Hello, my name is Vince

[Jeanne]

Hi Vince,

I apologise for not responding to you for so long. We were away on a camping trip for 5 days with no internet service and just got back last night.

Tim pointed you to Heather's testimony. I encourage you to read the whole thing because it was obvious to us from the very beginning that she was born again and we didn't have to continuously ask her for details. Ellie joined the forum right around the same time Heather did and her testimony was the same.

I reached the point where I began to weep in the knowledge of my guilt on the floor of my bedroom. I cried out to God and I felt so ashamed about all I had done; I specifically remember crying out to Him again and again that I was a child of the devil and that I was so sorry. I begged Him for forgiveness. I had fully realized at that point how evil it was in God's sight that I had done all of these things in pride while professing Christ. I don't know how long I was crying on the floor but I was devastated, heartbroken, and disgusted with myself. I am still disgusted by how deceived I was because of the pridefulness of my heart. However, I am so thankful that God opened my eyes after a very short amount of time being involved with that stuff because I know many people can get caught up in it for much longer or just never get out.

http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=1140.0

Read these two testimonies and then compare them to what you have said so far and see if you can spot the difference. We're not trying to be hard on you; we just want to make sure that you truly understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are born again. And it's not even like we won't talk to you if you're not really a Christian. But when someone claims to be of Christ and there is no evidence of that and avoids direct questions and changes the subject, then there's obviously a problem and we have learned by experience that those people don't tend to last very long here. That's why I cautioned you in my first post to not get too excited too quickly about having found like-minded believers without understanding exactly what our mind and beliefs actually are.

Edit: I had this page open for several hours before I actually typed up my reply, so I didn't see your last post until after I posted this. Nobody believes you're trying to 'fake it' and I don't think most people do that, either. It's usually that they don't truly understand what the Bible actually teaches and they respond in one of two ways; either they depart in anger and frustration because they aren't willing to admit that they might be wrong or they do admit their error and come to repentance. I pray that you are in the latter group because I'm not entirely convinced that you do understand what's being said to you.

[Timothy]

"Timothy, we may be missing each other here."

No. I'm addressing what you're saying. I acknowledge that you said MacArthur does not teach repentance, but I'm pointing out the fact that he teaches a false gospel of "accepting Jesus" that gives people the idea that if they "love Jesus" then they are born again. What part did you not understand?

If you are not defending him, then there isn't a reason to bring that up. A false gospel is a false gospel. You also wouldn't have said the following:

"I do think however his teaching is a bit more sound that simplifying it down to a Billy Graham type teaching and will probably take some care on how you approach the expose of him once you find the time to do it."

How is his gospel sound at all when it's completely wrong? Again, I'm addressing what you are saying. If anything is being missed, it's on your end.

"I agree that salvation is a specific point in time, which I neglected to point out in my initial testimony, and I'm sorry for that misstep."

Let's go back and address what you said before:

"I take a lot of comfort in the testimony of the disciples. They followed Jesus for much different reasons when He first called them than they did a short 3 or so years after. I don’t really recall when exactly each of them had a personal conversion experience, but more of a conversion process. I think Peter had to repent many times as well as the others during their walk with Christ. As for me I wake up many morning and the thoughts of wrong actions in the past and my short sightedness have grieved me were I reach out to God in prayer with sorrow and regret."

You are talking about this in the context of salvation in response to us asking how you were saved and you said it is a process. This isn't neglect or a misstep. This is what you believe, else you wouldn't have said it.

"I think I may put more emphasis on the sanctification process of my walk since that is a lot of Christians will spend most of their time in there walk, not all though."

But we were asking you how you got saved, not how you were sanctified from certain things. How do you get the gospel mixed up with a "sanctification process of your walk" unless you don't actually have understanding of the gospel? It's not like we were making things confusing for you because we asked you plainly how you were born again and this was your response.

"Yes, I did want to elaborate on it more, but it wasn't because I did not receive any response. I would have stated it the same even if I had received a response."

That wasn't an elaboration. That was a stark change in details. You switched from saying "I confessed I believed Jesus and committed to doing works for Him to be saved" to "I repented at 13 and had faith in Jesus's sacrifice." One is different from the other and it's not hard to see. If you understood the gospel, you wouldn't have done this. I don't know how to make that any more simple.

These "missteps" you keep having are not mistakes at all because whatsoever comes out of the mouth comes forth from the abundance of the heart. The fact that you are typing these things makes it worse because you put more thought in what you type than you do when actively speaking.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:45

[creationliberty]

Okay, now I may miss some things because there is so much conversation going back and forth, I'm not sure I can keep track of everything. I would normally not chime in, but I think the core issue is not being clearly addressed, so I'm going to attempt to do that.

