Pray with the spirit?

[Chris_Thacker]

I just finished the "Charismatic Gibberish vs Speaking in Tongues " article.

TONGUE: an intelligible language (contextually, it is a language spoken by a group of people living in the world)
UNKNOWN TONGUE: an intelligible language that is spoken to a group of people, but no one in the listening audience can understand the language
CHARISMATIC GIBBERISH: an unintelligible series of sounds used to express feelings, similar to what babies do

Please be patient with me if I have ignorance for the following question,
I just am still a little confused on the following issue.

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:

Pray with the understanding = To use our own will and mind in praying to God.
Pray with the spirit =

What does it mean to pray with the spirit?
I think the answer is the verse before.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth

so, therefore

Pray with the understanding = To use our own will and mind in praying to God. (an intelligible language)
Pray with the spirit = to pray in an unknown tongue. (an intelligible language)

am I right in this conclusion?

So, if both praying with understanding and with the spirit are both (an intelligible language), where in that then is the difference?

is it then???
Pray with the understanding =  (an intelligible language)
Of which we control what we want to say of our will.

Pray with the spirit = (an intelligible language)
Of which we believe in faith that the utterance coming out of our mouths is directly from the holy spirit and is an intelligible language

I am confused as to what exactly is 'the gift of tongues"
is it the ability to learn and speak another language? (of which the person must do their part in actually studying and practising that language.)

To be honest, I'm even confused of what I'm confused about.
....*sigh*....


anyways,
would appreciate any guidance on this issue.
Thanks

Chris Thacker

[Chris_Thacker]

Also, what would 'raying in the Holy Ghost,' mean?

Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

[Jeanne]

In Acts 2, Peter and the other disciples were given the gift of tongues when they preached to the multitudes and everyone heard the message in their own language. There were people there from many different countries. The disciples had never learnt these languages but they were speaking them.

Acts 2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galil

[Chris_Thacker]

In Acts 2, Peter and the other disciples were given the gift of tongues when they preached to the multitudes and everyone heard the message in their own language. There were people there from many different countries. The disciples had never learnt these languages but they were speaking them.

Acts 2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galil

Ok, so, I understand that the gift of tongues is ability (whether naturally/or supernaturally) to be able to speak a other language(s).

But, am still confused with

Pray with the understanding = To use our own will and mind in praying to God. (an intelligible language)
Pray with the spirit =

[Jeanne]

I'm sorry, I thought I posted a link to Chris' article on prayer. It must have gotten cut off.

https://http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/prayer.php

[Chris_Thacker]

I'm sorry, I thought I posted a link to Chris' article on prayer. It must have gotten cut off.

https://http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/prayer.php

Where exactly in that articel does it explain...
Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

[creationliberty]

No, it does not cover that verse in that article. I cover it more here:
https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/tongues.php
The understanding is in the context of the chapter, which I cover in that article. Let me know if that does not explain it to you well enough.

[Chris_Thacker]

I would appreciate if you could just expound on a answer in this post,
you may well have by your own understanding think that you have answered this issue in the article, but I just don't see it.

1 Cor 14:14
Jude 1:20

I am specifically confused on what exactly "praying inthe spirit' would mean in the above verses?


Thanks
Chris Thacker

[Chris_Thacker]

I would appreciate if you could just expound on a answer in this post,
you may well have by your own understanding think that you have answered this issue in the article, but I just don't see it.

1 Cor 14:14
Jude 1:20
I am specifically confused on what exactly "praying in the spirit' would mean in the above verses?
Thanks
Chris Thacker

I need a scriptural argument to oppose the concept of a "private prayer language" that people claim from the above passages.
I am of the notion that the gift of tongues is
the supernatural ability to speak another language  for either
1- to non believers as preaching the gospel
2- to edify the church by which must be done with interpretation.

[Chris_Thacker]

As much as I know that Chris dislikes the website , gotquestions.org
I still nonetheless did find that the following article is a good summary and answer to the concept of modern day
speaking in tongues as a 'prayer language'.

I would appreciate your thoughts and biblical analysis of the following article, thanks.


As a background, please read our article on the gift of speaking in tongues. There are four primary Scripture passages that are cited as evidence for praying in tongues: Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 14:4-17; Ephesians 6:18; and Jude verse 20. Ephesians 6:18 and Jude 20 mention “praying in the Spirit.” However, tongues as a prayer language is not a likely interpretation of “praying in the Spirit.”

Romans 8:26 teaches us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.” Two key points make it highly unlikely that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues as a prayer language. First, Romans 8:26 states that it is the Spirit who “groans,” not believers. Second, Romans 8:26 states that the “groans” of the Spirit “cannot be expressed.” The very essence of speaking in tongues is uttering words.

