I realized this morning that I didn't actually respond to this. I think it's because I didn't bother reading it since we spent more time trying to put out the fires Nate was starting in his rage and malice. I read the first sentence, and then saw where Tim had already banned him. I normally wouldn't waste time on it, but it might be good for others here since a few of you have said you don't know if you know the things you would need to know in order to understand how to respond. I don't know if I know the things I need to know in order to understand how to respond either, but we'll give it a try.
Those are all good Christian books worthy of reading for any Christian. Any spiritual problem I may have didnt come from any of those books.
As I stated in another post, for a man to have claimed to have been saved for almost 20 years and act this way in malice, rage, emulations, strife and wrath, there are one of three problems:
1. He's false brethren that was never converted.
2. He's a prodigal son, and needs to be put out of the church due to his sin. (i.e. let the Lord Jesus Christ bring him back in His own time)
and/or...
3. He is corrupted by the traditions of men and rudiments (foundational teachings) of the world. (Col 2:8 )
So, initially, he raged at the fact that I suspected he wasn't of Christ. He wanted us to check #1 off the list. He claimed repentance of his sin, so he wanted us to check #2 off the list. And now, he claims there is nothing wrong with the people he is studying from, so he wanted us to check #3 off the list. Then what's the source of his rage?
I say the problem is that he's lying to us, and lying to himself. He says the problem is me. (i.e. I'm the source of his rage?) I'll let God judge the matter, and I'll let you all judge for yourselves what you think the problem is.
And I check EVERYTHING that I read with the King James Bible. I don't state my gratefulness to good Christian authors out of any pride or because I'm heaping teachers, as you accuse me of.
I think Nate has a problem with thinking that, if he states something out of his mouth, it must automatically be true. Or, if he feels a certain way, that must be the Holy Spirit. If we say he's done something wrong, he just denies it first thing, every time, without discussion. How can he ever be rebuked or corrected?
Chris,
I admit that I sinned against you when I got angry and accused you of being a self righteous Pharisee by questioning my testimony-Ecclesiastes 7:9.
That wasn't the point of that whole interaction. The point was that he lied Tim and I, and falsely accused Tim of things I can prove Tim did not do, and he did so because of his malice and rage, and that malice and rage comes from the pride of his heart.
Where do people think anger comes from? It's like the story I read about where a mother had a bully for a son in a public school, and she over and over again would say to herself and others that he was a "good boy." After her son got expelled from a school, she got angry with the school, not angry with her son, because she was proud (i.e. prideful) of her son. (i.e. That's the danger in saying, "I'm proud of you.") So she took him to another school, and he she was quickly called in to discuss his bullying behavior, and she got furious with the new school as well. Through her pride, she welled up in anger, and could not see the truth.
For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.
-Psa 59:12Their lips are taken over by their pride, and they curse and lie when they speak.
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
-Psa 73:6Violence erupts when a man is covered in his own pride, which is why boxers or football players are brought into the arena with cheers, smoke, lights, and other flashy things, to lift them up in their pride for the sake of violence to ensue.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
-Pro 8:13Froward means unyielding or ungovernable, that is, without proper restraint, and that comes from pride and arrogance.
Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
-Pro 13:10Contention (i.e. the fighting and quarreling spirit) comes from the pride of the heart, but as I've taught many times in the past, we all know that it is only Chris Johnson that these verses were meant for. I am the only prideful person that has ever existed in this world, and if only I were dealt with properly, then there would be no more pride and everyone would be at peace.
I knew in my spirit that there was leaven and pride in you but I accused you without having any solid evidence.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
-Mat 7:5I never once broke out in rage against Nate. I was stressed (i.e. grieved) at having to deal with him every single day, but I tried to exercise the patience and charity that God has commanded from us. Nate took advantage of that, but what amazes me is that through all these interactions over the past week, his "discerning spirit" cannot detect any pride inwardly. Again, to me, that is evidence that he does not have the Spirit of God in him.
THAT was what the Lord convicted me about, THAT and the fact that I even entered dialogue with you or your forum without reading everything you believe first and that I threatened you with a lawsuit that I knew was a stupid statement. You do have some good stuff, but it's all overshadowed by your rash condemnation of good Christians like Mike Hoggard and your accusing churches of having a "devil's church" by having 501c3 status, and other stupidities.
