Marriage

[zachshrader]

I just had a long discussion/argument with my girlfriend about marriage and she said that she doesnt agree with my beliefs and shes not going to change hers and that shes not going to get married to me unless i change and decide to get married her way.  Obviously Im not going to compromise on Gods word and do the things of the pagans and get married by the state, so should I leave her? 

[creationliberty]

That's your call. You have a child; we can't make that decision for you. However, I'll ask a hypothetical question to you, and you can answer how you'd like. Let's suppose she were Catholic, and she said that the only way she would marry you was if you went through a Catholic ceremony. Would you do it?

[zachshrader]

No way, I wouldn't do it.  I'm wondering whether I would be justified in leaving her, because after all we arent married so we are not one flesh.  She claims to believe in God, but I told her a Bible verse yesterday and her words were literally "Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard". So I really believe that shes lying to me. 

2 Corinthians 6:14 -- "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

[Jeanne]

I know you're not married, and this is just my opinion, but I believe you should stay with her and still stand your ground on God's Word. Let her be the one to end the relationship if she wants.

The only reason I'm saying this is because there is a child involved. If you leave, how much influence would you be allowed to have in his life? Also consider the fact that if you stay and force her to be the one to walk out, there is no way she could come back later and accuse you of abandonment.

As I told Laura in another thread, if she tries the 'If you love me, you'll do this for me' tactic, turn it back around on her and tell her that if she loves you, she wouldn't ask you to do something you believe to be morally wrong.

I can only pray in this situation that God's will be done, whatever that may turn out to be.

[Masha]

I am sorry but I fail to see the problem. Your girlfriend wants to marry for the state, why is that a problem?
That is not against Gods word, as far as I know. I understand not wanting the whole circus people tend to have around it, I wouldnt want all that traditional rubbish either. But couldnt you just go and sign the papers? I believe there is something to say for legally getting married ( as I wrote in another post) The comment was that that is not important/valid for God, and that might be. But I can see why it can be important for your girlfriend, just like it matters to me.

Is it that she does not want to make her vows before God?
And even in that case, then what would that look like? A ceremony with a pastor, or just with fellow born-again Christians as witnesses... Or just you and her before God??

And, I am concerned with your child. Please do not haste to take any drastic decision. This child has needs and is innocent of your disagreements. It needs both parents to take full responsibility. You, as a father have a very important role, and you are responsible before God how your offspring turns out. Don't take that lightly!!

[creationliberty]

Zach, from a Biblical perspective, you did the right thing by Christ. You tried to marry the woman because you had a child with her. She obviously doesn't want to marry you, and if you did marry her, she would rule over your house, and continually threaten you with divorce. I can tell you that getting custody of your child is going to be next to impossible and I doubt you could afford the litigation for it, so you know how things are going to be for a while. It's a sad situation because your gf is obviously still a child herself, acting out, and everything that's coming in the future is going to be rough for her because she's rejecting your offer. I'm not sure what else I can do for you.

[zachshrader]

The problem is that people dont see the seriousness in signing contracts before reading them.  A marriage license is simply a business contract between the the two people and the state.  The contract removes God and makes him irrelevant in the "marriage" and makes the state the sole head of your marriage.  Meaning that the children had under that marriage contract are owned by the state and if we raise them any way that the state doesnt agree with, and they obviously dont agree with raising children by God and Jesus Christ, then they can easily hold up to their side of the contract and take your children.  Because hardly anyone agrees with raising your children truly by the word of God, and homeschooling etc.   The way we are getting married has not always been.  God did not intend for it to be this way,  but the state and the government wants all power over you and your family which they have and you are wilfully giving to them by signing that contract and I dont agree with any of that one bit. 

[creationliberty]

And you can't make a woman give you authority in your household. The Bible commands wives to "submit" themselves unto their husbands, which is a willful process. They need to do so by love in liberty, and the mother of your child has no interest in doing that, which means it wouldn't be much of a marriage in the first place. Trust in the Lord God, and let Him judge the matter; perhaps you should keep trying with her, or perhaps you should move on, I'm not sure. Moving on could make her see what she's losing, but maybe it won't; I can't tell.

[zachshrader]

Thank you Chris and everyone for your advice.  I believe a friend of mine planted the seed of Christ in me and God gave the increase.  That increase took many years for me.  Maybe Im being impatient but its hard to be patient.   Its hard to come out of 22 years of straight indoctrination. 

