagan celebration and considered it "The best thing I had ever experienced". And in my previous mind I never accounted for changing my mind on ANY OF THIS. I believed I was justified and right. I believed witchcraft was the truth and freeing. I believed in feminist ideas and believed I would never change my mind.

I'm glad you turned away from all those things. However, that is NOT a requirement for saving grace, and as far as I can tell by your own words and testimony, you have rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Again, I hope you will look into those teachings to understand what Jesus actually taught.

This lifestyle brought me to a place where I was gathering my straw from the stubble, figuratively. I had reached a hell on earth, I knew I was a child of hell, I knew I was hell-bound and I reached for the last thing I ever thought I would reach for. The Bible. I opened it, and read it. That marks the beginning of my walk. Since then, I have been delivered from my afflictions, curses, and posessions. Deliverance from my affliction is only a permanent thing as I continue to honor God and his Word.

But you have not understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ yet. I'm just basing that on what you're telling me.

I hate sin, I hated the self-deception in my heart. I have an entire willingness to be saved in God's way, and I am very stringent in who I trust, who teaches me, who I listen to, and who I let into my home. I am stringent about what I say, what music I listen to, and where my things come from. I do not leave the door open for the devil to walk back into my life.

And I've heard Catholics say the same things. I've heard Jehovah's Witnesses say the same things. I've heard Seventh-day Adventists and Mormons say the same things. And yet, none of them are of Christ because they rejected the plain doctrine of salvation.

I have faith and know Jesus, knowing he died on the cross, was buried in the grave, and rose from our sins. I have faith and know that Jesus will not leave me high and dry. I have faith and know that the good in my life is directly from God's providence. I have faith and know that if I were to go back to a wicked lifestyle the end result will be the exact same as it was the first time.
Believing in Jesus and enjoying the blessings promised is a NO BRAINER compared to where I was before I accepted Jesus.

And yet, as I quoted earlier from Jesus's own words, He will turn away such people. I hope you will take time to learn why because it is a very serious matter.

I have REAL love for people, and I consider a portion of that Real Love to be when I say the truth on a matter (i.e. 501 c 3) I think a big portion of this real love is a new-found HONESTY with others. A love for JUSTICE, which is the root of wisdom. A Love for Christ that is growing by the second, and a love for His blessings and gifts to me.

I see so many statements you are making that you likely learned from worldly teachers that do not understand Scripture, and there are so many of them, I don't know where to begin. I don't think, at this time, you are going to hear me on the matter, but just to demonstrate one point, the Bible (which are the words of the Living God) does not say that "a love for justice" is the root of wisdom.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
-Pro 9:10

For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
-Isa 66:2

I seek to be HUMBLE and SANCTIFIED, asking in prayer and being crucified with Christ.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
-Rom 3:10-12

I have Godly fear. I am dissatisfied with the things of the world. In one word I would describe myself as "Disenchanted"
I have the spirit of Prayer. I do not get out of my bed in the morning without praying to God, asking repentance, asking for him to clear a path that no evil plan or trap befall me. I thank him for safely guarding me in peaceful comfortable rest. And I thank him before my meals. I pray A LOT and I'm only just getting started. I will be praying more, and more, and more.
I am separate from the world. And the world is angry and amazed at this! That I do not watch movies, or listen to mainstream music, that I will not allow this into my life or home.
I am CHASTENED for sin. I listen to my minister and I align myself, I can handle a rebuke and chastening. I do not make excuses for myself and do what I must to remain un-deceived.. From Myself!

I'm sorry to say, these words remind me an awful lot of the attitude of the Pharisee vs the publican; perhaps not in direct accusations, but in spirit, it's there, where one professes himself to be humbled and dedicated to God, while arrogantly listing off all his "good" deeds to supposedly "prove" himself:
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
-Luke 18:9-14
Again, if you look into the links I provided above, you will find a lot more details on that subject.

Have a lovely day, I'm off to work soon

I hope you have a peaceful day at work, but concerning your posts; I have not seen a testimony of salvation in Jesus Christ. I'm saying these things for your sake, that you might come to know who Jesus really is.