Vince, what I keep seeing is like an adjustment to what we're saying, rather than a testimony of Jesus Christ. What I mean by that is whenever we point out something from your testimony that is missing from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you simply change your testimony to match that, as if you are simply adding things in that you believe we want to hear.

I have seen this pattern many times in people who have joined the forum, in which they attempt to just say the "right words" for us to accept them, rather than them testifying of what Jesus has done for them. It was not just in your first post, but all your subsequent posts as well. From the beginning, there was nothing at all about sin, the law, guilt of wrongdoing, or anything else that would indicate that you had to be saved from something. I am not expecting you to come out and write a bunch of comments about those things, but rather, those things should be part of the testimony and conversation you have been having with us, but that's not what I'm seeing.

I want to give you some examples to help clarify this. Now, I read the conversation you had with Tim over the issue of the words I pointed out to you, namely, "striving to be one of the few," which you have said that you "repent" of that or that you were sorry you made that error. I can understand an error; that's not my issue with that. The problem was twofold:

1. The expectation that "cheesy" (as you put it) church-iaty one-liners was going to endear us to you somehow. I'm not sure why you thought that.
2. That your words don't really mean a whole lot to you.

Of course, you might take offense to that last one, but the last one is very important because it will help to demonstrate that you are simply trying to say the "right words" to us for acceptance. Let's go back to the first post:

You said "Thanks for having me onboard"
This was very interesting because you confirmed our acceptance of you before we have even had a chance to read your post. It's a prideful approach that is based on assumption. That alone tells me that you have an expectation that, those who claim to believe on Jesus are automatically expected to welcome you in with open arms, and an arrogant expectation that your knowledge and understanding has reached a level through your experiences that a community such as this would have no qualms about adding you in. So from these very few words, I already saw that, from the beginning, you had expectations that you wanted fulfilled by coming here. This is where the problem started, but I did not say those things initially because I did not want to dive that deep into what you were saying unless it was necessary. (Now, it's necessary.)

You can see it again later, when you said: "You’re at a bit of a disadvantage since you don’t have 100+ hours of my Bible teaching that you can groom through to understand my thoughts."
We can understand your thoughts by the conversation you have with us. We can understand a lot about what you do and do not know based on what you write. I can tell when you are quoting Scripture because you understand it, versus you quoting me quoting Scripture in one of my articles. I know the difference.

If you were to talk to a professional mechanic, do you think he can gauge how much you know about mechanics by having a basic conversation with you? Of course. If you talk with a physician, do you think he can gauge how much you know about medicine by having a basic conversation with you? Of course. If you talk with people who study the Bible and understand the doctrines and philosophy of Christ on a regular basis, do you think they can gauge how much you know about the Word of God by having a basic conversation with you? Of course. We can understand pretty easily the difference between someone who studies God's Word and understands it, verses someone who listens to preachers and repeats what preachers say.

Furthermore, I can understand the thoughts of your heart by what you say, and that is what Jesus taught. (I will explain the Scripture on that in a moment.) The reason you made the excuse of us not having "100+ hours" of Bible teachings from you is because you think that by us spending many hours with you over a long period of time, and getting to know every detail of your life and experience, we will one day accept you as brethren. That is FAR overcomplicating this process.

If a young lady walked into a church building in a string bikini, it would not take long for someone to cover her up and rebuke her for her lack of proper dress. Now imagine a man says, "Hold on a second everyone! I don't think this is right. I think we should allow her to wear that bikini freely among us because, after all, we don't really know her personally yet." Well, obviously, when someone is doing or saying something wrong, you do not have to have 100+ hours of teaching or time with them to learn all their thoughts; you simply rebuke and correct the error.

I don't have to know the ins and outs of everything John MacArthur teaches because he's 501c3 incorporated, teaches error on repentance, and preaches false doctrines on tithe. That's more than enough. I don't need to know everything Alex Jones teaches to know he's corrupt because he will, on the one hand, condemn Catholic secret societies, but then turn around on the other hand and sell Catholic products. That's more than enough. And I don't need to have many nights of intimate conversation with you to know that there is something wrong with what you're telling us, and you are not going to be able to say a special recipe of magic words to fix the problem because such a thing takes UNDERSTANDING, not the right combination of the English language.