Okay, first, let's go to his statement, which you can find here in the commentaries on 501c3:
https://http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=152.msg5359#msg5359Ugh, after reviewing all the facts about the 501c3 code of the IRS, I find it to be totally absurd. I had no idea. No group of Christians has any business going to the Federal government for ANYTHING regarding the duties, activities, rights or business of a church! 501c3 is totally unscriptural and NO Christian should have anything to do with it.Nate said that. He flip-flops more than a politician.
The fact is that what I suspect really set Nate off was when I said this:
To give you an example, and sadly, I don't have this recorded so I can show you, one day, our church was together over Skype (I think this was last fall) after a study and we were looking at Mike Hoggard and what he teaches. We found out that he's very slick. We spent somewhere between 2-3 hours going over one of his teachings. Others who were there can hopefully back this up and help me verify what we went over, but Mike Hoggard came out and clearly said that it was acceptable for Christ to be worshiped as a sun god, but here you are promoting his books as if he's a good teacher on spiritual matters.Now, you'll notice that I did not say that Mike Hoggard was not saved. I simply said that he was not a good teacher on spiritual matters because of absurd statements like that. If Hoggard doesn't have enough discernment to see in Scripture where God hates the worship of the sun, then I don't think he's qualified enough to be teaching anyone.
However, that's what really made Nate angry, and I believe it's because he's likely a
HUGE Mike Hoggard fan, and what I find hilarious a lot of times about these people who are big fans of these preachers is that, most of them have
NEVER spoken with them personally. Often, they have too big of a fan base and that's why, most of the time, you get back automated letters from their site, or hear from a secretary, and can't get a hold of them personally; therefore, they gain many followers because no one can really interact with them.
I've known for a long time that I would maintain a lot more listeners if I did
NOT respond to emails, or if I did so in a fluffy, public relations manner that didn't really address anything they were saying. I know that my response to emails sends people away; I know that my rebukes like I gave Nate sends people away too. I am
NOT here for publicity or popularity, and the church was never meant for that; we were meant to teach people the truth, and there are pastors and evangelists out there who need to be rebuked sharply so they can be sound (firmly grounded) in the faith.
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
-Titus 1:10-13To do such a thing requires operating on faith for the protection and care of the Lord God, and not to be afraid of what men say or do in response.
The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.
-Pro 29:25In short, it is the pride and respect of Mike Hoggard that led Nate into his rage. All I can say is that I'm suspicious of Mike Hoggard, and some investigation into him might be needed in the future.
After prayer I knew there was something wrong with you spiritually, and that I shouldn't have anything to do with you, but I wanted so bad to be wrong about that and have fellowship with a person I wanted to believe was a good Christian.
I'm not saying God didn't lead Nate away from us, or specifically me, but this gives me more evidence that he follows his feelings, and calls them the "Holy Spirit," and likely he was taught to do that by men like Mike Hoggard, which is why I tried to tell him that his education (i.e. the rudiments, or first teachings, of the world) and traditions were corrupting him.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
-Col 2:8You accused me with many false accusations in this post and YOU are the one who has sinned this time!
If you guys figure out where I sinned in that post I made to him, let me know. It appears that, according to Nate, I "sinned" against him, but he not explaining how or what specific sin that I committed. How is it that I can be corrected if I'm not told exactly what it is I did wrong?
I just KNEW that you think yourself to be some kind of authority for other Christians and act like a Protestant pope.
Well, if God called me to teach, then I do have authority in the church. I don't always like it, and it's not something I like saying very much because I don't think I'm worthy of authority, but I do have some, which makes me a servant, not a figurehead. Steve has authority in the church, and so does Kenneth (though he is not a member of our specific church, he has authority in the church as a whole because of his work), and we're all servants, not figureheads. But here's what confuses me: Why is it that he thinks Mike Hoggard has authority, but I don't? Or, does he think that none of the other authors and preachers he mentioned have any authority? That's really confusing.
Also, if you guys can point out to me anywhere I have acted like a "Protestant Pope," which is what Billy Graham has been labeled, then please let me know.
I have news for you, you're not my pastor and you're not my leader.
The term 'news' implies that I think I'm his pastor, and that I didn't know otherwise. I've never claimed to be a pastor at all. However, we, as Christians, have been given authority by God to rebuke sin, and that's what he doesn't like.
Also, you're foolish because you have this false confidence about who is going to Heaven and who isn't with statements like "Johnny Cash went to Hell" "Peter Ruckman went to Hell" etc How do you know that!? You really don't.
