Hello to Everyone

[BPJohn]

Good Day to you all.

My name is John and I live in California.

I was raised in the Lutheran denomination by my parents who have maintained biblical practices and tried to keep me and my siblings in the faith. While living in Japan we would attend Awana and that is where at the age of 11 I asked Jesus into my heart. However over time I did not feel any changes in regards to my spiritual walk, and during middle school and high school I know what I was not walking in a "Christian" type walk. When we returned to the US after I graduated high school, we started going back to the church we had gone to before we left Japan.

Upon our return to the US I also started college. During that time I felt empty in my walk with Christ, even when I attended church. I was not until five years ago when I was at a 3 day movement that I awoke in tears to know that I can be forgiven. In what I thought was a calling, I went back to Japan to find the answer to something I felt I was searching for. After a series of disappointments with not being able to hold a job over there, and having gone through difficult times with the last job I had, I felt that I was being called into ministry.

I came back in 2017 with the intent of going to a seminary and becoming a pastor. At the time I was looking for which seminaries to go, and joined a large Lutheran denomination so as to be eligible to attend this seminary. One of the things that has constantly bothered me though is how the contemporary services love to incorporate CCM into their singing, especially with songs from Hillsong and Bethel, which I have found to be completely heretical after watching many a series of videos on the subject. Most disturbing is how these churches practice demonic rituals during their services.

I have gotten to the point where I am practically ready to go to the seminary, until I found Servus Christi aka Joshua Chavez who had made some videos on the topic of the gospel that completely shattered up until this point everything that I have believed. Because of that, I have had to look at more videos concerning these topics, and that is where I have come across the videos from Creation Liberty also. This and other websites such as Truth According to Scripture have made me realize a number of things and really had to question whether these practices are biblical or only by the traditions of men:

1. The church system and how it is different from the early church
2. How even though the Lutheran church broke from Catholicism, it is still practicing many of the same rituals due to tradition
3. How one pastor should not be in charge of the church
4. Lack of biblical evidence to support paid clergy
5. Tithes
6. 501c3
7. Marriage and how it should be handled, I am single so I am really having to grasp the situation of this and how the practices of today have their pagan origins
8. The true repentance that Jesus was speaking of in his ministry

I have come to realize the foundations that have comprised my faith may have indeed been built on falsehoods, and ironically this Corona Virus having kept me at home has provided the opportunities to find this out. I am now at a crossroads of having to decide whether seminary is the correct way to go or not, because if there is not basis for it, then I am spending a lot of money but also living a herecy.

I now also realize that my confessions and my repentance earlier days have been true as is stated in scripture, for example one of the scriptures that Chris cites of Jesus saying in Matthew 5:31-32, "And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

I am also reading the article on repentance by Mr. Chris, and I am convicted on this matter and realizing my need for repentance, because I know that my previous times of repenting have meant nothing. I have also sent my mother many of the materials that I have come across, knowing that she is devout in her faith, although it did not take long for her to find and send me two articles that provided glaring criticism of Servus Christi without any biblical refutation.

I am also questioning whether going to seminary is a good idea at all, because there are people suggesting that Paul himself had been a pharisee.

Please pray for me as I am coming to this realization of needing to come to the repentance that is in Christ, to bear the fruit that he has spoken of.

John

[TheChickenWhisperer]

Hi John and welcome.

I have to admit, as I first began reading your testimony, I though you were still being lead astray.  Praise God you are questioning what you have been taught! You will find similar stories here.  Keep reading your KJV and you will be able to find the answers you are looking for.  The Lord gave you humility to repentance, and that is most important.

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/denominations.php

I am sure Chris can explain that you don't need to go to seminary to teach the gospel of repentance to others. 

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

You need only to study the Word of God and teach others the truth.

[creationliberty]

I don't know what to say other than I'm glad God gave you understanding to look at such things. In the context of seminaries, I suppose I could only return a question: What school did Peter attend? What qualifications did Peter have to teach?

Of course, the argument could be made (especially by those who defend the seminaries) that Peter's school was listening to and learning from Jesus. I agree. So why can we not do the same without having to go to a special college?