You made the comment about 100+ hours because you were really saying, "Look everyone, you don't know me well enough to judge these matters about me." Vince, I can tell by your conversation that you do not have much understanding of God's Word. How do I know that? Well, let's continue to look at the "striving to be one of the few" comment, and I'll try to explain what I think others are having a hard time getting across to you.
I admit my statement of “Striving to be one of the few” was a quick attempt at a final quip, but ultimately was a cheesy wrap up line like “In Christian love”, “In the grip of grace”, or “May grace and blessings be in your path” something I’ve learned well in all my church years. I really meant it in the same vein as Paul spoke of in 1Cor 9:24-27 and not a working for salvation, but my sanctification. Sorry about that.
The "sorry about that" line was not really the purpose of your statement; it was just another added "quip" at the end of that paragraph. You just felt that is what you were expected to say, and added it at the end. There really was not any "sorrow" to go along with that; that's obvious. In reality, you simply tried to justify what you were saying, and even attempted to fallaciously use Scripture to justify yourself. Now, I won't repeat the problem with the Scripture you provided because Tim already addressed you on that, but rather, I want to address you on the fact that your words don't mean much to you.

Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
-Ecc 5:2

We are not supposed to just say whatever we want whenever we want to say it, but rather, we should take consideration of what we say. Why is this so important? Because we will be held accountable for everything we say:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
-Mat 12:36

As I said earlier, I can tell what is in your heart by what you say, and Jesus said this:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18
So when something slips out of your mouth, or in this case, in your writing (which is much worse because you have more time to consider your words in writing than speaking), those things come forth from your heart. Therefore, we can understand what is in a man's heart by what he says, and knowing that, I do not need 100+ hours from you to figure that out.

What I see so far is a man who was raised in corrupt church buildings, he was told he was a Christian by false converts, and he has continued to repeat those same things that he learned from those people; maybe adjusting a few things along the way by what might be told by one false preacher here or there.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
-Col 2:8

You learned the corrupt traditions of men and rudiments (i.e. first principle teachings) of the world, and then repeated those, while trying to force this community of Christians to accept you because you do not want to think about what it would mean if we do not accept you as brethren. Then, you began to backpedal by saying "I appreciate the vetting," even though that was not your initial expectation, but you attempted to transition so quickly that I think some folks here did not catch it.

The problem with this is that you are not acknowledging the truth because you have gained understanding, but you are simply trying to relearn saying the wrong things (i.e. that you learned from the corrupt church buildings) to saying the "right" things (i.e. by copying what we are saying to you). Saying the "right things" is not going to solve the problem because we have more discernment than that, and it's not what we are looking for from you.

We are trying to get past the surface level to get to the core understanding, but it's like we are talking to a robot. Let me show you what I mean; Tim said:
Just like the prodigal son came to his father in the humility of repentance saying that he was not worthy to be a son, that is the same repentance that God looks for in anybody that comes to Him. The same for how David came to God in repentance in Psalm 51 that I quoted earlier. Then simply believe on Jesus Christ and that He died for your sin to free you from the punishment of hell.
Then you kinda' just repeated what he said and gave a generic response:
As I consider this I believe that I am born again as being described here. As I've read the story of the prodigal son, and also how David came to God in Psalm 51 I see this as my hearts attitude towards the Lord.

That is completely robotic, almost like a politician. It's as if you are not even talking with us, but just giving a public relations response that you think will be accepted by the public at large. I'm sure you are currently familiar with the fiasco that is New York governor Andrew Cuomo. Let's say he was told that a governor should stand for the Constitution of the United States and do work out of concern for the people, and he responded by saying, "I believe that describes me best. After reading the Constitution, I see this as my heart's attitude towards the people." We would all either laugh or puke at that robotic, PR response because we know it's not real; he's just putting on a show for the media.

The more I read your posts, the more I feel like I'm reading someone putting on a show. Now, that being said, you did make an attempt to give some sort of testimony of your conversion to Jesus Christ, so let's take a look at that:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=1304.msg10855#msg10855
Yes, right about the age of 13 I made my public confession of faith in what Jesus has done for me on the cross and committed my life to follow Him, and was baptized.
Even from the start, that's the problem. You said you don't believe in works-based doctrines, but when giving a testimony of Christ, you start out by saying (in a MacArthurian way), "Well, I publically confessed Christ, committed my life to Him, and got baptized." I don't know if you are aware of this, but that is ALL WORKS, which brings us back to your original comment, "striving to be one of the few."

Your conversation keeps pointing to the fact that, even though you may say you believe in "grace through faith," you still believe you are saved by works. That's why I do not believe that you understand the doctrine of repentance at all.