[mpeay7]

Re: Creation Liberty

I was convicted of the things I had done.

mpeay7

I gained faith in Jesus Christ through my hard journey. I identified my sins and felt Godly Sorrow. My Godly sorrow resulted in conviction. My conviction resulted in repentance. My repentance lead to turning away from my sin.

The saving faith of Jesus is exhibited in my works (Even obedience is a gift from God). I do not have an "at least I don't do *that* attitude. I don't believe my works will result in gained favor with God.
Oh by the way, I don't do "A sinners prayer" And my minister does not advise anyone to do a sinners prayer. My minister advises not to do the sinners prayer.

You don't need to prognosticate my "great offense", as you put it. I am very capable of doing feedback. It's an art! It is satisfying when it is done correctly.

I just feel like adding this. I hear you when you say I have rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I hear you when your validation of my statement is generalized among comments from Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses.
I hear you again, when you prognosticate that "I will not hear you on this matter"
Actually, my minister might have something to say about all this  "You will likely take great offense" "I don't think you're going to hear me"....

Truthfully I  don't have an appreciation for this. Nothing against you. This is a spirit of doubt that you have spoken over me. You have made it pretty clear that you doubted I would even make it to the end of your letter to me.

Unfortunately you see me as "listing off my good deeds" When I'm really just trying to make a place here for myself on the forum. This information has been requested from me, almost specifically. And if I am sharing with you that I make no place for most music and most entertainment of today.... And you see that as me "listing off my good deeds...." Here is an update:
I'm listing off the principles I have that God has blessed me with. I think we can all praise God for the wonders he has done in my life. And all of ours. I wasn't sharing to rub your faces in it. I was sharing because I was under the impression that we had a common denominator: How wonderful God's grace is in our life.

I love Luke. I love the book of Acts, too. Written by Luke. So while the pharisee did list off his deeds, he was never asked to account for them, or pray right then. I was asked to be less vague... Now I am being compared to a Pharisee.

Finally, I hear you when you say I do not have a testimony of my salvation In Jesus Christ. That is your perception. You're entitled to it, it's your right. And I will never say your perception is wrong. Because it's yours. I will never be able to see through your perception perfectly. The funny thing about perceptions is that singularly, they never match reality. Even a group of perceptions, together, can be mismatched from reality.

I hear you, I perceive sternness. I feel hopeful. My hope is for consistent successful feedback.
mpeay7
 

[Rowan M.]

I'd just like to address a couple of things in McKenna's latest post, and also clear up one thing with Timothy from earlier on.

First of all, this "speaking a spirit of doubt over me" thing is a very Charismatic sort of expression. Although I have never been directly involved in Pentecostalism myself (and certainly won't be doing so now!), it has still had some influence in my life. My mother is what I would term semi-Charismatic (meaning that she's not involved in a Charismatic church, and doesn't believe in it wholesale, but still holds to some clearly Charismatic beliefs and practices). She had several Pentecostal friends. Also, I used to listen a lot to Radio Rhema a number of years ago, and that station is full of Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers. I am therefore reasonably familiar with the lingo. So when I see a phrase like that, I can tell its origin. But that aside, I would like to know where in the Bible it talks of anybody "speaking a spirit" of anything over anyone else? What does that even mean, exactly? To me, it sounds more like something out of witchcraft. A lot of stuff that goes on in Charismatic churches is actually witchcraft with a few Biblical phrases tossed in to make it sound Christian. Or if it's not out-and-out witchcraft, it's certainly pagan. "Slaying in the Spirit", for instance, is just an imitation of certain practices that go on in Hinduism. It's the exact same thing, but the Charismatics put a few different labels on it to make it sound Christian.

