The term Christian.

[CharlesKeys]

This is not an argument but to clarify why folks such as my wife and I are trying to steer away from using the term "Christian" so much as our belief. (We chose "other" when joining the forum)

In Acts 11:26 we read that "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." To me this implies that the people of Antioch tagged them with that name after they had spent a whole year there teaching and doing the works of the Lord.

Jesus never referred to anyone as a "Christian" nor did any of the Apostles refer to themselves as "Christians". The Apostle Paul never referred to any of the folks he traveled with as Christians but in most occasions as the brethern or fellow companions/workers. 1 Cor 11:1 Paul exhorts the disciples at Corinth to "Be ye followers of me even as I also am of Christ".

In my opinion, this was a man given term to those teaching the people of Antioch about Jesus.

We prefer the terms "disciples" and "followers of Jesus" over that term.

In our society, the majority of people you speak to will claim to be a Christian.  The liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc, they all who attend church and those who don't if they have been told they were saved at some point in their lives will refer to themselves as Christians.  To us, it really puts folks an a generalized group that can live anyway they want in the eyes of society.

My Spirit has been grieved on different occasions when that term was applied to folks whom I know are not following Jesus and are false teachers.

If, folks want to refer to themselves as Christians, we have no problem with that. We understand the reason and the implication from those who are true disciples and followers of Jesus. 

That being said, we love you all and hope to be productive and exhort you in that most wonderful name of Jesus.

Be Blessed.

Charles.

[CharlesKeys]

May I add to my closing, we always welcome reproof and correction when we are in error.  Our greatest desire is to know more about Jesus and his teachings.

[Joop]

Hi Charles,

I gave your post some thought.
First, as you said:

In our society, the majority of people you speak to will claim to be a Christian.  The liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc, they all who attend church and those who don't if they have been told they were saved at some point in their lives will refer to themselves as Christians.  To us, it really puts folks an a generalized group that can live anyway they want in the eyes of society.

The tag 'Christians' has been diluted and misused ever since.

However, as I see from the context:

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch
What I see is this: 'Christians' is linked to 'disciples'. So that would mean that 'Christians' were (in Antioch) real Christians, i.e. disciples
It was written down by Luke. From the context is would seem to me that 'Christians' was not a man-made tag.
If it was, we should not use the term 'Christians'. I believe, Luke made a statement, rather than put forward a term we should not use at all.

[Joop]

I also should mention that Antioch was the first place where the disciples were called Christians. That would imply that, after Antioch, there were more places / towns where the disciples were called Christians.

[zachshrader]

I'm not being rude or trying to run you off or make you angry or anything, but the Bible is Gods word and I dont think that would be mentioned in the Bible if it werent okay.   But I dont think you would go to hell for saying you are a follower of Christ over saying you are a Christian. 

[CharlesKeys]

zachshrader,

I'm not being rude or trying to run you off or make you angry or anything, but the Bible is Gods word and I dont think that would be mentioned in the Bible if it werent okay.   But I dont think you would go to hell for saying you are a follower of Christ over saying you are a Christian. 

you aren't going to run me off by speaking your opinion. I appreciate you responding.  As far as it not being mentioned in the bible if it weren't ok, there are many things mentioned in the bible that we do not do or follow!  Just because something is mentioned in the bible does not make it correct to follow. In the last 4 years, the Lord has taught me I have a choice whether to be offended at folks opinions or nor. I choose not to be. 

Joop,

I also should mention that Antioch was the first place where the disciples were called Christians. That would imply that, after Antioch, there were more places / towns where the disciples were called Christians.

Hi Charles,

I gave your post some thought.
First, as you said:

In our society, the majority of people you speak to will claim to be a Christian.  The liar, cheater, fornicator, thief, etc, they all who attend church and those who don't if they have been told they were saved at some point in their lives will refer to themselves as Christians.  To us, it really puts folks an a generalized group that can live anyway they want in the eyes of society.

The tag 'Christians' has been diluted and misused ever since.