You go on to say:
From my previous post I mentioned that my Mom had left the church she had grown up in, and I'll also mention my dad grew up in as well as their parents, grandparents and ggparents, etc. and started attending a church up around Syracuse, IN when I was around 10.
Even though as I look back now there was considerable error in some of the doctrines in the church my mom started attending, they were also pretty right on in the error in celebrating the pagan holiday's we have today e.g. Easter, Halloween, Christmas, and probably the others. The bible teacher was educated and previously a professor at Grace Seminary in Warsaw, IN. I see him as a man that was very well studied in scripture, and knew how to use it to influence less knowledgeable laypeople in the church. That being said it still was the word of God being read and taught, which is what I ultimately heard and was drawn to.
It's not wrong to share information like that, but still, that's not what we're looking for. Whether some leavened church building celebrated pagan rituals or not is irrelevant to what's being asked of you.

At 13 I was aware of what sin was, and it's hold on my life.
So do criminals. We've had men in our church who visited prisons to talk with the men there, and they will tell you that they are sinners. What's the difference between you and them?

I also knew that I was ultimately powerless in getting it out of my life, and was sorry that it was in my life and really had no desire to justify it or have it in my life.
That's what I mean. There is no sorrow for what you have done, but rather you are "sorry that sin is in your life," which is distancing yourself from guilt. You speak of it as it is a thing that just happened to be attached to you, and that since you can't do anything about it, it's not really your fault.

I knew that God was the source of life and that he had created this world as good, and we had fallen from that, and our sins were against Him and the laws he has established in his word.
Yeah, this is the same standard lines repeated from the pulpits of church buildings. Knowing that God is the "source of life" does not save anyone.

I know that if I wanted to be in a right relationship with him I needed to embrace what his son had done on the cross in taking on my sins, which I hated and was sorry for. Like Chris's analogy of the man pushing me out of the way of a bus and being hit himself instead of me.
No, you didn't even understand my analogy. In the analogy, you are saying that the proper reaction to the man getting hit by the vehicle to save your life, as his blood and guts are strewn out across the road, is to say, "Hmm. Ya know, I think I need to have a proper relationship with him." Please tell me you're joking; certainly you cannot be that cold, can you?

So, all that I've mentioned before is really a testimony of the sanctification process God has been taking me through,
So here, you have admitted that you have no testimony of your conversion to Jesus Christ, which is exactly what I was pointing out to you in my previous post. You were not testifying of it before (because you just said that everything aforementioned was not your testimony), but that this was supposed to be your testimony, and I can tell you with certainty from Scripture that it is not what the Bible teaches about those who are saved by grace.

You just repeated exactly what the people in the church buildings told you that you had to say in order to be accepted when you were thirteen. And now, still today, you are repeating exactly whatever we tell you that you have to say in order to be accepted. That's not why we are here; we are here to preach repentance (i.e. grief and godly sorrow) and remission (i.e. forgiveness) of sins.

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
-Luke 24:47

Doing a bunch of traditions or rituals or baptisms does not save anyone. The Bible clearly teaches that the heart that the heart must be humbled and crying out to God in the same manner that child comes in tears to his father when he has done wrong.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
-Jms 4:6-10

I cannot teach that, meaning that I cannot bring anyone to repentance. None of us can do it. Only Holy Spirit can do that. If that is something you cannot recall experiencing, then the only thing you can do is pray that God would bring you to repentance so you can be born again.

There is not much else I can say to help you understand. I have provided everything I know how to provide in terms of information; outside of that, none of us have any power to help you any further. From what I can see, if you are telling me that you have been born again in Jesus Christ (and possibly a veteran Christian longer than I have been saved), I simply do not believe you because your conversation does not reflect it.

[Vince]

Ok, I have plenty to consider. I admit I didn't know exactly what to expect when I joined this forum, I was excited and hopeful that it would challenge me in a way I had not been before, and I believe it has. What I thought might be likeminded was different, but good. I think if you would have just let me participate with warm pats on the back I would have found myself disillusioned like I have at all the other churches I've attended.

I have noticed the difference between this body of believers and the many churches I have attended. In those churches if you say things in a particular way while smiling sincerely you are always accepted as a believer, and never challenged as you are here in this forum. I must say it has been confusing to me, and a few times I wondered if it just the way new people were treated to see if they were sincere. Well I know I'm sincere, but I'm not sure I have things correct. I just don't understand how I could be a professing believer in Christ for almost 40 years and not understand this? The other question is why would I even care? Is it just because I believe it's a good way to conduct my life?

I have found myself frustrated when my typical "Christian" conduct and performance was not accepted, and even challenged. After reading Heather and Ellie's testimony I can see that I don't get it. In particular I relate with Heathers testimony as I have been in grief many times in tears, but somehow it wasn't real, it was grief, but it didn't bring any deep sorrow to repentance?

I'm going to hold my tongue for awhile and consider these things in prayer, as well as depend more on just studying the scriptures and letting the Holy Spirit teach me. I do desire true repentance.

