Observer of Times

[Laura]

I am currently reading in Deuteronomy and I find it interesting the number of times God warned the Israelites to not follow after the gods of the people they are driving out of the land He promised them. The importance of this warning is clear as God repeated it many times and gave instructions for breaking down their alters, burning their idols, and killing any Israelite who is found guilty of worshiping these strange gods. However, I need some help understanding the meaning of the phrase "observer of times".

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
-Deuteronomy 18:9-12

My initial thought was this means someone who celebrates the seasons such as the spring equinox (today called Easter), the winter solstice (today called Christmas), etc. The word "time" has at least a dozen definitions in Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary, depending on the context. The second one refers to a season and seemed to make the most sense.

TIME, noun [Latin tempus; tempora, the falls of the head, also tempest, etc. See Tempest. time is primarily equivalent to season; to the Gr.wpa in its original sense, opportunity, occasion, a fall, an event, that which comes.]

1. A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.

Lost time is never found again.

God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. Hebrews 1:1.

2. A proper time; a season.

There is a time to every purpose. Ecclesiastes 3:1.

The time of figs was not yet. Mark 11:13.

Here is the link to all the definitions: http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/time

This phrase also appears in the New Testament.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
-Galatians 4:7-10

This passage sounds like it is referring to the Holy Days the Israelites were commanded to observe in the Old Testament; however, God wasn't telling the Israelites in Deuteronomy not to observe that which He just told them to do. He was telling them not to learn after the ways of the heathen, so in this context it would make sense that "observer of times" is referring to the pagan seasonal celebrations. Please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation.

[Jeanne]

That's an interesting question, Laura. I never really thought too much about it, but I always assumed it had something to do with astrology. Guess I never really paid that much attention to it. There are so many times I will read something over and over in the Bible and just gloss over something I don't quite understand and then forget about it. But it would make sense that this would be connected to that Witch's Wheel (the pagan holidays or Sabbats) Chris mentions his holiday teachings. I tend to think the Jewish holidays would just be added to that list in Galations. But then, there's this in Romans:

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

[Laura]

Jeanne, I know exactly what you mean about glossing over something I don't understand. I've done that many times! I am trying hard to slow my study down to figure out the things that are not quite so obvious (to me anyway). You also bring up a good point about Romans 14. I actually had an encounter with my husband's sister where she rebuked me for something and I went home to study to see if her rebuke was Biblically sound or not, and this was one of the verses I was reading. (I plan on making a separate post about that because I would like to have the guidance of true born again Christians.) I thought this verse was just referring to the day people set aside to worship the Lord (such as Sunday, as is common among Christians, or the Sabbath for the Jews), but I am not sure about that either. Here is Christopher's notes on these verses. Let me know yours thoughts.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
-Romans 14:5

This is not in reference to things like the Catholic creations of Lent, Easter, and/or Christmas, as these were the religious inventions of men after the establishment of the church in the New Testament. Such things involve offenses against the commandments of Christ (i.e. faux [imitation] fasting in Lent to be seen among men - Mat 6:16) and violations of the laws of God. (i.e. witchcraft traditions of Christmas and Easter - Gal 5:19-21) Rather, this is referring to Jewish feasts according to the appointed holidays in the Old Testament, and that one who was weak in the faith would believe that he needed to religiously observe all these days, while another who was strong in the faith knew that Christ had fulfilled these things and did not require such traditions; both are accepted with God so long as they do not sin or violate the commandments of Christ, and so long as they do not attempt to forcefully invoke those traditions on others in the church. As long as there are no violations against Scripture, every Christian should be convinced in his own mind of how he honors the Lord God, and his brethren have no business judging him on the matter.

[Jeanne]

I should have clarified in my last post that the passage in Romans was referring to the Jewish holidays, not the pagan ones. Obviously, no true Christian should have anything to do with those pagan/Catholic/Roman holidays, but neither do those in the Hebrew Roots cult have any business trying to force their views on everyone else, either. The only reason the CLE church group meets on Sunday mornings is because that just happened to be the time that was most convenient for the most people, not because of any significance to Sunday.