That leaves us with 1 Corinthians 14:4-17 and verse 14 especially: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” First Corinthians 14:14 distinctly mentions “praying in tongues.” What does this mean? First, studying the context is immensely valuable. First Corinthians chapter 14 is primarily a comparison/contrast of the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecy. Verses 2-5 make it clear that Paul views prophecy as a gift superior to tongues. At the same time, Paul exclaims the value of tongues and declares that he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (verse 18).

Acts chapter 2 describes the first occurrence of the gift of tongues. On the day of Pentecost, the apostles spoke in tongues. Acts chapter 2 makes it clear that the apostles were speaking in a human language (Acts 2:6-8). The word translated “tongues” in both Acts chapter 2 and 1 Corinthians chapter 14 is glossa which means “language.” It is the word from which we get our modern English word “glossary.” Speaking in tongues was the ability to speak in a language the speaker does not know, in order to communicate the gospel to someone who does speak that language. In the multicultural area of Corinth, it seems that the gift of tongues was especially valuable and prominent. The Corinthian believers were able to better communicate the gospel and God’s Word as a result of the gift of tongues. However, Paul made it abundantly clear that even in this usage of tongues, it was to be interpreted or “translated” (1 Corinthians 14:13, 27). A Corinthian believer would speak in tongues, proclaiming God’s truth to someone who spoke that language, and then that believer, or another believer in the church, was to interpret what was spoken so that the entire assembly could understand what was said.

What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues? First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.

This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language. This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4). This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)? 2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7)? 3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?

Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language, and Satan and his demons are well able to understand human languages. 2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.

What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences. Second, many of the cults and world religions also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues. This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture. Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought.

Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree. Praying in tongues is not what determines salvation. Praying in tongues is not what separates a mature Christian from an immature Christian. Whether or not there is such a thing as praying in tongues as a personal prayer language is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. So, while we believe the biblical interpretation of praying in tongues leads away from the idea of a private prayer language for personal edification, we also recognize that many who practice such are our brothers and sisters in Christ and are worthy of our love and respect.

[Joop]

Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree.

I was in a pentecostal church for many years (in a denomination, linked to Foursquare). Though a moderate pentecostal church (I thought!), still a pentecostal church. About 10 years ago I started doubting the whole practicing of speaking in tongues for your own edification. After a lot of studying myself, I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues for edification was all nonsense. However, I didn't quit the church. I should have. Nearly 4 years ago, a preacher taught that speaking in tongues could give you insights and wisdom. I strongly objected to that, wrote some letters to the preacher and the 'team'. Sadly, I was not taken seriously. A few weeks later, I left the church (to NEVER EVER return!)
I as see now: pentecostalism is really a cult. Speaking in tongues to gain wisdom etc. is nothing less than witchcraft. Yes, WITCHCRAFT! So, the whole concept of agreeing to disagree is nonsense, indeed, very dangerous.
I have some friends I know for decades now. They are still pentecostals. I triend to convince them speaking in tongues, as taught today, is nonsense. They won't listen. I gave them argument after argument. Biblical arguments. They won't listen. Sad.
Again, agreeing to disagree is not a very good idea, so to speak.
It is not disagreeing on a minor issue. Speaking in tongues, as taught in pentecostalism,  is superstition, even anti-christ (!).

[Chris_Thacker]

Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree.

I was in a pentecostal church for many years (in a denomination, linked to Foursquare). Though a moderate pentecostal church (I thought!), still a pentecostal church. About 10 years ago I started doubting the whole practicing of speaking in tongues for your own edification. After a lot of studying myself, I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues for edification was all nonsense. However, I didn't quit the church. I should have. Nearly 4 years ago, a preacher taught that speaking in tongues could give you insights and wisdom. I strongly objected to that, wrote some letters to the preacher and the 'team'. Sadly, I was not taken seriously. A few weeks later, I left the church (to NEVER EVER return!)
I as see now: pentecostalism is really a cult. Speaking in tongues to gain wisdom etc. is nothing less than witchcraft. Yes, WITCHCRAFT! So, the whole concept of agreeing to disagree is nonsense, indeed, very dangerous.
I have some friends I know for decades now. They are still pentecostals. I triend to convince them speaking in tongues, as taught today, is nonsense. They won't listen. I gave them argument after argument. Biblical arguments. They won't listen. Sad.
Again, agreeing to disagree is not a very good idea, so to speak.
It is not disagreeing on a minor issue. Speaking in tongues, as taught in pentecostalism,  is superstition, even anti-christ (!).