Lord willing, I plan on hanging around and continuing to read through the forum occasionally. I think I'll revisit the teaching on repentance as well, for some reason I don't believe the truth of scripture has penetrated my heart. I am beyond concerned to say the least.

Thanks again for loving enough to explain these things to me. It is a good testimony that you guys would take so much of your time to write your thoughts out like you have.

[Vince]

As I was comparing the parable of the sower in Matt 13 and Luke 8 I noticed Luke added a bit more description of what good ground is. What to you think it means in Luke 8:15 when it say's "which is an honest and good heart"?

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke seems to be making a comparison that an honest and good heart is what good ground is.

[creationliberty]

If you want to know what it means, look at the correlating verses:

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
-Mat 13:23

And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
-Mark 4:20

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
-Luke 8:15

You will have to be more specific in your question if you want a more specific answer. (i.e. Just ask the question you want to ask.)

[Vince]

What is Luke adding to the context when he puts this descriptive phrase in the verse? It's different in how it's stated in the other two.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
-Luke 8:15

[Timothy]

Just that those who have heard the word and understand it bring forth fruit with an honest and good heart. It’s the working of the Holy Spirit in a Christian to produce fruit with sincerity.

[Vince]

Thank you, that makes sense. I was a being thrown by the honest and good heart, since my understanding of all our hearts as being "...deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer 17:9 I think the way you are putting it makes sense that the good soil has been conditioned by the Spirit so that it can receive the word properly. Does that seem correct?

...which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word,...Luke 8:15 I see when it says having heard the word as being the precursor to the honest and good heart. Can we say that the good soil is soil that has been made that way because of repentance, or am I reading into that too much?

[Vince]

I've been considering this...

Remember what I said about the Jews not wanting to think about their sin earlier? It is strange to me that, instead of embracing the sorrow that you have over sin, you have to "replace the feeling with thankfulness" to make you feel better. Ellie and I were both concerned about this when we read it together earlier. I know that born again Christians are thankful for what Christ has done to save them, but they don't run away from the repentance they have. They embrace it and direct that repentance towards God in humility knowing that their sin, no matter what it is, is a direct offense towards God. Look at how David prayed to God after having committing grevious sins in Psalm 51.

I have not really ever been taught to embrace my sin. What I remember is hearing believe in Jesus and your sins will be washed away, which I always took as they have been forgotten by God and so I should also forget them. So when they would come to mind I felt like it was useless to dwell on them.

It's not that I really didn't want to recognize them and embrace them. I just thought that was something not worth dwelling on. I understood it to have been dealt with and done with.

When I said earlier...

I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I meant that as a scriptural backing for what I was doing. "forgetting those things which are behind" I didn't mean to imply that I was trying to replace my grief of sin with something, but thought I was doing what scripture was teaching by forgetting it, but it wasn't that I am trying to avoid embracing it. Does that make sense?

I just wanted to be clear that I know that I'm a sinner and I as I read through the story of Zacchaeus it confirms to me that I have salvation, as I to at the age of 13, and even earlier wanted to see Jesus. I to wanted to make things right to those I had wronged and because of Zacchaeus's humbled attitude Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. Luke 19:9-10

I do have grief and sorrow of my wrong towards God, and it's not that I don't want to own it and am not extremely thankful that Christ made a provision for me to be saved it's just that I don't have a rock your world testimony other than something similar to Zacchaeus. My money, position, popularity, or even what you folks may think of me means anything, because I know I will forsake it all for Christ. I also know that's it's not by my strength that I have that resolve, but by the Spirit of God.

So I'll continue to do as Paul says in Phil. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

I do appreciate you helping work through this, as I have a lot to learn as well as unlearn

[Jeanne]

I've been considering this...

Remember what I said about the Jews not wanting to think about their sin earlier? It is strange to me that, instead of embracing the sorrow that you have over sin, you have to "replace the feeling with thankfulness" to make you feel better. Ellie and I were both concerned about this when we read it together earlier. I know that born again Christians are thankful for what Christ has done to save them, but they don't run away from the repentance they have. They embrace it and direct that repentance towards God in humility knowing that their sin, no matter what it is, is a direct offense towards God. Look at how David prayed to God after having committing grevious sins in Psalm 51.

I have not really ever been taught to embrace my sin. What I remember is hearing believe in Jesus and your sins will be washed away, which I always took as they have been forgotten by God and so I should also forget them. So when they would come to mind I felt like it was useless to dwell on them.

It's not that I really didn't want to recognize them and embrace them. I just thought that was something not worth dwelling on. I understood it to have been dealt with and done with.

