Author Topic: About Activities with Pagan Origins  (Read 7418 times)

Ramie

  • Newly Registered (Forum LVL 0)
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Ramie
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manila
About Activities with Pagan Origins
« on: August 08, 2021, 02:03:21 AM »
I wanna begin with saying that i agree that Christians really cant just take what is wicked, and repurpose it for God. Which is why us believers ought not to celebrate the widely observed holidays (Valentines, Halloween, Christmas). Afterall, we are told to not learn the way of the Heathens.

Im shocked to find out  that  alot of the stuff we do, ( not just holidays n superstitions) are  not only  pagan in origin , but  were also used for their religious purposes. This makes me question if its acceptable for a christian to Surf (polynesian ),  Painting/Cat-owning (egyptian) ,  Algebra (Babylonian) ,  or perform in Stage Theatre ( Ancient Greek). What really upsetted me was finding out Origami was used in religious ceremonial purposes (i love to fold paper as a hobby, as well as  drawing)

Which brings me here; does something being pagan in origin, make it inherently sinful?

That being said, Despite my initial disappointment, i am ready to give up such evil ways for the Lord when absolutely necessary.

creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • Pillar of the Community (Forum LVL MAX)
  • *
  • Posts: 3806
  • Edification: 459
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Indiana
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 10:28:29 AM »
Right now, I can tell you've reached that point where you have to understand the difference between paganism and liberty. You're probably reading/listening to some people who are going overboard because I've heard some of this before. For example, I had a guy rant and rail on me pretty hard, telling me I'm a devil from hell, because we were taking care of a puppy who was rescued off the street. So if "cat-owning" was pagan, you're essentially having to say that God said, "I have created cats, but if you keep one in your household, I will destroy you." Really?

Another example, there is a huge difference between stretching and yoga. Stretching is something that even animals do because God designed us in a way that we need to stretch out muscles, but yoga is a bunch mysticism nonsense. You can stretch without doing yoga; that is possible, and people have been doing it for thousands of years. If you keep going down the road you're going, you're going to end up getting on your knees to ask forgiveness for stretching your arms when you yawn.

I just wanted to give you that heads up before you keep going. A few years ago, Eric Hovind tried to use an argument on me to defend in pagan worship of Christmas, and I think this will help make it more clear. He said his celebration of Christmas was no different than our use of the words Thursday or Saturday, Thursday being named after the pagan god Thor, and Saturday being named after the pagan god Saturn--this was in effort to accuse me of doing the same thing he was doing to make me into a hypocrite for rebuking him.

The problem with his argument is this: I do not honor Christmas with a celebration and rituals, just like I do not honor Thursday with a celebration and rituals. On the flip side, I did not accuse him of worshiping Thursday because I have no evidence that he honors it with celebration and ritual, but I DO have evidence that he celebrates and ritualizes Christmas.

Just for a clarification of definition:

worship (v): to adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration; to respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence; to honor with extravagant love and extreme submission; as a lover
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Ramie

  • Newly Registered (Forum LVL 0)
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Ramie
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manila
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2021, 08:48:22 PM »
Right now, I can tell you've reached that point where you have to understand the difference between paganism and liberty. You're probably reading/listening to some people who are going overboard because I've heard some of this before. For example, I had a guy rant and rail on me pretty hard, telling me I'm a devil from hell, because we were taking care of a puppy who was rescued off the street. So if "cat-owning" was pagan, you're essentially having to say that God said, "I have created cats, but if you keep one in your household, I will destroy you." Really?

Another example, there is a huge difference between stretching and yoga. Stretching is something that even animals do because God designed us in a way that we need to stretch out muscles, but yoga is a bunch mysticism nonsense. You can stretch without doing yoga; that is possible, and people have been doing it for thousands of years. If you keep going down the road you're going, you're going to end up getting on your knees to ask forgiveness for stretching your arms when you yawn.

I just wanted to give you that heads up before you keep going. A few years ago, Eric Hovind tried to use an argument on me to defend in pagan worship of Christmas, and I think this will help make it more clear. He said his celebration of Christmas was no different than our use of the words Thursday or Saturday, Thursday being named after the pagan god Thor, and Saturday being named after the pagan god Saturn--this was in effort to accuse me of doing the same thing he was doing to make me into a hypocrite for rebuking him.

The problem with his argument is this: I do not honor Christmas with a celebration and rituals, just like I do not honor Thursday with a celebration and rituals. On the flip side, I did not accuse him of worshiping Thursday because I have no evidence that he honors it with celebration and ritual, but I DO have evidence that he celebrates and ritualizes Christmas.