1 Corinthians 3 : 5-9 -- "5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

[Zack]

I find it interesting that she is basically forcing you to submit to her demands which goes contrary to submitting to you in the marriage model that may/or may not come in this case.   

[TruthKeeper]

Zack,

I am amazed by your maturity. I am divorced and I will say that I would never marry someone again unless they were totally sold out to the Lord. I would want everything done according to God's Word. You are leading her the right way and there is nothing for you to be sorry about. Either, she gives into God or you will be a miserable man trying to lead this woman. More than likely she is very indoctrinated by the world. I am trying to come out of a lifetime of worldly indoctrination from the church and it is very difficult.

[creationliberty]

We have two Zach/Zack people in here now, so you should distinguish which one you're talking to.

[Laura]

Zachary S.,

I agree with others that you should pray for patience and ask God to lead you. From my perspective, having a child myself, I think it is very important for the parents to stay together. You could stay with your girlfriend while praying for the marriage issue. What if she just needs time? Only God knows if/how long it will take, but what if she changed her mind in 6 months, 2 years, 10 years? Think about how happy you would be that you stayed with her! It would also show her that you will not give up on her and your family. In my opinion, it would be worth it, especially for the sake of your child. I will pray for you.

[Jeanne]

Zach, I forgot to ask; are you living with her? I know you said you stopped fornicating with her, but don't know if you were/are living under the same roof.

If you are living together, tell her that you will be living according to God's Word and that if she can't handle that, she is welcome to go find another place to live. Don't let her try to force YOU out, as again, that could be turned around and construed to mean that you were the one to leave the relationship.

Make it clear that you love her and are happy to support her and your son, but that you won't compromise your principles for her and that if she leaves, she's on her own.

Of course, if you are already living separately, this is all irrelevant. If that is the case, then maybe just back off from her a bit. Like, don't call her or go to visit her; let her be the one to contact you if she wants to see you.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't try to bring up the marriage issue with her again.

[creationliberty]

Well, they can't do that if they have a lease agreement together, which is typically required if both are living in the same place. She could insist that he move out because no one can legally force her to leave if she pays her bills... but that might be the key. Stop paying her half of the rent. If she doesn't want to live by your rules, then she needs to start providing for herself. Of course, that's a situation no one wants to live in, so it may just be that he would have to leave in that situation.

However, despite all the comments back and forth, there is one philosophical truth: Based on the information you've provided for us, she doesn't have any desire to live under your authority, and if that's the case, your marriage would end in divorce eventually. However, she wants a standard license so that when she divorces you (or in her mind, if you divorce her), she can take a bunch of property and money with her; without it, she knows she won't have that. That means, whatever you're hoping for currently doesn't exist; therefore, steps should be taken to reflect reality, even though you may not like that reality.

[zachshrader]

Yes we are living together Jeanne.  Not at our own place though Chris, so we dont have rent. We live at my mothers in her finished basement.  I tried to be patient since i posted this, but since Chris mentioned she doesnt want to live under my authority I noticed that to be very true. And last night she was very bad with it. She started rambling how I control everything like not vaccinating my son, not celebrating the holidays, eating organic, so I became impatient and attempted to break it off, so I said okay Holly listen, Im done. You dont want to marry me and I dont think you are the person I want to marry anyways. I dont need to be treated the way that I am (which is her being independent and being angry at me, speaking rudely to me etc.)  She cried after I said that but what I said is true so I stood my ground, but later she woke me up from sleep and apologized profusely and so I accepted her apology and she also said she would give up her idea of marriage.  Although she doesnt believe that my idea of marriage is real marriage she is willing to do it (she says) so I will give it another go.  If you all, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ can say a prayer for me on this matter I would greatly appreciate it.  Maybe I will start fasting tonight.  I really appreciate you all being there for me to give me advice.   

[creationliberty]

That was kind of my point: to push the matter to an ultimatum and see how she reacts. I should have been more clear about that. That was a good reaction, and so there's still hope. I live here in town, so let me know if you want to talk about it. (i.e. Send me an email, not on the forum. http://creationliberty.com/contact.php)

[Jeanne]

Chris, if you still have some copies of your book on feminism on hand, maybe you could give him one to let Holly read.

Zach, once Chris finishes the book he's writing on marriage, that would be a good one for both of you to read before you decide to make that commitment.