Hang on, Tim never said you should embrace your sin, but the sorrow you have over your sin! God called David a man after His own heart because David was in a continual state of repentance, asking God to have mercy on him for the wrong he had done.

[Ellie]

When I said earlier...

I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I meant that as a scriptural backing for what I was doing. "forgetting those things which are behind" I didn't mean to imply that I was trying to replace my grief of sin with something, but thought I was doing what scripture was teaching by forgetting it, but it wasn't that I am trying to avoid embracing it. Does that make sense?

Vince, you are right that you didn't imply that you wanted to replace your grief of sin with something, you flat out admitted that is what you do. By your own words, that is what you said.

And to answer your question, I have to say that it does not make sense because you basically just said that you avoided embracing it. You said this:

I have not really ever been taught to embrace my sin. What I remember is hearing believe in Jesus and your sins will be washed away, which I always took as they have been forgotten by God and so I should also forget them. So when they would come to mind I felt like it was useless to dwell on them.

It's not that I really didn't want to recognize them and embrace them. I just thought that was something not worth dwelling on. I understood it to have been dealt with and done with.

So these church buildings taught you to believe in Jesus and then forget your sin. If you purposefully chose to forget something, then you avoided embracing it.

However, as Jeanne said, Tim didn't say to embrace your sin. He said to embrace the sorrow over your sin. But the point remains that when you were confronted with your sin, you decided to forget about it in order to conform to the false gospel preached at the church you're talking about.

I just wanted to be clear that I know that I'm a sinner and I as I read through the story of Zacchaeus it confirms to me that I have salvation, as I to at the age of 13, and even earlier wanted to see Jesus. I to wanted to make things right to those I had wronged and because of Zacchaeus's humbled attitude Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. Luke 19:9-10

The first reason you give here to explain why you believe you're saved is because you want to "see Jesus." Yes, those who are truly born again desire to meet their savior, but that is no indication of your salvation. I don't think I have ever heard of a false convert who doesn't "want to see Jesus." I remember wanting to "see Jesus" too before I was saved. You trusting in your desire to "see Jesus" as a child is trusting in your heart. And trusting in your desire to make things right is trusting in your good works.

After reading Heather and Ellie's testimony I can see that I don't get it. In particular I relate with Heathers testimony as I have been in grief many times in tears, but somehow it wasn't real, it was grief, but it didn't bring any deep sorrow to repentance?

You previously were able to admit that you can tell, by reading born again Christians' testimonies, that you don't get it. You admitted that you had always had worldly sorrow, but you never sorrowed unto repentance. By your own admission, you have already told us clearly that you never came to repentance, and therefore, are not saved. If you had godly sorrow, you would certainly know it after learning what repentance actually means. But you continue to search the scriptures for some justification to prove that you are saved somehow without this being a part of your testimony. That is not how it works. I am warning you that you don't want to stand before God saying that you should get to heaven because you "wanted to see Jesus," wanted to "right your wrongs" (i.e. do good works), and insist that you have a "humble attitude." That's not going to fly with the Lord Almighty. You can't get in any other way than repentance and faith in Jesus Christ (and no, you can't skip repentance).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. - John 10:1

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. - Luke 13:3

I do have grief and sorrow of my wrong towards God, and it's not that I don't want to own it and am not extremely thankful that Christ made a provision for me to be saved it's just that I don't have a rock your world testimony other than something similar to Zacchaeus. My money, position, popularity, or even what you folks may think of me means anything, because I know I will forsake it all for Christ. I also know that's it's not by my strength that I have that resolve, but by the Spirit of God.

You said you didn't have repentance, and then now suddenly you say you do have it. This doesn't make sense. I talked to Tim about this in the morning, and we agreed that we aren't asking for a "rock your world" testimony. We asked for a testimony of repentance and faith in Christ. You can't just start parroting the biblical phrases and expect us to believe what you're saying when you have consistently contradicted yourself and tried to change your testimony since coming here after we pointed out that there is something wrong.

My money, position, popularity, or even what you folks may think of me means anything, because I know I will forsake it all for Christ.

I want you to know that we are not giving you our opinions of you, we are trying to show you where you are contradicting yourself, and showing you with scripture that you are not born again based on your own testimony--your own words to us. We are doing what we ought to as indicated by the scriptures.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

If you were born again, you best believe that God wouldn't have you "forsake" his Church and biblical correction from us. I don't know where you would get that idea from. We would be glad to welcome you with open arms if you had a clear testimony of repentance and faith. And we have been willing to talk to you and answer any questions you have because we want you to understand. God has been patient with us, and we have tried to be so with you. But it seems like you are not interested in hearing anymore because you are now holding onto your new reasons why you believe you are saved, and you are willing to "forsake" what we biblically have to say to you "for Christ." You can't forsake the gospel of repentance and faith "for Christ."