By the way, the word "slay" in the Bible is never used in a positive sense. In nearly every case, it means to kill. One verse where it is used slightly more figuratively is Job 13:15, Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. But Job was not being "slain in the Spirit" there. He was being "slain" in the sense of going through an extremely difficult time. Having said that, "though he slay me" might also mean "Even if He kills me". I'm not absolutely certain of that. (How do others understand it?) The most important point of that verse though is that whatever God allows Job to go through, he will keep trusting Him. Everywhere else, "slay" means to kill, so why would God want something for His people that involved "slaying", even in a figurative sense? (Sorry, that last part was a bit of a digression, but I'm just citing that as an example of how pagan and un-Biblical a lot of Charismatic practices actually are, and "slaying in the Spirit" is one of their most core things.)

Going back to the "doubt" issue however, was Paul "speaking a spirit of doubt" over the Corinthians when he gave this instruction? Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5) Or did he "speak a spirit of doubt" over the Galatians when he wrote to them, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. (Galatians 4:20) He was concerned about the Galatians because some of them were going back under the Old Testament Law, which they were not supposed to be doing as born-again believers. If you are a false convert, then doubting your salvation is actually a GOOD thing, because it might eventually lead you towards real salvation. So someone causing you to question your salvation, or questioning your salvation themselves, is not "speaking a spirit of doubt" over you. Even atheists who want to make you doubt everything about the Bible for their own very bad reasons are not "speaking a spirit of doubt" as such.

The other thing I want to address is this comment:

That is your perception. You're entitled to it, it's your right. And I will never say your perception is wrong. Because it's yours. I will never be able to see through your perception perfectly. The funny thing about perceptions is that singularly, they never match reality. Even a group of perceptions, together, can be mismatched from reality.

I, ahem, perceive a contradiction here. On the one hand, "I will never say your perception is wrong. Because it's yours." On the other, "perceptions ... singularly ... never match reality" and "Even a group of perceptions, together, can be mismatched from reality". Which is, in so many words, saying that Christopher's perception is wrong. Because if a perception doesn't match reality, then it is not true and therefore wrong. I have colour vision deficiency, so sometimes I perceive the wrong colours in things. If I perceive something to be light green when it is in fact yellow, then my perception does not match reality. If I declare a thing to be one colour when it is really another, I may PERCEIVE it to be that colour, because my eyes literally see it that way, but my perception is still wrong. Hence my perception both fails to match reality and is wrong. I also have myopia (short-sightedness). Many years ago, before I got my glasses, I saw a distant clump of trees on a hill and thought they were a castle. My parents assured me they were trees, and when I squinted a bit, I realised they were right. My perception back then did not match reality, but at the same time, it was also wrong. Not matching reality and being wrong go hand in hand. They really amount to the same thing. Which is why you are contradicting yourself when you say that you'll never say Chris' perception is wrong, but then say perceptions (at least, single ones, but sometimes groups of them) don't match reality. However, perceptions can also be RIGHT. So it is incorrect to say that singular perceptions NEVER match reality. If I think I see a cat, and it is indeed a cat, then my singular perception has matched reality, and is also right. If it were true that singular perceptions never match reality, then what of your claim, "I perceive sternness"? By your own logic, that's automatically wrong.

Also, just quickly about the Pharisee thing, a major problem with the Pharisees was their pride. They believed a lot of right things (and some wrong things), but they were proud with it. They had not come to a place of true repentance, grieving over their sin and humbling themselves before God. There is some pride coming through in things you're saying, and some self-justification, and that is what has led to the Pharisee comparison.

OK, now to just clear something up with Timothy: I do believe absolutely that casting out devils is commanding them to come out. A couple of passages which make that very clear: And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out. (Luke 4:35-36) Also when Paul confronted the damsel with a spirit of divination: And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. (Acts 16:18) That young girl wasn't saved, and there is no indication she got saved afterwards (though I hope she did), but she had a devil cast out of her. There was no repentance from her divination beforehand. Had Paul not cast the devil out of her, she probably would have kept right on with what she was doing. In fact, any time you see an unclean spirit being cast out in the Bible, I don't think there is any prior repentance. What DOES happen though is that the specific behaviours caused by the devil(s) cease once it has/they have gone. So if you're not doing crazy stuff that some devil was making you do previously, you might be able to straighten your life out somewhat. But if you don't get saved in that time, then eventually the devil will be able to come back with friends and that's when you end up in a worse state than before. I hope I have that right. But anyway, I just wanted to clear up that I do understand what it means to cast out devils. Apologies for my wording there, which obviously could have been more clearly expressed.