I have heard others retort that if you do not go to seminary, then you are far more likely to end up teaching false doctrines. In my years of personal experience, and more years of researching others, I have found FAR more corruption and false doctrine from those who HAVE been to seminaries, than from those who have not.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not saying that God would not give a teaching calling to someone who has been through such seminaries, but according to Scripture, it is a rare occurrence:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
-1Co 1:26-29

It is not the strong, so-called "wise," polished, seemingly theological intellectuals of this world that God calls into positions of leadership and teaching in the church, but rather, and much more often, God takes the lowly, useless, and hated scum of the earth (e.g. myself included), and raises them up to teach and do His will, giving them His wisdom, so that they would (via God's wisdom and understanding) philosophically knock the lofty and prideful off of their high horse to the glory of God (in that, hopefully, they might come to grief and godly sorrow of their wrongdoing and be saved).

I've been doing this for over a decade now, and I can tell you that I have had numerous letters in which young men have asked me how I got started in ministry. They were asking for their own benefit, that they might start their own. I have told all of them that it takes being born again (i.e. having the Holy Spirit), wisdom from God, and hard work, but when recalling all those letters, every one I can remember declined and wanted the prestige and paycheck, so they went to seminary instead.

It was similar to when the man claimed he wanted to follow Christ, but when Christ told him it would not be a glorious trip, full of praise, money, and lavish things:
And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
-Luke 9:57-58

Most go to seminary because they get praise, money, and lavish things from whatever church building they end up ruling over, and such men make others twofold the child of hell than themselves:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
-Mat 23:15

I cannot make someone's choices for them; I can only tell them the truth, and let them decide. If they choose to remain in willful blindness, then I leave them to their blindness, as Jesus instructed us:
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
-Mat 15:13-14

All I can do is warn others of the danger, and some brethren listen, while others take the hard road, requiring Christ to come find the lost sheep and bring him back to repentance:
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
-Luke 15:4-7

I'm not sure what else to say, so I'll stop.

[creationliberty]

I have heard of this "Servus Christi" person you were referring to, and I decided to go look him up to see what he was teaching. I was not sure if I had heard him before or not, and after opening one of his videos, I do not believe I have heard him before, but I do recognize his channel name and icon from something in passing, so... I can't say for sure.

I went to his video on repentance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cui0Z8lCHY

@2:12 - He seemed pretty good at first, but the first red flag I saw with what he was teaching is that he is a student of lexicons and concordances, and those things deceive Christians on a regular basis because what most KJB-using teachers often do is refer to the "original Greek" that they get from a concordance that actually uses the same Westcott and Hort Greek manuscript as the new-age bible versions. In other words, they use a KJB to stay away from Westcott and Hort's minority text corruption, but then often remain willingly ignorant that the very concordances they are using were developed from the same corrupt Westcott and Hort manuscript.
If anyone wants to learn more, I have two articles than can help with that:
The 'Original Greek' Scam
The Dangers of Using Lexicons and Concordances
In short, they jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

@4:15 - I have been waiting for him to define 'repentance', but he has not done it yet. He has defined faith, but not repentance, which I find to be odd. I am becoming more skeptical of him as I listen to this because he states that "faith produces repentance," and that has made me curious about what he thinks the word 'repent' means.

@5:20 - He says that repentance and faith cannot exist apart from each other, and that is not necessarily true. I would rephrase that to say that repentance and faith cannot exist apart from each other in terms of the grace of salvation, now THAT is true, but there are those who have repented and not believed (i.e. Judas for example, Mat 27), and those who have believed, but not repented (i.e. Simon the Sorcerer for example, Acts 8 ).

@6:30 - Finally, he defines what he means. He says "repent means a change of mind," and that is NOT what repentance means. The word 'convert' means "to turn from sin" or "to change one's mind," but the word 'repent' means "grief and godly sorrow of wrongdoing," and therefore, just based on these few points alone, I cannot support or endorse that man's ministry.

Part of the reason for this is because I see a man who says that he relies on the Word of God for the understanding of doctrine, and he goes to the Word of God to get it; however, when it comes to definitions of the words in Scripture, he forsakes looking in the Word of God, and instead looks to lexicons, and that is the reason that, after only listening to him for six minutes, I do not trust him.