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. -Luke 6:46-49

You reject Christ's command to repent, and you build your foundation on things that are not of Him. That is a dangerous place to be in, and I will warn you of that once again.

I wanted to respond to you again at the chance that God might show you your folly, even though you seem to be at the point of rejecting anything we say in opposition to your belief in your salvation. That is why I wanted you to answer the question that Chris posed you much earlier. If you are now unwilling to consider anymore that you are not saved, then there is no point in talking much more because we don't see the evidence--all of the evidence you have shown us points to the contrary. I hope you will hear the things I am trying to say to you, but honestly there is not much else that can be said. We can't force your eyes open to the truth if you have shut them.

[Vince]

Hi Jeanne,

Hang on, Tim never said you should embrace your sin, but the sorrow you have over your sin! God called David a man after His own heart because David was in a continual state of repentance, asking God to have mercy on him for the wrong he had done.

Yes, I apologize. Thank you for pointing that out. I understand I should have said it as embracing my sorrow over my sin.

I'm not sure though that I would agree that David was in a continual state of repentance. That would mean when he slept with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered he was doing that in a state of repentance. I don't think that would be possible. No doubt repentance followed, but only after he was caught.

Interesting subject would be when is it recorded that David was actually saved? When did he become a man after Gods own heart? It was before any number of his sins were recorded.

Please don't see my comments as being argumentative. These are genuine considerations of mine.

I really do appreciate the discussion on this board, thank you

[Vince]

Hi Elissa,

Vince, you are right that you didn't imply that you wanted to replace your grief of sin with something, you flat out admitted that is what you do. By your own words, that is what you said.
And to answer your question, I have to say that it does not make sense because you basically just said that you avoided embracing it

Yes I did say I replace those feeling with thankfulness, but I can see now that was in error. I feel that this forum and Chris’s teaching has brought that to light, so now as thoughts of any past sins come to mind, I do embrace the sorrow. I’m still thankful for what Christ has accomplished for me on the Cross. What I’m doing is working through a lot of Church teaching, and I have to patiently look at each doctrine and undue what some of what I’ve come to understand.

When you say it “does not make sense”, I would agree. As I study the scripture on what I’m hearing on this forum vs some of the teaching I’ve heard in the past I will be coming to certain truths that may appear that I’m changing my story, but in fact I’m looking at things differently on certain doctrines. When you say “I avoided embracing it”, meaning my Godly sorrow of sin, it wasn’t because I didn’t want to acknowledge it, or didn’t understand it was an offense to God it was because my understanding was that you need to move past it ,and leave it behind. I don’t see that as the case anymore. I can agree that the heart of repentance is what keeps us in a humble state before God, and is something I need to be thankful for.

I do repent for the error in understanding that I came onto this forum on certain doctrines, and am thankful for the admonishment.

You trusting in your desire to "see Jesus" as a child is trusting in your heart. And trusting in your desire to make things right is trusting in your good works.

There's no desire to see Jesus unless there is something that attracts you to him. Now I do see people being attracted to Jesus for many reasons, like financial blessing, healing from health issues, being a part of a particular elite group, etc. I would question the "Jesus" they are trying to see? The Jesus I seek to see is the King of the Universe and Lord of all whether some recognize that or not. He live and died on a wooden cross 2000 years ago for my sins. Even though I might have not had a full understanding of what all that implies at age 13, I believe I was saved. I didn't have the understanding I do now even 2 weeks ago, and will probably not have the same understanding in another 2 weeks.

Even though I am repentant and have a Godly sorrow, doesn't mean that He will not bring me into fuller understanding of my sinfulness in the future, and in fact it's what I have prayed to him for.

I admit my initial correspondence with this church knocked be back on my heals a bit, and it made me take a deep look inside, which I'm thankful for, and I discovered that I am ignorant on many issues, but I'm not willfully ignorant. I can say with the up most confidence that my desire is to me more more like Christ and I desire to learn his ways.

If you want to doubt my salvation, that's your right, but just as you may not have seen enough evidence that I'm am, I have not seen enough evidence that I'm not. The Lord knows my heart, and it's not a confusing issue for Him.

You previously were able to admit that you can tell, by reading born again Christians' testimonies, that you don't get it. You admitted that you had always had worldly sorrow, but you never sorrowed unto repentance. By your own admission, you have already told us clearly that you never came to repentance, and therefore, are not saved.