[creationliberty]

Your response is even more concerning. First of all, you need to stop trying to speak with us in a sanctimonious tone. All that does is raise everyone's suspicions about you trying to act in a manner apart from how you normally do (i.e. as a call to impress) because I guarantee you don't talk this way to people in a normal, face-to-face conversation. Let's just be simple with one another. If you cannot manage that, then I don't have any interest in continuing conversation with you because I care about what you believe, not what kind of outward appearance you are trying get me to accept.

I gained faith in Jesus Christ through my hard journey. I identified my sins and felt Godly Sorrow. My Godly sorrow resulted in conviction. My conviction resulted in repentance. My repentance lead to turning away from my sin.
Okay, that confirms for me that you have accept a FALSE gospel. There was no correction in your statement, meaning that you did not come to understanding that you did not previously have, and that's because you tried a bit of verbal sleight-of-hand. You defined repentance as the following:
"Repentance is a change of mind, that leads to a change of heart, that leads to a change in actions. This change involves turning from sins and turning to God."
You said 'repentance' means "a change of mind," with the inclusion of "turning from sin." Now, you are trying to snow everyone to say that you had "godly sorrow" that RESULTED in repentance; not that repentance itself IS godly sorrow, but that godly sorrow came AFTER you changed your mind and turned from sin. Again, that is WORKS-BASED DOCTRINE. That is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I'm willing to go into the Scriptures on that. (i.e. You will notice how I provided Scripture for you, and you provided nothing but your opinion.)

I hear you again, when you prognosticate that "I will not hear you on this matter"
Here is what I said:
I don't think, at this time, you are going to hear me on the matter,

Actually, my minister might have something to say about all this  "You will likely take great offense" "I don't think you're going to hear me"....
In case other people don't understand the words she's using, she's saying that I'm predicting the future. McKenna, you need to knock this off now because you're starting to get to the point of false accusations, and I'm not going to put up with it. My having a thought, which is based on the evidence of your own writing, is not predicting the future. I simply have a believe that you will not hear me, and that does NOT mean that you will not read what I wrote, but rather, I mean in the sense that Jesus used it, meaning that you will read/hear, but not understand.

So far, I am correct. You are reading what I am writing, but you are not hearing.

Truthfully I  don't have an appreciation for this.
That's why I said: "I know you will likely take great offense to that" You are first trying to say that I was wrong for making those predictions, and now are admitting that I was correct.

You have made it pretty clear that you doubted I would even make it to the end of your letter to me.
When did I say that?

Unfortunately you see me as "listing off my good deeds" When I'm really just trying to make a place here for myself on the forum.
The way to do that is by giving a testimony of Jesus Christ that is according to His Word. You haven't done that yet.

This information has been requested from me, almost specifically. And if I am sharing with you that I make no place for most music and most entertainment of today.... And you see that as me "listing off my good deeds...." Here is an update:
No one asked you if you listen to music or watch TV. We asked you for your testimony of repentance and remission of sins, and so far, you haven't provided it. You are providing a works-based doctrine, and then trying to craftily cover it up.
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
-Luke 24:47
That's why we primarily focus on that matter.

I was sharing because I was under the impression that we had a common denominator: How wonderful God's grace is in our life.
God is graceful to all, but He only saves those with a contrite spirit.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18
In this thread, I see a woman who is trying to act like she's contrite, but it's an act. We have people here who have a contrite spirit, and their speech is a lot different from yours.

I love Luke. I love the book of Acts, too. Written by Luke. So while the pharisee did list off his deeds, he was never asked to account for them, or pray right then. I was asked to be less vague... Now I am being compared to a Pharisee.
Where were you asked to be less vague? Maybe I missed that. I asked just for your understanding of the doctrine of repentance, and you demonstrated that you did not understand it, and then tried to deceive everyone when you were called out on it. (i.e. Trying to change definitions and/or reword it in a more subtle way, hoping that no one would catch on to what you were doing.) That is exactly a Pharisaical attitude; that's exactly the way they acted when confronted by Jesus Christ. The more you talk, the more you're confirming that for me.