Just for a clarification of definition:

worship (v): to adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration; to respect; to honor; to treat with civil reverence; to honor with extravagant love and extreme submission; as a lover


Hello sir! A bit of late follow up to the question.
Ive been meaning to ask if its a sin for a christian to listen and enjoy  contemporary secular music or nonworship songs. And im not talking about songs that outright promote sin or lewdness-im taking about songs about Romantic love,  friendship, melancholy or adventure/nature.

Ive seen alot of discussion about music and music genre lately (in youtube) and i see alot of people giving out their personal preferences rather than actually basing on scripture.

Theres also this whole discussion about "backbeats" and how it is derived from voodoo rituals , and how it influenced  most modern music genres. Should we stick to Old time Hymns?

 I would also like to clarify that rock/metal/ jazz  is not one of my favorite genres, so im asking this out of genuine curiosity and concern (and not because im actively seeking loopholes to justify wrongdoing, whatsoever)

I would also like to formally thank you for answering my questions, something i never got to do the first time.
Once again, Thank you so much, sir.

creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • Pillar of the Community (Forum LVL MAX)
  • *
  • Posts: 3806
  • Edification: 459
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Indiana
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2021, 10:45:10 PM »
I spent a long time answering that question by writing a book about it, which is available free-to-read on the website.

Christian Music: For The Love of Money
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Ramie

  • Newly Registered (Forum LVL 0)
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Ramie
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manila
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2021, 08:13:44 AM »
I spent a long time answering that question by writing a book about it, which is available free-to-read on the website.

Christian Music: For The Love of Money

Hello Mr Johnson, i just finished reading your book in its entirety, and i must say its a very eye-opening read about the corruptions and problems going on in the Christian music industry.

So many singers traded out the full biblical message of  scripture, for cheap feel-good worship songs that focus on  self achievement/ self empowerment  rather than actually glorifying God. Largely in part because its what sells and top the charts...and  these people had (sadly) made an idol out of earthly fame and fortune. It is therefore no surprise why so many of them end up admitting to be atheists all this time.

I also hate he hypocritical statements by these singers who claim to Love Christ, but actively idolize  and give honor  to people who are vocal haters of God (such as Marilyn Manson, Kurt Cobain, Aleister Crowley).

And i think i finally understand why certain genres are ultimately incompatible for spreading the Word of God, and trying to blend the two styles would ultimately be worthless
( The same way one ought not play a party dance  popsong for a solemn funeral).

Ultimately, the worship songs we must support and listen should line well with doctrine first, before "sounding good" and i truly appreciate the time and effort you make into making it available for us.

That being said, this book still did left me with a couple of  questions i hope to be answered:

Would it be a sin to enjoy listening to  secular /non-worship songs (and by extension , watching movies/reading books) , as long as it doesnt promote sin or  a message that goes against  what the bible teaches?




creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • Pillar of the Community (Forum LVL MAX)
  • *
  • Posts: 3806
  • Edification: 459
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Indiana
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2021, 08:36:39 AM »
I can't answer that question unless you point to a specific sin in the Bible that you are referring to.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Ramie

  • Newly Registered (Forum LVL 0)
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Ramie
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manila
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2021, 08:57:22 AM »
I can't answer that question unless you point to a specific sin in the Bible that you are referring to.

 :o Okay, um, allow me to narrow/clarify... would it be a Sin to enjoy a nonworship song(or any media )as long as it  doesnt:
A) promote lewdness, Hatred, or any other sin
B)has a message that doesnt go against scripture

Like would that be idolatry in anyway? Would that be worldliness ? A waste of time?

creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • Pillar of the Community (Forum LVL MAX)
  • *
  • Posts: 3806
  • Edification: 459
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Indiana
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2021, 12:39:28 PM »
Did you realize you just repeated your last post? The only thing you said differently is that you are asking if it is IDOLATRY specifically to listen to a song. I can't answer your question unless you give me an example.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Rowan M.