However, as I see from the context:

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch
What I see is this: 'Christians' is linked to 'disciples'. So that would mean that 'Christians' were (in Antioch) real Christians, i.e. disciples
It was written down by Luke. From the context is would seem to me that 'Christians' was not a man-made tag.
If it was, we should not use the term 'Christians'. I believe, Luke made a statement, rather than put forward a term we should not use at all.

if there were, it is never mentioned in the scriptures.  The term Brethren is used 229 times after the Gospels but the term Christian is used only one. I did the count after the Gospels to try to leave out the term when it was used as Jesus family.  Fellow helpers, prisoners, citizens, heirs, soldiers, laborers, servants and workers are all used to denote followers of Jesus.  I would think we could choose any of these and be correct depending on the circumstances.  I personally think Luke was repeating what the citizens of Antioch said about the disciples.

The term "Christian" is so loosely used in our society that it really means noting as to what the Athenians meant it to mean.  I and my wife have many people in our families who are not and have never been born again who call themselves Christians.  It means nothing to them and when they hear that term it means nothing to them.

In todays society, it no longer carries the meaning of being sanctified and set apart.  It no longer means that you have removed yourself from the unclean and become a peculiar people.

We were just trying to allow folks to understand why we chose the "other" instead of "Christian" for our beliefs.   

Thank you for your comments and may you be blessed.

Charles.
 

[Timothy]

Jesus never referred to anyone as a "Christian" nor did any of the Apostles refer to themselves as "Christians".

Peter did refer to those in the church as Christian here:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter is explaining that we shouldn't suffer as a murderer or a thief, meaning we shouldn't do those things because it's sin, but rather suffer for the name of Christ by doing righteousness in His name. And he called this suffering "as a Christian". So it's incorrect to say that the Apostles did not refer to themselves as Christians.

Also look here:

Acts 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

After Paul gave his speech and asked Agrippa if he believed, Agrippa replied "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." Paul did not correct him but said, "I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am". Paul considered himself a Christian here and he was not ashamed to do so else he would have corrected Agrippa. Because if that's something that we should avoid calling ourselves Paul would have spoke up about that. Even back then Paul warned of false brethren that would call themselves Christians or disciples which brings me to my next point.

If we were never called Christians, the issue you have with being called that would not go away. Take any of those things that Paul called those in the church that you listed. If none of us called ourselves Christians and instead called ourselves disciples, then you would have a bunch of false converts calling themselves 'disciples of Christ'. If you took that away and we called ourselves 'followers of Christ', you would then have a bunch of false converts calling themselves 'followers of Christ'. All those other things would be what the world so loosely uses in our society. And already those people refer to themselves as those things anyway.

So, however you go about it, the problem you are trying to address will never go away no matter what you call yourself because there will always be false converts. I have talked to people who say they are followers of Jesus who really aren't. Joyce Meyer, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen and countless other false teachers call themselves disciples. So what does calling yourself a disciple or follower of Jesus really solve?

[CharlesKeys]

Jesus never referred to anyone as a "Christian" nor did any of the Apostles refer to themselves as "Christians".

Peter did refer to those in the church as Christian here:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter is explaining that we shouldn't suffer as a murderer or a thief, meaning we shouldn't do those things because it's sin, but rather suffer for the name of Christ by doing righteousness in His name. And he called this suffering "as a Christian". So it's incorrect to say that the Apostles did not refer to themselves as Christians.

Also look here:

Acts 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

After Paul gave his speech and asked Agrippa if he believed, Agrippa replied "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." Paul did not correct him but said, "I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am". Paul considered himself a Christian here and he was not ashamed to do so else he would have corrected Agrippa. Because if that's something that we should avoid calling ourselves Paul would have spoke up about that. Even back then Paul warned of false brethren that would call themselves Christians or disciples which brings me to my next point.

If we were never called Christians, the issue you have with being called that would not go away. Take any of those things that Paul called those in the church that you listed. If none of us called ourselves Christians and instead called ourselves disciples, then you would have a bunch of false converts calling themselves 'disciples of Christ'. If you took that away and we called ourselves 'followers of Christ', you would then have a bunch of false converts calling themselves 'followers of Christ'. All those other things would be what the world so loosely uses in our society. And already those people refer to themselves as those things anyway.