Finally, I hear you when you say I do not have a testimony of my salvation In Jesus Christ. That is your perception. You're entitled to it, it's your right. And I will never say your perception is wrong. Because it's yours.
Just you saying that is also confirming for me that you are not following Jesus Christ. You are following a false "jesus" that someone taught you, but it's not the Christian God of the Bible. If what I were saying and teaching is a lie (which, if what you are saying about repentance is true, then my teaching would have to be a lie), then it's not just "my perception," but rather, what I said would be wrong; it would be error. And you are now saying that you would not declare something that is wrong to be wrong, or in other words, you're not going to tell the truth; you are just going to try to get along and yoke together with something that is not true.

You may not see it yet, but we have a drastic disagreement about what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the FOUNDATION of all faith. You seem more determined to be in fellowship with a group, than to be in fellowship on the basis of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is also very concerning, and demonstrates that you do not care what the Bible actually teaches on this matter.

To call an "error" a "perception" is just flat-out deceptive. McKenna, I want to be straight-forward with you; you are not going to find like-minded brethren here. I don't know who it is you are following, or what you are learning, but it's not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so you should take your sanctimonious attitude somewhere else.

I will never be able to see through your perception perfectly. The funny thing about perceptions is that singularly, they never match reality. Even a group of perceptions, together, can be mismatched from reality.
We look to the Word of God for reality and perception. So I'm sorry you have wasted your time, but you will not find brethren here. If you ever want to learn the truth of God's Word and follow Jesus Christ instead of following your "minister," then by all means, come back and have a talk with us.

Until then, there is nothing more I can do to help because you don't want to hear (i.e. you don't want to understand). Have a great day.

[creationliberty]

First of all, this "speaking a spirit of doubt over me" thing is a very Charismatic sort of expression. Although I have never been directly involved in Pentecostalism myself (and certainly won't be doing so now!), it has still had some influence in my life. My mother is what I would term semi-Charismatic (meaning that she's not involved in a Charismatic church, and doesn't believe in it wholesale, but still holds to some clearly Charismatic beliefs and practices). She had several Pentecostal friends. Also, I used to listen a lot to Radio Rhema a number of years ago, and that station is full of Pentecostal/Charismatic preachers. I am therefore reasonably familiar with the lingo. So when I see a phrase like that, I can tell its origin. But that aside, I would like to know where in the Bible it talks of anybody "speaking a spirit" of anything over anyone else? What does that even mean, exactly? To me, it sounds more like something out of witchcraft. A lot of stuff that goes on in Charismatic churches is actually witchcraft with a few Biblical phrases tossed in to make it sound Christian. Or if it's not out-and-out witchcraft, it's certainly pagan. "Slaying in the Spirit", for instance, is just an imitation of certain practices that go on in Hinduism. It's the exact same thing, but the Charismatics put a few different labels on it to make it sound Christian.

Rowan, you made a really good point there, and I noticed that too. I saw the problems with her phrasing, but I didn't mention it to her because I did not want to distract from the doctrines of repentance and faith because that's what she needs to hear. However, I didn't know about it being Pentecostal/Charismatic specifically. I knew it matched the type of spiritism that is found in paganism, but you're right, she could be a part of the Charismatic cults, and we just don't have enough information to know.

For anyone else reading this who may not understand, I cover a bit about them in these teachings:
Speaking in Tongues vs Charismatic Gibberish
Revivalism: The Devil's Design

[mpeay7]

Re: All

It looks like feedback has come to a full stop, which is actually pretty disappointing. I don't doubt that you have good material on your website. I was in the process of trying to begin to read what was suggested, but you have made it clear you don't want to continue your communication with me.

I'm also not in any Charismatic Cults. I don't speak in gibberish and call it the gift of tongues.
I wonder what all this line of questioning was for?

You have continued to invalidate what I say and superimpose your perception. You've accused me of being crafty, instead of sharing your perception.