  • CLE Church Members
  • Commoner (Forum LVL 3)
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Edification: 63
    • View Profile
    • Isaiah 42:12 Blog
  • First Name: Rowan
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2021, 01:32:36 PM »
A useful "litmus test" for things like music, books and games is found in a couple of verses in 1 Corinthians:

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Corinthians 6:12)

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

The phrase "All things are lawful for me" refers to our liberty in Christ. It's not wrong, in and of itself, to listen to music, read something and so on. The word expedient means useful or profitable. So, when you come across a piece of music you want to listen to, or book you want to read, or suchlike, one thing to ask yourself would be, "Is this useful or profitable"? Am I making wise use of my time with this? Is it of any real benefit to me? Especially spiritual? Then you want to consider whether the thing is addictive. That's what being brought under the power of something means. I've had to give up a lot of games because I was under their power. I have also given up TV programmes because I was either addicted to them or decided that they really weren't expedient (I was feeding my flesh with them, but they were not otherwise useful or profitable and ultimately a waste of time). Rock music is unquestionably addictive (because of the sensual beat in particular). So aside from its evil doctrines, that is one major reason to avoid it. A particularly relevant question concerning music is whether it is edifying. Godly music, like sound preaching, is edifying. Most secular music is not edifying, and most of it is also harmful from a spiritual standpoint. Classical music is not too bad (that's only my opinion though). It doesn't overtly promote anything evil, and it has a focus on melody and harmony, whereas modern rock is all about the beat. So for example, listening to Beethoven's Fifth won't really edify you, because it's not designed to glorify or worship God. But it won't otherwise do you any harm, because there are no lyrics teaching wicked doctrines. So listening to something like that is unlikely to be sinful (but again, that's only my opinion, although I'm trying to judge the matter as Biblically as I can).

Sometimes though, whether something is sinful or not depends on the circumstances. For example, if you listen to a piece of classical music as something in the background while you're doing housework, I see nothing wrong with that. But if you listen to that same piece of music when you should be doing something else (e.g. if you sit down to concentrate on the music and don't do some other task you need to do), then it would be sinful. However, that's maybe digressing a bit too much from your question.

Another important thing is that if you believe something is sin, or you're not sure, it would be better not to do it. Consider this passage:

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:22-23)

So if you find yourself doubting or condemning yourself when you're listening to a piece of music, best to refrain. Hope this has been of some assistance.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17)

Ramie

  • Newly Registered (Forum LVL 0)
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Ramie
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manila
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2021, 06:43:13 PM »
A useful "litmus test" for things like music, books and games is found in a couple of verses in 1 Corinthians:

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Corinthians 6:12)

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

The phrase "All things are lawful for me" refers to our liberty in Christ. It's not wrong, in and of itself, to listen to music, read something and so on. The word expedient means useful or profitable. So, when you come across a piece of music you want to listen to, or book you want to read, or suchlike, one thing to ask yourself would be, "Is this useful or profitable"? Am I making wise use of my time with this? Is it of any real benefit to me? Especially spiritual? Then you want to consider whether the thing is addictive. That's what being brought under the power of something means. I've had to give up a lot of games because I was under their power. I have also given up TV programmes because I was either addicted to them or decided that they really weren't expedient (I was feeding my flesh with them, but they were not otherwise useful or profitable and ultimately a waste of time). Rock music is unquestionably addictive (because of the sensual beat in particular). So aside from its evil doctrines, that is one major reason to avoid it. A particularly relevant question concerning music is whether it is edifying. Godly music, like sound preaching, is edifying. Most secular music is not edifying, and most of it is also harmful from a spiritual standpoint. Classical music is not too bad (that's only my opinion though). It doesn't overtly promote anything evil, and it has a focus on melody and harmony, whereas modern rock is all about the beat. So for example, listening to Beethoven's Fifth won't really edify you, because it's not designed to glorify or worship God. But it won't otherwise do you any harm, because there are no lyrics teaching wicked doctrines. So listening to something like that is unlikely to be sinful (but again, that's only my opinion, although I'm trying to judge the matter as Biblically as I can).

Sometimes though, whether something is sinful or not depends on the circumstances. For example, if you listen to a piece of classical music as something in the background while you're doing housework, I see nothing wrong with that. But if you listen to that same piece of music when you should be doing something else (e.g. if you sit down to concentrate on the music and don't do some other task you need to do), then it would be sinful. However, that's maybe digressing a bit too much from your question.

Another important thing is that if you believe something is sin, or you're not sure, it would be better not to do it. Consider this passage:

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:22-23)

So if you find yourself doubting or condemning yourself when you're listening to a piece of music, best to refrain. Hope this has been of some assistance.