So, however you go about it, the problem you are trying to address will never go away no matter what you call yourself because there will always be false converts. I have talked to people who say they are followers of Jesus who really aren't. Joyce Meyer, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen and countless other false teachers call themselves disciples. So what does calling yourself a disciple or follower of Jesus really solve?

This is true and I stand corrected.

You are correct in your thoughts about how any of those terms would be handled by the world also.  They are already being used by many falsely.  I guess, it just seems like to me the term "Christian" is used more and handled so loosely.  After being away from the religious system for so long (25yrs) and then returning to a system that was and still is even more so full of hypocrisy, the taste has been kind of bitter.   

Finding the teachings of Chris online has been a blessing and joining this group will be also I am sure.

Being a Christian, follower of Jesus, disciple, etc, may we do it all to His glory and for the edification of his body!

Be Blessed Timothy.

Charles.

[Jeanne]

There is actually a denomination of mainline churches called Disciples of Christ, so Tim is right that all these other terms are misused as well.

Personally, I don't really care what label a person who is truly born again chooses to use for themselves but for the purpose of this forum, I can assure you that the belief 'Christian' is ONLY those who are born again. If someone joins the forum here and says they're a Christian when they really aren't, they are usually exposed pretty quickly and they either leave or are kicked out.

I praise God that you are so humble and willing to learn, That is very rare, ESPECIALLY among people who have gone to seminary and been ordained ministers. In fact, I think you are the first person I've ever met who has come from that type of background who has come here with that type of attitude. Usually, they think they know more about the Bible than we do because of their 'education'.

There is one other guy on the forum here who is a PK (preacher's kid) and left his father's church along with his twin brother to study the Bible on his own to learn what God REALLY says in His word.

[CharlesKeys]

There is actually a denomination of mainline churches called Disciples of Christ, so Tim is right that all these other terms are misused as well.

Personally, I don't really care what label a person who is truly born again chooses to use for themselves but for the purpose of this forum, I can assure you that the belief 'Christian' is ONLY those who are born again. If someone joins the forum here and says they're a Christian when they really aren't, they are usually exposed pretty quickly and they either leave or are kicked out.

I praise God that you are so humble and willing to learn, That is very rare, ESPECIALLY among people who have gone to seminary and been ordained ministers. In fact, I think you are the first person I've ever met who has come from that type of background who has come here with that type of attitude. Usually, they think they know more about the Bible than we do because of their 'education'.

There is one other guy on the forum here who is a PK (preacher's kid) and left his father's church along with his twin brother to study the Bible on his own to learn what God REALLY says in His word.

Thank you Jeanne, I appreciate the patience this group/Moderators has with the new members who are desiring to know more about our Lord! It truly is our desire to know more about Jesus and His teachings. 

We know that this knowledge brings us the fullness of the Father and that is our desire, to have his fullness.  To be able to love and care with a humble heart while defending this wonderful gospel at all cost. 

It has cost us the avoidance of being able to converse about Jesus with most of our families who attend church.  Our hearts ache for them, they have been fed this traditional stuff for so long, they have bought into the lie! 

At any rate, again, thank you and have a Blessed evening my fellow servant of Jesus!

Charles.

[Timothy]

Its good to have someone here that is willing to listen and learn. We dont get too many like that. I think someone like you will bring in some interesting topics to discuss here.

[creationliberty]

After we all got off of Skype after the teaching yesterday, I just took time to rest and purposely didn't respond to much of anything. I was kind of hoping someone else would answer this point, and I'm glad Tim did it. It's on my "to-do" list of articles to write about whether we should call ourselves Christians or not because that's been a recurring theme in some folks who come here, and it's understandable because I was led to believe the same thing very early on after I was saved. For about the first year or so, I wouldn't say I was a "Christian" either, until I read those things in Scripture and took time to consider the matter. Thankfully, God opened my eyes that it is not what we are called, but what we confess and teach that matter.