Hi there, I too am starting to question the idea of a "private spiritual prayer langauge'
However, I do not know how to explain the following verse..
1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

I always see this used as a proof text for speaking/praying in 'tongues' to oneself.

Do you have any interpretations otherwise?

[Joop]

Hi there, I too am starting to question the idea of a "private spiritual prayer langauge'
However, I do not know how to explain the following verse..
1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

This is a rebuke, not an encouragement!

Please compare these verses:

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowlegde. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth 1 Cor 8:1

Charity sufferth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil 1 Cor 13:4-5

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

and

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit whithal 1 Cor 12:7

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

Please, also read all the verses after 1 Cor 14:4. As you can see, Paul wasn't quite happy with all that 'speaking in tongues' in Corinth.

[Chris_Thacker]

Hi there, I too am starting to question the idea of a "private spiritual prayer langauge'
However, I do not know how to explain the following verse..
1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

This is a rebuke, not an encouragement!

Please compare these verses:

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowlegde. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth 1 Cor 8:1

Charity sufferth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil 1 Cor 13:4-5

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

and

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit whithal 1 Cor 12:7

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4a

Please, also read all the verses after 1 Cor 14:4. As you can see, Paul wasn't quite happy with all that 'speaking in tongues' in Corinth.

Ok, well even if it was a rebuke, the verse stills says that a person is personally 'edified' when they speak in an unknown tongue.
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  1 Cor 14:4

I don't know how to resolve this verse,
it's like the 'ultimate' proof text people use to justify speaking in tongues by themselves claiming they are 'edifying ' themselves, as according to 1 Cor 14:4.

As of now, I'm confused, because in many other verses, I see the importance on the purpose of tongues in only two ways.
1- to non believers as preaching the gospel
2- to edify the church by which must be done with interpretation.

but other christians claim that because of 1 Cor 14:4, there is therefore a 3rd use

3- to edify oneself ( by allowing the spirit to pray for you in an unknown tongue)

[creationliberty]

You're attempting to get into the technical details of a particular verse out of 1Co 14. 1Co 14 has a general context that is follow, which is why just explaining that particular verse isn't necessarily going to help give a detailed understanding. I'm not just throwing an article at you, but I literally walked through the Scripture, to which you could see down through the page as I go through each verse, and pick out which ones you want to go over.

I don't know what all the confusion is, and I haven't read through this whole thread because it seems very convoluted and confusing.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
-1 Corinthians 14:14-16
I am unable to figure out what is complicated about these three verses, as they seem very self-explanatory. In my experience, I've found that whenever I, or someone else in the church, fails to understand a very simple concept in the verses, it's usually because we're working to unbrainwash ourselves from previous false doctrines we were taught. I don't know what those doctrines are in this case, so I can't figure out the core message of what needs to be taught to help give understanding.

'Amen' is an agreement of truth, and one cannot say 'amen' to that which they do not understand. Though one prays in his spirit, meaning that he is praying within himself, one does not edify (build up, encourage, teach, help) the rest of the church through that prayer. I pray in my spirit of my mind all the time when I'm alone. I may not say words out loud, but I say them within my heart/mind, which are direct parts of the spirit, and conceptually understood, whether I am speaking my own language in my heart/mind or not.

The gift of tongues is to speak other languages than one's own native language(s). There are two ways that is accomplished: Either by the Holy Spirit of God giving men utterance, or by men learning and speaking other languages. In either instance, the languages heard are languages understood by the listener and/or interpreter; if by the interpreter, then he translates for all to understand.

I don't know what else to say.

[Chris_Thacker]

I think I get it now...

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

When it says 'an unknown tongue' it could be saying it is an unknown tongue to the others in the Church
(seeing as the context of the whole chapter is church order)

Therefore, because it is an unknown tongue to everyone else, other than the speaker, it is in that sense then, that he is 'edifying himself'
in that only he is understanding himself and the tongue/language that he is speaking/praying with.

What do you think of that interpretation?

Thanks

[creationliberty]

When it says 'an unknown tongue' it could be saying it is an unknown tongue to the others in the Church
(seeing as the context of the whole chapter is church order)

Therefore, because it is an unknown tongue to everyone else, other than the speaker, it is in that sense then, that he is 'edifying himself'
in that only he is understanding himself and the tongue/language that he is speaking/praying with.