[Jeanne]

I forgot to mention that I think Thanksgiving would be a good example of what Romans 14 was referring to. It is a political or national tradition, not a religious one based on any pagan belief system. Therefore, there doesn't seem to be any sin involved in either celebrating it or not celebrating it. (Unless you count the sin of gluttony so often associated with it...    )

[Laura]

Thank you for clarifying, Jeanne. While I never inquired about this, I just assumed Sunday was chosen for CLE meetings because a large majority of people do not have to work, not because it is reverenced above any other day of the week. I too should clarify, I meant Sunday is common for worship among church-goes who call themselves Christians. I have to admit though, if Galatians 4 and Romans 14 are referring to Jewish Holy Days or non-religious holidays like Thanksgiving, it still does not make sense for "observer of times" to be referencing them in the context of Deuteronomy. That's why I was thinking it was warning the Israelites about not taking part in the seasons/holidays of the Witch's Wheel.

I appreciate your comments and discussion. It has given me some things to think about. I have been wondering about holidays like Thanksgiving and I had not even thought about astrology. Perhaps looking into the definition of that might provide a better understanding of the phrase "observer of times".

[Jeanne]

You have to remember that the church in Galatia wasn't just Jews; they were also Greeks (and possibly Romans) who were born gentiles and became Christians, so they would have had a lot of those pagan traditions among them.

[heathertaylor]

I think that Observer of times is referring to those who observe future events by looking to the stars, sun and moon. The way of other Nations (Egyptians being one of them) It's like todays psychics and fortune tellers. Those who read zodiac signs. It is mixed in with divination and witches. It is a serious offense to God, so much so, that if someone noticed someone practicing such things, then they was to bring the matter to the Priests and would have to be 2-3 witnesses and if that person was found guilty then the 2-3 witnesses would be the first to throw the stones at them, then the others would throw them at them as well until the wicked people died. The Nation that the Israelites left was Egypt and the Egyptians practiced these things religiously and God did not want His children doing these abominations in the Land that he was giving them.They was getting ready to come into the Land that God gave them and didn't want any corruptness to enter in to it. He just delivered them out of all that.

Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.


Deuteronomy 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.


The next verse talks about God raising up a prophet.
You know how people are today, they always want to know the future and know what is going to happen so they can be "ready"
They are fearful of death because they are fearful of hell and should be because that is where they are headed but they want to read all these false prophetic things to ease and comfort them from the fear of hell so they turn to witches, wizards, charmers,diviners because they bring comfort to them and deceive them into thinking that they know what the "future" holds for them and people pay a lot of money to know their future. So I think the observer of times is people who look to the stars to foretell the future.

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.


Observer of times is the satan version of Prophet. So I think it means False Prophet

If I am wrong in anything please correct me but this is what I understood of your question about an "observer of times"

[Jeanne]

Heather, you are spot on. That's why I said in my first post that I had always thought it had something to do with astrology. It's always good to study these things out.

[heathertaylor]

As for Galatians 4, I think that this is referring to Keeping the Sabbaths and Holy Days and how they were grievous to man to observe, but after Christ came and died and rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven and is now at the right Hand of the Father interceding on our behalf, then the Holy Spirit came down as Jesus promised and,That Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and then God leads us to repentance by opening our eyes to our wickedness,  then when you come to repentance and God gives you the forgiveness of your sins if you come humbly with a contrite heart, then you'll recieve the Spirit of God written on your hearts and you are born again and are no longer in bondage by these days, months and years. We have Christ. It's not that those things are done away with but fulfilled in Him. To me, everyday is the Sabbath, every day is a Holy Day. I observe Christ in all things, and Christ lives in me an I in him.

Galatians 4:9-11
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.




Please correct me if I said anything that doesn't line up with scripture. I do not want to teach anything against God.

[Laura]

You have to remember that the church in Galatia wasn't just Jews; they were also Greeks (and possibly Romans) who were born gentiles and became Christians, so they would have had a lot of those pagan traditions among them.

Jeanne, thank you for pointing that out. I need to be reminded of these things as I do not have that level of detail committed to memory yet.