Many have taken on the name of Christ and have shamed and corrupted His Holy Name by their words and actions. I also have been guilty of doing the same, but for the light of Christ, I would not know any different; therefore, we ought to go forward walking as children of light, and correcting those who have a false idea of what Christianity means, while proving to them what it ought to look like.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
-Ephesians 5:8-11

[CharlesKeys]

Many have taken on the name of Christ and have shamed and corrupted His Holy Name by their words and actions. I also have been guilty of doing the same, but for the light of Christ, I would not know any different; therefore, we ought to go forward walking as children of light, and correcting those who have a false idea of what Christianity means, while proving to them what it ought to look like.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
-Ephesians 5:8-11

After reading Tim's reply and considering the matter more I have come to think this would be the correct thing. To re-establish this wonderful name as it should be.  To be Christ like and lead lives worthy of that name so those whom we encounter will know the difference in a church member and a Christian!

Thanks for all the input!

[creationliberty]

Oh, I guess I should ask; did you want me to change that on your profile then under the belief category?

[anvilhauler]

After we all got off of Skype after the teaching yesterday, I just took time to rest and purposely didn't respond to much of anything. I was kind of hoping someone else would answer this point, and I'm glad Tim did it. It's on my "to-do" list of articles to write about whether we should call ourselves Christians or not because that's been a recurring theme in some folks who come here, and it's understandable because I was led to believe the same thing very early on after I was saved. For about the first year or so, I wouldn't say I was a "Christian" either, until I read those things in Scripture and took time to consider the matter. Thankfully, God opened my eyes that it is not what we are called, but what we confess and teach that matter.

Many have taken on the name of Christ and have shamed and corrupted His Holy Name by their words and actions. I also have been guilty of doing the same, but for the light of Christ, I would not know any different; therefore, we ought to go forward walking as children of light, and correcting those who have a false idea of what Christianity means, while proving to them what it ought to look like.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
-Ephesians 5:8-11

For those in the world who claim they are Christians but are not and cause trouble for those who soundly proclaim Christ and teach correctly from the Word.

Revelation 3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[CharlesKeys]

Oh, I guess I should ask; did you want me to change that on your profile then under the belief category?

Sorry Chris, I hadn't been back in this part of the forum.  That would be fine to change it to Christian.

Its good to have someone here that is willing to listen and learn. We dont get too many like that. I think someone like you will bring in some interesting topics to discuss here.

Yes, the Sabbath will be one of them.  There is much I have studied and given my mind to. I have prayed much and ask for understanding in this area and there has been a lot of scripture to deal with.   The sabbath is much more than a day as Jesus implied when he told the Pharisees that man was not made for the Sabbath but the sabbath was made for man!  I love praying and studying after I left the modern church. The Holy Spirit is such a good teacher!!

[Under Duress]

"The term Brethren is used 229 times after the Gospels but the term Christian is used only one. I did the count after the Gospels to try to leave out the term when it was used as Jesus family.  Fellow helpers, prisoners, citizens, heirs, soldiers, laborers, servants and workers are all used to denote followers of Jesus.  I would think we could choose any of these and be correct depending on the circumstances."

Well said

[Ellie]

Did you read the whole thread?  The man you quoted conceded to the scriptures when they were presented, and he came to understand that he was wrong about the issue. He was willing to be corrected, and in the end he glorified the name of Christ all the more, even having his profile changed to say "Christian" (though his account is gone now). This is an odd thread/quote to use to defend against using the name "Christian" because the issue was actually resolved very easily in this case by presenting scripture, and the points Tim made were much more sound than doing a key word search and counting the number of times a word is used (I'll add that I've seen people use that method to claim that you don't need to repent to be saved just because the word isn't used as much as the words "believe" or "faith" in the new testament. It's not a sound method of rightly dividing the truth--you can create false doctrines and make false assumptions by doing that). And no-one was unwelcoming to him here either. They were very amicable to him in their correction and even more-so after everyone came to the same understanding because the "one mind" was restored among brethren.