I still think you are being vague, and I would very much appreciate your time if you would explain to me your understanding of repentance.

creationliberty

I think there are some important communication skills that could really help you. I'm not trying to say you are a bad person, or you have bad things to say. I'm just saying that what you are saying isn't coming across effectively.
Mainly this is because you share your perception ineffectively.
 You have the perception that I am trying to " craftily cover up"
But you have only accused me of "craftily covering up. "
You have the perception that I am a woman trying to act contrite.
Then you have accused me of the "act"

There is a good book called "Leadership and Self Deception" and it teaches the principles that make feedback rewarding.
This feedback was not rewarding for me, and I was open to receive your feedback. The feedback I got from you was ineffective.

What I said about you prognosticating my "great offense" was true. If you were a great basketball player, and I joined you on the court while you stood on the 3 point line and said " you will likely not make that shot" would your ability diminish once I spoke that over you? What if I said "You will likely make the shot!" Would you be more likely to make the shot?
Does this analogy work?
Do we say "Swing batter batter!" Hoping the batter swings well?

Proverbs 18:21 - Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Proverbs 15:1 - A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Again, I'm sure you have a lot of great things to share and teach. I was excited to visit as many pages of your website as possible. I want to become very familiar with the Word so that when someone like you asks me another question about my faith, I can be more articulate. I suppose I will just go back to the books I have that should help, and buy a concordance...

It sort of seems like you very much believe that "Millions of Christians are going to Hell". I never disbelieved you, I am in process of reading the entire thing. These replies take a lot of my time, I work full time, and I am a student. I am busy and need to divide my time evenly through my responsibilities.
But my perception is that you are very passionate about your short book about Millions of Christians are going to hell. It almost seems like you wanted me to be one of the millions of Christians going to hell. It seems like your short book is your pride and joy, and anyone outside of the Norm of your group here online is probably part of the Millions of Christians going to hell.

There is an amazing observation Dr. Jordan Peterson has made on "high disgust sensitivity". This is what he calls a "primal" tool that mankind has used to protect their tribes or villages from strangers and their diseases.

It's my hope you read the book "Leadership and Self-Deception". I've been asked to read multiple links. I have started and have a ways to go until I finish. But since I have been linked plenty of reading material, I suggest this material to you. In reciprocation. I suggest this, because you may have been able to retain my online presence on your forum.... And others you wish to share with or teach.. If only you knew what effective communication is.  You got this!

Bye Everybody, it was neat to interact with you all.
mpeay7

[Timothy]

"There is a good book called "Leadership and Self Deception" and it teaches the principles that make feedback rewarding...I want to become very familiar with the Word so that when someone like you asks me another question about my faith, I can be more articulate. I suppose I will just go back to the books I have that should help, and buy a concordance..."

I know you're on your way out the door and you might not even read this, but I want to say that the book you're recommending is nowhere near as good as the Bible. We recommend God's Word to you for wisdom and understanding of those things rather than the book you recommend. Getting saved and trusting the Holy Spirit to teach you His word is what's going to help you because then you will have understanding of the Gospel. The reason you have to go back to books other than the Bible is because you don't understand the Gospel that is clearly in God's Word. That's what we want you to understand.

"It almost seems like you wanted me to be one of the millions of Christians going to hell."

First of all, nobody here teaches that "Christians go to Hell." The title of the book is "Why Millions of Believers on Jesus are Going to Hell." There is a difference and it is explained in the book. Trying to change the title like that was really an accusation from you that we believe and teach false doctrine. That comes from the pride and hatred you have of the truth we are trying to tell you because you have put your faith in a false works based gospel. We do hope you read it and that God will give you repentance and open your understanding so that you can read His Word and be taught by the Holy Spirit rather than the books and people you have learned false doctrines from. You don't have to trust what we're saying to you or even read that book or the articles if you don't want to, but if you just go to God's Word that He preserved in the King James Version, you'll have everything you need.