 :'(  Hello again, first up i wanna apologize to Mr. Johnson if ive ever annoyed him with my  response.i didnt quite understood what he meant rhe first time when he meant to give Examples of media. But to answer his question im going to keep it simple and say :
"The Alphabet Song" (A,B,C...) for music, and Snowwhite or films (a disney film with the witch being the villain,not hero)

As for Rowan, thank you for your response because it really hits the nail on the head on my Question. You made good biblical points thatll help me make informed decisions on what media i shall consume  :D

creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • Pillar of the Community (Forum LVL MAX)
  • *
  • Posts: 3806
  • Edification: 459
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Indiana
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2021, 07:37:15 PM »
Quote
Hello again, first up i wanna apologize to Mr. Johnson if ive ever annoyed him with my  response.i didnt quite understood what he meant rhe first time when he meant to give Examples of media. But to answer his question im going to keep it simple and say :
"The Alphabet Song" (A,B,C...) for music, and Snowwhite or films (a disney film with the witch being the villain,not hero)

As for Rowan, thank you for your response because it really hits the nail on the head on my Question. You made good biblical points thatll help me make informed decisions on what media i shall consume

When I said that I cannot answer your questions without more information, it is not to say that I could not answer your question with Scripture as Rowan did, and I'm sure Rowan knew this since I have taught on these subjects before. What I believe Rowan failed to see was that I was trying to get you to understand WHY you were asking this question, which is FAR more important than the answer, and now that he has done that, I have lost the line of questioning I wanted to go down with you to help you understand it.

For example, is it wrong for me to eat eggs benedict? Is it sin if choose to buy an off-brand of paper towels? Have I committed wickedness by stretching my body so I can do the splits? These questions are ENDLESS. If God wanted to create a list of do's and dont's for everything, the Bible would be far more than 10,000 volumes long, and you would never be able to read it all.

By not pointing out any particular sin in your original question, you were, in your mind, creating a sin that did not exist. I wanted you to look into Scripture, or at least, into your mind of what you know of Scripture, to select a particular sin that you thought you might be guilty of doing, and by selecting idolatry, you have now, essentially, associated a spiritual crime with music in general, which is very strange.

So let's get back to the reason you were asking the question, emphasizing a general "sin" that did not exist in Scripture.
Would it be a sin to enjoy listening to secular /non-worship songs (and by extension, watching movies/reading books), as long as it doesnt promote sin or a message that goes against what the bible teaches?

The simple answer to that is that it depends on your reason for listening to it, just as it is wrong to look on a naked woman who is not your wife, unless you're doing it for some justifiable reason, like performing surgery to save her life. The reason I did not answer you in this way is because this is something I believe you already understand, and that's based on the details of your question. (e.g. as long as it doesnt promote sin)

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
-James 4:17


I won't bother to repeat the verses Rowan quoted because you have already read them, however, why were you asking this question? Was it because you believe that if you listen to a bad song you are going to go to hell? I doubt that, otherwise, you likely would not be on this forum because, it is presumed, that you believe in repentance and faith unto salvation in Jesus Christ.

So the only other reason you would ask this question is because you believe something you are listening to is not pleasing to God, which means your REAL question is: "Can I listen to [X] without God being upset with me?"

That is a very different question, but one that, once again, you can already answer because I can tell based on your question. You know it is wrong to create music that has lyrics that goes against what the Bible teaches, and you know that it is wrong to fill your mind with music that promotes sin, otherwise, you would not have added those stipulations into your question. This means that you already know that you are judging what songs you should or should not listen to based on your convictions from the Holy Spirit based on the knowledge He has given you of Scripture, and so that means, in the end, your question was actually pointless because you already answered it.

So my answer to you is that I am not your priest. I am not your dad. I am not here to tell you what you should or should not listen to in your household. You are responsible to God for what you say and do. If I simply answered you in that matter without attempting to get to the heart of what you were asking, you would have thought that I was annoyed with your response, when in fact, I was simply trying to get to provide more information so you could see why you were asking it.

The purpose of this is to, hopefully, show you that, in the future, you don't have to come to us to get list of rules of do's and dont's, like "Is it a sin to list to the alphabet song?" These types of questions are absurd because they are typically thought up by those who are looking for a list of laws/rules to make themselves feel "holy," when in fact, those who have been set an liberty by the Lord Jesus Christ has been freed from the law, only that we ought to study the Word of God so that the Holy Spirit can discipline us individually, because what is right or wrong for me to listen to is not the same as what is right or wrong for you to listen to, and vice versa.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
-Gal 5:13


I hope that was helpful.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Pilgrim Mike

  • Born Again Christians
  • Sojourner (Forum LVL 2)
  • *
  • Posts: 75
  • Edification: 8
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Micheal
  • Belief: Christian
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: About Activities with Pagan Origins
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2021, 01:00:29 PM »
It would probably help for some to stay away from that stuff. I know some things you can't avoid. It's just best to get better every day.