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. - Philippians 2:1-2

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. - 1 Corinthians 1:10

[Under Duress]

Elissa, are you addressing me? Are you insinuating that we should all be of the same mind, based upon what we call ourselves? If that's true, then let's use the most common identification in the Bible,  as opposed to one ambiguous verse that's commonplace and used by more unbelievers and deceivers than it is of the saints.  Or we could just not make this an issue to be divided over.  I find it very unsettling that I merely explained why I chose "other" and have no problem with others using the term Christian,  and the welcome I get is misused,  out of context false reproof and condemnation for things that I didn't even say.  The welcoming committee needs to brush up on applying the scriptures and walking in the Spirit of Christ rather than exercising  (completely wrong) corrective responses.

Thanks for such a warm welcome. 

I had hoped to find the holy brethren here and maybe fellowship among the saints. 

It'd be great if the main theme wasn't strife of words to no profit

[creationliberty]

Or we could just not make this an issue to be divided over. 
Then, Scott, why do you keep bringing it up? This isn't the first time, and you've only recently joined. If anyone is trying to divide us over this topic, it's you. However, I don't think you're trying to divide as much as you're trying to get everyone here to speak the way you want to speak, instead of having rational discussion over the matter. I don't find you very welcoming to speak with when you flat-out IGNORED what Ellie just said to you.

------------------------
For example you quoted another person in the thread, and expressed your agreement:
The term Brethren is used 229 times after the Gospels but the term Christian is used only one

Ellie responded:
the points Tim made were much more sound than doing a key word search and counting the number of times a word is used (I'll add that I've seen people use that method to claim that you don't need to repent to be saved just because the word isn't used as much as the words "believe" or "faith" in the new testament. It's not a sound method of rightly dividing the truth--you can create false doctrines and make false assumptions by doing that)

You then responded to her by repeating the same thing without addressing her argument:
let's use the most common identification in the Bible
------------------------

This is a pattern we've seen many times before because we've had this forum for many years now. It's someone who comes here and thinks that, from the moment they join, they are going to start changing everything that we say and do, and refuse to actually discuss a matter to reason it out. You are showing this exact same pattern, as well as another dangerous pattern, which is making decisions about what one believes based on counting words from a search engine, rather than understand the philosophy of the doctrine through the interpretation of the context, and that is somewhat expected since you put such a heaven emphasis on you being a "avid student of science," perhaps looking for statistics rather than meaning. (I am unsure yet, but I can only go by what you have shown me so far.)

Now, if that is not accurate analysis of what you are doing, then please, give us something that does not reflect that so we can have a better impression of you. Because the following you wrote, is giving us major warning signs that you are here to start contention, not here to have a peaceful discussion between brethren...

I find it very unsettling that I merely explained why I chose "other" and have no problem with others using the term Christian,  and the welcome I get is misused,  out of context false reproof and condemnation for things that I didn't even say.  The welcoming committee needs to brush up on applying the scriptures and walking in the Spirit of Christ rather than exercising  (completely wrong) corrective responses.
The only thing I'm agreeing with you so far on is that you selected a proper adjective, in that your conversation is probably best described using the word "unsettling." In what way is correction wrong?
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
-Pro 15:10
You have attempted to correct us, so why is it that you're "correction" is right, and our correction is wrong? Ellie gave you reason why your statements were incorrect to Scripture, and you did not give any counter-reason for it; you just repeated the same narrative over and over.

Part of the reason that I believe you haven't gotten much response yet on this forum is because others have seen this attitude in your writing; they usually keep quiet when they sense danger, and wait to read more before commenting further. I was quiet for the same reason, and more evidence is shown by your sarcasm:

Thanks for such a warm welcome.
I had hoped to find the holy brethren here and maybe fellowship among the saints.
This is passive aggressiveness, which is a form of murmuring that God hates. Why do you have this entitled attitude with us? What is it that we did wrong to you for us to deserve that? Murmuring is where you withhold the hatred in your heart, while making snide comments that are designed to try to make others feel bad for daring to question what you believe. That's not the attitude we hold here among our brethren; perhaps you may be used to that with whoever you fellowship with, I don't know, but it's not how we operate here.

If you want us to treat you a certain way, and we are not doing what is right, then by all means, SHOW us a better example.