Perhaps he is born again in Christ, I do not know, but when a man comes preaching and claims he had comes to godly sorrow for his sin and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, I have more trust for his doctrine than I do for a man that simply claims that he "changed his mind" and believed. I have seen many false converts that claimed they "changed their mind," but they have no grief of their sin (i.e. godly sorrow) in their hearts.
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
-2Co 7:9-12

The passions to turn from sin and change the mind (i.e. conversion) come from godly sorrow, and only those who have come to that repentance will be saved. This is why this "Servus Christi" guy will not understand the correlation between many verses, such as:
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18
Does that say that God draws close to those who change their mind? Or that God saves those who make a decision for Christ? Or does it say that God draws close to those who have a broken heart, grieved of their wrongdoing? (i.e. That is what the word 'contrite' means.)
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
-Jms 4:6
Does God give grace to those who change their mind? Or does He give grace to those who have been given godly sorrow of the sin and humbled before God?
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
-Mark 10:15
Do fathers show their children mercy when they change their minds about things? Or do fathers show their children mercy when the children come to the father in tears of sorrow that they did wrong?

I pray that the Lord God would show "Servus Christi" his error, that he might understand the Gospel of Christ, and I pray that the Lord God also continue to show me my errors, that I might be effective for His purposes. I hope this is helpful to someone.

[BPJohn]

Chris and Tonya,

Thank you very much for your responses, and praise be to God that you have provided much insight into my struggles.

Again I have to point out that this has not been an easy pill to swallow, without being too heretical you could say it is like when Morpheus offers the red and blue pills to Neo.

My mom has been encouraging me to read through the scripture and make sure that I am understanding the context to which the various scriptures referencing these things. Things such as no office for one pastor to rule over the laity, denominations as has been pointed out by Chris, among other things. She has recommended me to read Job, because she has at times had faith crisis issues. She also suggests that I still go to seminary to learn things, and I would not have to become a pastor if I didn't want.

But if the things I am hearing or reading about are true, why go at all? Why waste the time and money when I should put in the time here at home to learn of these things. I would also say this is the second time that I have attempted to go in pastoral ministry, although the first time I had felt "unworthy" to go into ministry after having "sinned." Now that I am attempting to go again, why would something like this happen again to make me question going if not for God willing this to be so?

And not in the least these new findings have been making me sick, both physically and mentally. I am having spinning headaches from this and my stomach also is not doing well from this either. I pray that God truly is showing me the way here to find the true path that we are meant to walk as Christians and not as one who continues in error.

Thank you all for your time, and God bless!

[creationliberty]

I just heard the testimony of a woman today who, after she was saved, she prayed to God that she wanted "full disclosure" about what was really going on, and after many years, she verified one thing for certain:
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
-Ecc 1:17-18

[BPJohn]

Chris, thank you for your reply. It is hard having to go through this and I have been praying to God that He would make this ever so clear. I have started to bring this up with some of the people I know from one of the churches I attend, and one member immediately brought up how Paul made the case several times in his letters that we should have paid pastors. Another member also encouraged me to continue in the path of going to seminary.

My mother also has an issue with MacArthur being attacked for partnering with Hillsong, as in her words:

"But I take issue of him (Servus) saying that Hillsong MacArthur are guilty by association. I've known John MacArthur longer than Servus has been alive and his message has never changed. He has preached the Gospel, he is not one who asks for money. His focus has been on the Bible and definitely on Christ. The problem I have with Servus is that he is so focused on exposing people, he has forgotten the true commission, to make disciples of all nations, sharing the good news of Jesus Christ.
"James says 'Someone may say I have faith and I have works. I have faith and you have works. Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith with my works.'
"If you look at a godly man like MacArthur and all he has done not only will his faith be demonstrated by his works, I can attest to it. I've seen it. What has Servus done besides speak into his microphone and upload to YouTube? He is also so untransparent. Why? What is he hiding? I don't find him credible at all."