I know that I don't know that. However, God knows that, and what's interesting is that God left us a piece of communication which we now call "The Holy Bible," and the Bible, He tells us who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, so what I decided to do was trust Him at His Word, and others decided they are not going to trust Him at His Word. Okay. Let God judge the matter. However, I doubt Nate has the fear of God in his heart, or he would read Matthew and tremble in fear:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-Mat 7:21-23I read that, it frightened me, and I wanted to know the difference between those who are saved and those who claim to be saved but are not. Thank God, He teaches us that in His Word, and has taught it to mankind for the past 6,000 years.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18(Btw, Johnny Cash and Billy Graham were very close friends; birds of a feather flock together. [2Co 2:14-18] Also, based on what I've read, Peter Ruckman did not believe Johnny Cash was saved either. Would Nate then conclude that Peter Ruckman was a satanic, prideful, stupid false accuser? My point is that even all these authors that Nate loves, they all disagree with each other, and therefore, Nate is lukewarm; he rides the fence with all of them instead of picking a side.)
You don't know what went on between God and those men in their last days!
Are we to judge a matters based on hypothetical situations, or are we to judge matters based on evidence? Here's what I find hilarious, and I do laugh about this sometimes: It's as if people like Nate, who are many, believe that if you claim that someone went to hell on the basis of the evidence of their doctrine, words, and actions, and if someone was saved secretly in their hearts two minutes before they died, then you too will end up in hell for falsely accusing them. It's ridiculous.
Here's the problem with that: Let's say Billy Graham, two minutes before his death, in his heart, in secret, where no one else could hear, truly repented of his wickedness and everything he'd done. Sure, God would save him, and I believe that because God is ever merciful, but that does NOT mean we should now go study everything Billy Graham taught because we he taught those things, they were taught without the Spirit of God in wickedness, and those doctrines will lead men to hell.
Frankly, I don't understand why everyone is so scared to declare that if a man is teaching the doctrine of devils, that he is not of Christ. We can make such statements in careful analysis of their doctrine while still maintaining judgment on ourselves and checking one another. However, most of the time, I don't say that someone ended up in hell unless I know for certain that he taught doctrine contrary to the principles of Christ, or at least that he was later repentant of doing so. I don't know if Mike Hoggard is saved or not, but he's leavened, or he wouldn't teach people that sun worship was okay under certain circumstances.
Also, I've found that with your statement of people speaking in tongues as all being "Satanic gibberish", you've lumped false tongues with genuine moves of the Spirit and have inadvertently blasphemed through your stupidity.
So Nate also believes the charismatic gibberish is Biblical. He should go join their church then; if they truly have the Spirit of God in them, then he should be yoking up with them, not with us.
Charismatic Gibberish vs Speaking in TonguesYou are a satanic accuser of the brethren no matter how many things you get right and no matter how right you are about people like Billy Graham and Steven Anderson, you are a self conceited false accuser (2 Timothy 3:3, Revelation 12:10) and I'm sorry I've wasted so much time with you.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he hasn't actually told me where I falsely accused anyone... did he? In another post, I warned him that keyword searching was not the equivalent of a Bible study, and 2Ti 3 + Rev 12 were results of him keyword searching 'false' & 'accuser', but he gave two verse references, so... that's like the same as him actually understanding doctrine?
I really wanted to give you another chance. NOW we're done.
That really gave me the impression that, in his rage, he's trying to maintain some aspect of control over this whole situation. He feels powerless, so he's trying to act like he's dictating the terms of our interaction. Frankly, I wanted him to leave after his very first post because I knew something was wrong, but if I operated based on my feelings without first seeking out the evidence, then I might end up falsely accusing people of being unsaved.[/quote]
I want you to delete my account
No, we'll just ban you... Nate from "USA." (I'm surprised he didn't put his location as "Earth" or "Universe.")
and I never want anything more to do with you or your forum or your church.
Thank God for that; time will tell if he'll keep his word.
Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
-Pro 22:10It's been less than a day and I already feel much better and more at peace.
And remember, I will stay born again and in Christ regardless of your pride and stupidity no matter what you accuse me of.
Your declaration of salvation doesn't provide the evidence, otherwise, Jesus would have said, "Ye shall know them by their declarations."
I have never denied being prideful or stupid, and that's why I pray that God would give me humility and understanding because I can't do those things on my own. I have discernment only because of the Lord God, and so do all of you, but the least among you in discernment on this forum is far greater than Nate; he has no discernment whatsoever, and that is because I believe he does not have the Spirit of God in him, and that's because he was never converted. (i.e. He gained a membership to Club Church-ianity, and was satisfied with it.) At least we've now learned a lesson about feigned repentance.