True, the previous post's rattled my confidence, which I again repent. I have not been questioned in the way I have on this forum before. I know I have had several repentant moments and it wasn't because I got caught, or even because I was experiencing bad circumstances. It was because I knew God hated my sin, as do I. I can't point to a specific time, or date when I was on my face before the Lord in sorrow for what I was, but I know I have been in the past, and certainly will be again in the future.

When I read the testimonies of repentance I felt that since I couldn't remember the specific date an time when I've felt that grief and Godly sorrow I felt that maybe my experience was not adequate, even though that's my heart. It's not wrong to experience that emotional release for several hours when we come to realize our sinfulness before a Holy God, it's just that you may experience it at different times, or you may experience it similar to Zacchaeus and desire to make your wrongs right, not as works to salvation, but a result of salvation.

If you were born again, you best believe that God wouldn't have you "forsake" his Church and biblical correction from us. I don't know where you would get that idea from.

That is not what I meant. If you think I would forsake fellowship with the Church then you would have cause for concern. What I mean is that I'm not seeking the approval of man. If you guys don't want to believe I'm saved, then that's fine. All I can say as I look at my heart, and who I want to spend eternity with it's God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. He is my Judge and Savior.

You quote this scripture...
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

Honestly it is the scripture that came to my mind this weekend that this church may lack in a bit. There is no doubt the a forum allows us to think how we say things, but without the facial expressions and body language you're only getting a small fraction of total communication. It's not how church was typically practiced in the first century or centuries after, only in the recent years has this been possible, and I think it adds a challenge. We are much more bold in our speech when on the other side of a computer screen. I don't think I would have been rattled as much if I was face to face, nor do I think I would have been met with such opposition.

I have not always felt the patience and gentleness in each response, and I admit it's hard to communicate that through writing.

Just some things to consider as you communicate with other visitors to this site.

[Timothy]

You’re not really addressing the key points in any of our responses but I do want to point out your error in Philippians 3.

I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

”I meant that as a scriptural backing for what I was doing. "forgetting those things which are behind" I didn't mean to imply that I was trying to replace my grief of sin with something, but thought I was doing what scripture was teaching by forgetting it,”

Ellie has already addressed you on most of this, but I want to point out the error of using that verse because you took it out of context.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
- Philippians 3:1-3

Having no confidence in the flesh is important because Paul is going to explain what he means by this.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
- Philippians 3:4-7

Paul is not saying that he does have confidence in the flesh, but rather that if anyone had a good reason to, it would be him because of his works of keeping the law while he was a Pharisee. Yet he counted his good works loss for Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
- Philippians 3:8-11

Rather than relying on his past works of the law, Paul forsook all of that knowing that he cannot put his faith in his works to be saved. He forsook it all so that he can “attain unto the resurrection of the dead.”

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
- Philippians 3:12-14

The context of what Paul is saying is that he has put away his reliance on good works. So when he says “forgetting those things which are behind,” he is referring back to those works. It’s got nothing to do about forgetting sin which is what you are claiming it means.

”If you want to doubt my salvation, that's your right, but just as you may not have seen enough evidence that I'm am, I have not seen enough evidence that I'm not. The Lord knows my heart, and it's not a confusing issue for Him.

The fact that you mostly haven’t addressed the key points made (which is the evidence we are giving you that you are not of Christ) and that you are saying this tells me that you are not going to listen to what we are saying. Reasoning with you about this has been fruitless so I don’t see a point in continuing.

”The Lord knows my heart, and it's not a confusing issue for Him.”

”If you guys don't want to believe I'm saved, then that's fine. All I can say as I look at my heart, and who I want to spend eternity with it's God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. He is my Judge and Savior.”

Well, if you want to trust your own heart on this matter, we can’t stop you. We just don’t recommend it because the Bible says:

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
- Proverbs 28:26

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
-Jeremiah 17:9

You quote this scripture...
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

”Honestly it is the scripture that came to my mind this weekend that this church may lack in a bit...
We are much more bold in our speech when on the other side of a computer screen. I don't think I would have been rattled as much if I was face to face, nor do I think I would have been met with such opposition.

I have not always felt the patience and gentleness in each response, and I admit it's hard to communicate that through writing.

Just some things to consider as you communicate with other visitors to this site.”

So you consider us telling you the truth as opposition? That makes a lot of sense. But Vince, I didn’t see any of us being impatient with you. We simply were telling you the truth that you might be saved. If you don’t like that, then why are you here?

I’m not going to allow you to make unfounded accusations to the church like that. If you’re going to be offended by us pointing out the error and giving you the truth, then it’s best you depart in peace. We can't have the fellowship you wanted if we cannot be like-minded, nor can we have it if you have not shown us the evidence of your salvation.