Second, if we wanted you to go to hell, we wouldn't have said anything to you and would have left you blind on the path of destruction you're taking. But because we don't want you to go to hell, we tried to tell you the truth of the Gospel that is found in the Bible. The problem is the wall of pride that we have all seen from your writing that's getting in the way of you understanding that. It doesn't make sense for us to preach to you the way to have eternal life in Jesus Christ if we wanted you to go to hell.

[mpeay7]

Re: Timothy

Please stop accusing me of Pride and Hatred, you do not know me.
I know that the book I recommended is nowhere near as good as the Bible. We all should know that by now, right?
But that book is extremely helpful in teaching what effective communication is.
If I was spoken to effectively, would I be "on my way out the door?"
I don't speak doubt over any of you. I don't say "I doubt you will read "Leadership and Self Deception""
I'm not saying any of you are bad people. I KNOW you are trying to say something to me. I am just telling you, in a non-insulting way, that what has been said to me is not effective. That isn't me saying you are wrong. That isn't me saying you are right. That is just me telling you what has been said has not been effective. I'm not expecting the red carpet, your book on a platter, and then to finish off with the Can Can.

I really wanted to understand what y'all were saying. But I was being accused of a lot of things. Also, doubt was spoken over me. That is one of the few things I brought to your attention, and instead of giving me the thoughtful humility y'all expected me to have, I'm pretty sure I was called a Charismatic Cultist.

It is your right to think I am a charismatic Cultist. That's y'alls perception. You can have it. It doesn't match reality. If there was an honest attempt to keep me coming back by accusing me of being a Charismatic Cultist, among all the other labels and accusations, it really isn't effective!

It's really pointless for me to continue to try and talk to you. This wasn't an "Introduce yourself" Page. This was a "Measure you" Page.

I do not have a Hatred of truth. This is the recurring theme I see among you all. You are accusers. You take what you see and you accuse. Again, this wasn't an "Introduce yourself" Situation, it was "We'll Scrutenize you!" Page, comparing me to the book "Millions".

I do not have a hatred of the Truth. I have been criticized for the way I speak, been accused of being disingenuous and performing an "Act". If I had a hatred for the truth, would I have left a lesbian marriage for the sole reason of aligning myself to God's Truth?

Were you wanting my testimony of Jesus? Of the Bible?
Jesus saved me, my life was dry like a desert and I had the deepest sorrow I had ever felt for what I had done. Since asking Jesus to save me, in an AUTHENTIC prayer from the HEART, not a script, for him to save me, my life has been utterly restored to something so beautiful, so lush, and so green "figuratively" and growing this way as fast as a waterfall. Because of Jesus. My gifts, my beauty, my intelligence are gifts from God. My obedience is a gift from God. Every breath I draw is a gift from God. The way I speak is a gift from God. I am helpless without Jesus. All the good I have in my life is directly from the providence of God. My stringent lifestyle is in place to prevent backsliding, and so I can be a proper place for the holy spirit to dwell. I know Jesus is the Messiah that was prophesied from the New Testament. I know Jesus is the Rock that Moses smote with his rod, Figuratively. I know Jesus, a sinless man, was the "Once and For All" Blood Sacrifice necessary for any of us to have hope to Live in the Kingdom of God. I know that the only way to life is through Jesus. The Ark God instructed Abraham to build had ONE door and that ONE door is Jesus. Figuratively. There are no alternate doors. Jesus is the PITCH God instructed Abraham to coat the Ark. Jesus is my propitiation, Jesus is my advocate. Jesus Can Justify me to God. IF I confess Jesus, Jesus will confess me to his father. I have not been baptized and I pray to be led to the water. I have a baptiser in the Northern end of my state and we are coordinating when this can be done. Praise Jesus, whose name is "Deliverer" Whose blood delivered me just as he delivered the man who was infested with a legion of devils. Just as he delivered Mary Magdelen of 7 devils. I give thanks to the Father for the message of deliverance, and I give him all praise Honor and Glory in Jesus Mighty Name.

[creationliberty]

I hope you depart in peace. Have a great day.

[mpeay7]

1Then Job answered and said,
2How long will ye vex my soul,
And break me in pieces with words?
Job 19

Get delivered, stop vexing others Christopher