The Article 'Can Women Be Pastors?'

[anvilhauler]

I was reading the article again 'Can Women Be Pastors?' http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/womenteach.php and I am of the opinion that the term 'pastor' may be being used incorrectly.  Although today in the corporate churches they call the "head honcho" a "pastor" I see it that that is another thing they get wrong.  It seems they use the term 'pastor' interchangeably with 'elder' but the Bible uses both terms but shows they are different.  An elder is a position of authority in the church congregation, but being a pastor is a task that some undertake but they are not to be recognised with a title for doing it.

Ephesians 4 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The same way there is no person appointed as the church apostle, or the church prophet, or the church evangelist, from the scripture I see it that there is no person appointed as a church pastor, but rather that is something that is done within the congregation of some pastoring and mentoring others who may have difficulty, but that pastoring is also done under the watchful eye of the elders as they are the ones in authority placed over the church.  Hence the word pastor is only used once in the New Testament, but there are likely other references to the task using different wording.

There is a pastoral role that women are to perform, and although they are not permitted to teach a man or usurp the authority of a man, that role is that the aged women pastor the younger women as in the scripture below.

Titus 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2 that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Conversely, the term 'elders' is used differently in scripture.

Acts 14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

1 Timothy 5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. 19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Those in the position of being 'elders' are mentioned quite a few times in the New Testament.

Did you hear about the person with a pastoral ministry in the church?  The church made them a badge to say they were a pastor, but the elders had to take it off them because they started wearing it.

[creationliberty]

That's another article I want to rewrite; I may have misunderstood a few things too, but now I can't remember. I just know that God has increased my understanding over the past few years, and now I'd like to go back and review that. (I mean in terms of defining a pastor, not in terms of women being pastors; that is correct doctrine, no doubt.)

[Chris_Thacker]

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I came across a preacher who says that in 1 Cor 14:34-36, it only applies to women who have husbands,
he argues that because it says the plural "Women" here in context, only refers to the "they" of the next verse which says "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home"

Now, for me, I don't agree. And this is my argument to that.
I can see that the scripture is merely saying the for women(as a whole) who have questions, the person to ask is your husband.
Whether or not all the women have husbands or not, is not the point being made.

He goes on to 1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Here, he says, that because Adam and Eve were husband and wife, therefore 'the woman' refers only to those who are married.

I found these 2 arguments to be a weak effort to try and twist context,
Is it so hard to just read a text and take it literally.

As for this argument, I would argue back saying that the fact that Adam and Eve are husband and wife is irrelevant to the point that women are not to teach.
The point is gender has a role to play authority in both our own families and the family of the church.

He also uses the Gal 3:28 argument that we are all equal and one in the spirit, and spiritual gifts are unbiased to gender.
I find this to be a pointless argument, because even though, yes in the spirit there is no gender, but the point still remains, that in the flesh we still have 2 different genders, and therefore have God established roles to function as in those 2 genders.

Why is it so hard for people to accept this....
So many preachers not wanting to hurt their women's opinions of biblical doctrine.
Why so hard to just let the man lead, he does it already in the family, they agree with that, but as soon as it's the church, oh no, no, no, anybody can teach and lead.

I'm having to unbrainwash my fianc

[Jeanne]

I would ask this preacher then, does a female only become a woman after she's married? That's absurd!

[Chris_Thacker]

I would ask this preacher then, does a female only become a woman after she's married? That's absurd!

haha, yeah. That would be a good question.

[Chris_Thacker]

How would you answer someone who says that the whole concept of doctrine that women shouldn't teach/preach in church, was just for that church at that time.

A Christian friend of mine argued that, he said that it only applied to the corinth church, that it was written to them, so it's just for them.

[creationliberty]

So Ephesus allowed it, but Corinth wasn't allow? What basis is there in Scripture for that? For that matter, what commandment was the New Testament church given that was region specific? That's like saying, "Abstain from fornication, except demographics in southern cities."

[anvilhauler]

How would you answer someone who says that the whole concept of doctrine that women shouldn't teach/preach in church, was just for that church at that time.

A Christian friend of mine argued that, he said that it only applied to the corinth church, that it was written to them, so it's just for them.

1 Timothy 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The explanation about mankind above is timeless and is as valid today as it was 2000 years ago.  God used the apostles to teach how the church was to be organized until the end of the age and the apostles were given special insights in to many things.  The apostles were also given special insight in to the events that were going to happen in the last days and we know those accounts are correct and true.  It would be foolishness to ingnore what the apostles wrote and for whatever reason to go and do otherwise.  Many men aren't given a teaching ministry either, but God is certainly not going to give a teaching ministry to a woman and so anything she says will only be from herself   .....  her own rebellious self if she is teaching in a church   .....  and trouble and disaster is sure to follow along afterwards.