I think that Observer of times is referring to those who observe future events by looking to the stars, sun and moon. The way of other Nations (Egyptians being one of them) It's like todays psychics and fortune tellers. Those who read zodiac signs. It is mixed in with divination and witches. It is a serious offense to God, so much so, that if someone noticed someone practicing such things, then they was to bring the matter to the Priests and would have to be 2-3 witnesses and if that person was found guilty then the 2-3 witnesses would be the first to throw the stones at them, then the others would throw them at them as well until the wicked people died. The Nation that the Israelites left was Egypt and the Egyptians practiced these things religiously and God did not want His children doing these abominations in the Land that he was giving them.They was getting ready to come into the Land that God gave them and didn't want any corruptness to enter in to it. He just delivered them out of all that.

Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.


Deuteronomy 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.


The next verse talks about God raising up a prophet.
You know how people are today, they always want to know the future and know what is going to happen so they can be "ready"
They are fearful of death because they are fearful of hell and should be because that is where they are headed but they want to read all these false prophetic things to ease and comfort them from the fear of hell so they turn to witches, wizards, charmers,diviners because they bring comfort to them and deceive them into thinking that they know what the "future" holds for them and people pay a lot of money to know their future. So I think the observer of times is people who look to the stars to foretell the future.

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.


Observer of times is the satan version of Prophet. So I think it means False Prophet

If I am wrong in anything please correct me but this is what I understood of your question about an "observer of times"

Heather, that makes sense. I failed to look at the entire context with the verses about future prophets. It sounds like those who use divination, or an observer to times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer -Deuteronomy 18:10-11 or astrology, or tarot cards, or look to signs or times to foretell future events, or false prophets are all referring to the same thing and God was just listing out all the different names these practices were known by in the different nations to warn the Israelites against the ways of all those they will encounter.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this phrase. I hope to one day have as much understanding as you ladies. I will keep studying and praying. It's amazing how God gives us a desire to read His Word and have our understanding opened!

As for Galatians 4, I think that this is referring to Keeping the Sabbaths and Holy Days and how they were grievous to man to observe, but after Christ came and died and rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven and is now at the right Hand of the Father interceding on our behalf, then the Holy Spirit came down as Jesus promised and,That Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and then God leads us to repentance by opening our eyes to our wickedness,  then when you come to repentance and God gives you the forgiveness of your sins if you come humbly with a contrite heart, then you'll recieve the Spirit of God written on your hearts and you are born again and are no longer in bondage by these days, months and years. We have Christ. It's not that those things are done away with but fulfilled in Him. To me, everyday is the Sabbath, every day is a Holy Day. I observe Christ in all things, and Christ lives in me an I in him.

Galatians 4:9-11
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.




Please correct me if I said anything that doesn't line up with scripture. I do not want to teach anything against God.

Yes, this too was my understanding of Galatians 4. You expressed it better than I did. I will still make a separate post about this topic and the encounter I had with my husband's sister. I think your comment answers to that as well.

[creationliberty]

I appreciate your comments and discussion. It has given me some things to think about. I have been wondering about holidays like Thanksgiving and I had not even thought about astrology. Perhaps looking into the definition of that might provide a better understanding of the phrase "observer of times".

The problem with Christmas is that it is based on the solstice, meaning the position of the sun, as you are probably already aware. Thanksgiving is not based on solar or lunar cycles, nor does it have to do with anything concerning the pattern of the stars (or anything else having to do with the worship of the elements), which means it is not attached to any particular pagan ritual.

There are a few people in our church I have had to rebuke for trying to do what I call "creating a list of rules," meaning that they were trying to say within themselves, "Here is a list of do's and don't's for Christians," but we simply need to look at the philosophical concept and use discernment. The fulfillment of the law and prophets is to flee from idolatry of any kind, which means we ought not to learn the ways of the heathen, but if we have learned them in the past, then it is important to gain understanding and depart from them.

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
-1Co 10:14

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
-Jer 10:2

[Laura]

Christopher, yes you are correct, I am aware that Christmas is tied to pagan sun worship and Thanksgiving is not. Thank you for pointing out the differences and the reminder that we should examine all that we do to make sure we are not going against The Lord in any of our ways. From what I know, the premise of Thanksgiving is not offensive to God, but I have not studied it in depth like I have the holidays that are tied to solar/lunar cycles. I just re-read an old thread on this topic but I will consider opening up a new discussion in the future.