Now that I have seen your postings about him, I am needing to look into how just taking the lexicons and concordances as you have posted into consideration may not be a good idea as well. So there are some things about this person that might be debunked but one thing I am concerned about in relation to MacArthur is how he said that Christians can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. There are many who have come to MacArthur's defense about this and I have also researched the internet to see that MacArthur has yet to recant that viewpoint even after 7 years.

Blessings from God to you and your ministry.

[creationliberty]

Several times? More like, once, maybe twice depending on how you look at it, and furthermore, he never said "paid pastors" in the Bible.
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
-1Co 9:14
I talk about this more here:
http://creationliberty.com/articles/book1corinthians02.php#09

In context, he is saying that one who teaches the Word of God can receive a living for doing it from charity of other believers. That is a far cry difference from simply a "paid pastor," as many things are restricted and implied from such a phrase; limiting pay only to a "pastor" and not to those who preach the Word.

[MeganIA]

Hi John,

Thank you for sharing your testimony! It is great to hear that you are asking these questions. I too used to listen to Joshua and a whole host of youtube ministries before realizing that it was putting me in the same spot that following after a pastor was, relying on what they were telling me and not on God's word. I learned some interesting things from Joshua (for example, regarding the worship music as you had said in your post) , but what ultimately made me leave was his affiliation with Jacob Prasch. From what I understand, he is actually working or had at one time through his ministry, and Jacob does have a 501c3 as well as some leavened teachings.  With Chris' analysis of Joshua's definition of repentance, it does not surprise me at all.

This has been a great place and I think one that stresses the importance of studying God's word over following one man and verifying what is said just like the Bereans did to Paul. Chris puts out the material, but he cites his sources so we can do the study ourselves.

Romans 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[BPJohn]

Megan,

Thank you for the kind words. This is all so much to take in right now, but I'm trying to take this one day at a time. Later today after work I plan on trying to educate myself via the IRS website about 501c3. I sent my mother the Youtube session about the church and 501c3, and so far she has not responded back at all.

Many people are still pushing me to go to seminary, but as more and more of this is coming out, I am starting to be convinced not to go. I pray that I will be able to stand firm when I tell my parents about this, as I know they will be disappointed to hear of it.

[Dee Babbitt]

John, welcome to our forum group, and thank you for your testimony.  :-)

We are praying God will lead you to the right decision, that His Will for you be done.
It is difficult, when you have people in your life telling you what they think is best.  We can instead, pray to God for Him to show us.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

The men in our church here, they have ministries.  And they didn't attend seminary colleges.  There is Christopher, who has been given wisdom from God, not a seminary college.  And he teaches true Biblical doctrine (unlike what is dangerously taught at the seminary colleges).  We have Steve, who does jail minstries.  Joshua, leading week-day Bible studies.  Valerie, ministering to the homeless.  And so forth.  All doing work for God, and blessing others.  And God provides for these Christians. 

1 John 2:27

[Dee Babbitt]

oops... my post got cut off
here's the rest...

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

I pray God will give your family understanding, of what you are trying to tell them.  Have you shown them Christopher's book, "Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell"...(it's free, on the CLE website).  The message is urgently needed. 

I pray God will send you His Peace, and that He remove the headaches and confusion for you.  He is not the author of confusion.  Ask Him, and He will show you. 

p.s.  my son Joshua, and I, are in Lake Elsinore, only 44 minutes away from you :-)

[BPJohn]

Thank you for your response Dee.

What I have done since I was accepted to seminary is put off entry as delayed for a year. The reasons being is due to Covid-19 and also to take the year for discernment. There are a lot of things that I know I must dive into scripture for to make sure of where God is leading me in all this.

I began discussing with my dad tonight about the article Chris wrote on the one-pastor church system, there were some things that we talked about relating to what we should look for in a pastor/elder/deacon/bishop, and how these men are called to be shepherds of the flock as Paul writes in his letters.

This is making me consider if not pastoral ministry then perhaps missionary work could be involved.

Would love to also meet with you Dee provided that these stay at home orders can get lifted.

[Dee Babbitt]

We will pray that our Heavenly Father leads you, through His Word, to where He wants you to be.  :-)

It would be wonderful to meet you at some point :-)

Hopefully soon.  Yes, the stay-at-home orders are isolating so many people.  Thankfully, we have this forum, and Skype, etc.