Oh, I didn't know that's what the confusion was about. Yeah, that's correct. That's the only way it can be taken contextually because when he's praying within himself, he's not speaking out loud. But when we pray out loud, we should pray with understanding, just as when we pray within ourselves, we should pray with understanding, and to pray out loud in an unknown tongue, meaning a language the audience doesn't understand, will not edify anyone, and will only cause confusion.

[Chris_Thacker]

When it says 'an unknown tongue' it could be saying it is an unknown tongue to the others in the Church
(seeing as the context of the whole chapter is church order)

Therefore, because it is an unknown tongue to everyone else, other than the speaker, it is in that sense then, that he is 'edifying himself'
in that only he is understanding himself and the tongue/language that he is speaking/praying with.

Oh, I didn't know that's what the confusion was about. Yeah, that's correct. That's the only way it can be taken contextually because when he's praying within himself, he's not speaking out loud. But when we pray out loud, we should pray with understanding, just as when we pray within ourselves, we should pray with understanding, and to pray out loud in an unknown tongue, meaning a language the audience doesn't understand, will not edify anyone, and will only cause confusion.

Hi Chris,

Sorry if I caused any confusion for you, sometimes it's hard to articulate in words what exactly my question is or query is over a certain biblical doctrine.
I'm so glad to have finally come to some concrete conclusions for the topic of "tongues".
It has been a very in depth study, I thank God for the revelation he gave you, I learnt much from your article, which was one of many I used for research.

Ever since listening to the youtube series which you did on tongues, I saw the scriptural support for the conviction I was starting to get on the purposeless gibberish that I myself had been ignorantly deceived by for many years.

I've started to share this new understanding with my mother, and she too started to see the truth of this deception.
Satan is using this false concept to create confusion and pointlessness in the Church.

I'd like to consult you and others on the forum of what you think of my summary, as follows

The gift of tongues
YES-
1 - The supernatural ability to tell the gospel to those of an unknown language to that of the speaker.
2 - The supernatural ability to edify the church through interpretation of an unknown tongue to that of the speaker.

NO-
1- A private spiritual prayer language?
This comes from the misinterpretation of 1 Cor 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;
When it says 'an unknown tongue' it means is an unknown tongue to the others in the Church.
(seeing as the context of the whole chapter is church order)
Therefore, because it is an unknown tongue to everyone else, other than the speaker, it is in that sense then, that he is 'edifying himself'
in that only he is understanding himself and the tongue/language that he is speaking/praying with.

2- Tongues...self edification?
Again, this is another misinterpretation of two verses
1 Cor 14:14-For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,
Jude 1:20 - But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit.

The most common false connection is made with the phrases
pray in an unknown tongue = spirit prayeth
Therefore, to "pray in the Holy Ghost" = pray in an unknown tongue

The spirit prays and in the holy spirit are two separate concepts.
Indeed, when someone is supernaturally speaking in an unknown tongue, of course, it is the spirit that is enabling that.
But that should not be taken as in the holy spirit.
In the spirit is stating that is by the help and power of the spirit who convicts us in how and what we are to pray for.


END OF SUMMARY.


I often find that the only two arguments people make for the concept of an unknown tongue as a private self-edifying prayer language comes from these 2 cases.
I'd appreciate if any of you could help add to/correct/adjust this summary.
For each controversial doctrinal issue, I am creating short, but to the point, conclusions to help me when confronting other christians about these doctrines.

Thanks all!
Chris Thacker

[creationliberty]

I don't know if that's how those people try to interpret it or not; I've never been a part of those charismania church buildings. The spiritual gift of tongues is only defined in speaking a language, and the voice is understood by those of other languages supernaturally. The only other context tongues are used in is naturally known/learned spoken languages. I could be wrong if I missed something, but I don't recall the Bible talking about a "heavenly language," and even if the Bible does, I definitely don't recall any instance in which men are found to be speaking a "heavenly language" that no one else can understand. Therefore, we have to operate on the context we're given in Scripture, and so to interpret it any other way (i.e. via the "heavenly language" gibberish) is going outside the context of Scripture, using special private interpretations.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
-1Pe 1:20
As I pointed out, from a historical perspective, the gibberish has only been around since the turn of the 20th century; there's no historical record that I'm aware of in which people were doing that prior to that time, which is not to say that no one had, but if this was God's commandment and blessing that the church do this, then why hasn't the church always done it? It doesn't make any sense to Scripture either.

[TheChickenWhisperer]

Wow!  Thank you so much for all you have written in this thread!  I have been asked why I don't pray "in spiritual language" when I pray privately.  1 Corinthians 14 was a definite answer!  It was interesting too to read that it only would edify me, not anyone else.  Thank you!