Messages

1

General Discussion / The fruit of the Spirit

« on: March 04, 2023, 07:09:15 PM »

According to God’s Word, this is the fruit that should be evident in the lives of Christians:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:22-23.

However, here is some (not all) of the fruit that I and others have seen, heard, read and/or experienced from the CLE church:

Manipulation. Control. Deception. Lies. Slander. Aggression. Rudeness. Harshness/nastiness/viciousness. Ambushing. Moving goalposts. Creating unnecessary drama/issues. Twisting/editing/misinterpreting/adding to what people have said. Unrighteously judging people without sufficient evidence/context/understanding. Using (multiple) deceptive and distractive techniques that completely avoid discussing the central points of an issue/topic, etc.

Additionally, there is the fruit of accepting, justifying and normalizing ungodly behaviours such as these as if they are somehow good and righteous.

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20.

To those of you who have the Holy Spirit, I urge you to take note of every time you see incongruence between words and behaviour in this church. At some point you need to be honest before God and acknowledge that there is complete disagreement between some of the behaviour that is regularly displayed by some people in this church and the behaviour that is expected of Christians in the Holy Bible. And, as such unrighteous behaviour is clearly not of the Holy Spirit, at some point you may want to question what spirit is really at work within this church.

To those of you in this church who are true Christians, I urge you to repent before God for any and all times that you have willingly and deliberately chosen to ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit as He has tried to warn you about the ungodly behaviour in this church: any and every time you have seared your conscience and ignored the lack of peace that you’ve felt when you’ve seen and heard things that are not of Christ—any and every time you’ve chosen to close your eyes and ears and ignore all the many signs and red flags that are right in front of you—any and every time you have chosen unrighteous compliance, complacency, comfort and/or passivity over righteousness, truth, correction and rebuke—any and every time you have put the reasoning, perspective and words of men above the Word of God—any and every time you have chosen to justify and rationalize ungodly behaviour, and make excuses for people who are bearing ungodly fruit.

I urge you to go to the Lord God in deep repentance and ask for His forgiveness for any and every time you have actively or passively been in agreement with any of the wicked and unrighteous words/actions that have been spoken/written/done by this church.

I pray the Lord is kind and merciful to you and gives you the grace and humility to acknowledge and confront the wicked and unrighteous behaviour that you have been actively or passively in agreement with, and/or partaking in, and/or condoning as acceptable.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9.

Good bye.

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General Discussion / Biblical Cosmology

« on: January 05, 2023, 02:29:17 AM »

Introduction

I’m writing this post as a follow-up to the discussion that we had a little while ago about Biblical cosmology, as I was asked to provide some scriptures on this subject during the conversation. I hope that this post provides some good foundational scriptures for you. Please note that I’m continuing to use the term “Biblical cosmology” to refer to the cosmology described in the Bible in order to clearly differentiate it from the cosmology proposed by the heliocentric model.

During our discussion, I also said that I would provide a visual representation of the Biblical cosmology model. I think this is important so that people can get a basic understanding of what the Bible describes, as many Christians today have been taught to apply the heliocentric model to Biblical text rather than to study the subject of cosmology directly from scripture. (I think it is relevant to note here that although the heliocentric model can be imposed onto the Bible, it simply is not described in the Bible.)

Additionally, I think it’s important to look at models that illustrate Biblical cosmology to clarify that the Bible does not describe any of the foolish “flat earth” models that can be found on the Internet.

I have, therefore, attached a document which shows some of the models that people have created in an attempt to represent the cosmology that is described in the Bible. These images, along with others, can be found by doing a simple search on the Internet for “Biblical Cosmology” or “Hebrew Cosmology” etc. (There is also information online which shows that some pagan cultures also originally believed in a flat and enclosed earth. I am not in any way advocating that we Christians should source our truth from pagan cultures; however, I do think it’s noteworthy when we see threads of commonality running through different cultures—a good example is the fact that many cultures acknowledge in their history and/or mythology that there has been some kind of great flood similar to the world-wide flood of Genesis.)

There are some significant differences between the cosmology described in the Bible and the cosmology proposed by the heliocentric model. They are, in fact, decidedly opposite systems in many ways. However, one significant difference that is of particular importance for the Christian is that Biblical cosmology clearly identifies the location of heaven. This is of great relevance when cosmology is studied from a scriptural perspective.


Some thoughts about the use of language (and some initial cosmology scriptures)

Applying the principle identified in Isaiah 28:10 is very relevant for the study of Biblical cosmology as the subject is described throughout the Bible, albeit sometimes more directly and sometimes more subtly.

“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:” Isaiah 28:10

It is correct that Christians who believe in Biblical cosmology generally take scriptures about creation more literally. This is because creation is generally a physical, material, concrete reality which we experience with all of our senses. Though language can be used poetically, it remains natural and logical to describe and understand real and concrete things in real and concrete ways, i.e., literally.

It is also necessary to acknowledge that poetic language is used throughout the Bible, such as through the use of similes and metaphors etc. This does not, however, mean that truth is not being revealed when this language is employed. Contrarily, such language often reveals truth through ideas and images that speak to our hearts and minds with an expressiveness, salience, simplicity, and/or depth etc. that cannot always be accomplished with the limitations of literal wording. Truth can be communicated through the use of both literal and figurative language.

So, as an example, (focussing on just one aspect of the scripture) here is how someone who believes in Biblical cosmology would likely interpret this first part of Isaiah 40:22, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;”

Firstly, the language structure of the first part of the verse, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,” can be read as a literal statement about the Lord’s physical location in relation to the earth—there is nothing in the language to suggest we should be reading this figuratively. Applying Isaiah 28:10, this verse correlates well with other scriptures in the Bible which similarly describe the physical location of God, the throne of God, and heaven as being directly above the earth.

Secondly, the second part of the verse, "and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;” uses the figurative language of a simile to add further detail. Putting the whole sentence together it can be understood that not only does the Lord sit physically above the earth, but He is also in close physical proximity to its inhabitants, who are “as grasshoppers” to Him. The Lord dwells above and close to all the people of the earth. Though both literal and figurative language have been used together, there is no contradiction in meaning, but rather understanding has been enhanced through the use of both types of language.

Furthermore, it is possible to find a figurative and literal meaning from a scripture at the same time, without contradiction. As a simple example, the words “under the sun” are found 27 times in the book of Ecclesiastes. This expression is naturally read figuratively as a simple phrase which means “in the world” or “on earth”. However, it is also possible to find literal truth in these words, i.e., the phrase acknowledges in a natural way the reality that the earth is physically located under the sun. (It would be logical that the figurative expression derived from the literal meaning, i.e., that the literal understanding came before the figurative expression was developed.) I understand that some people would argue that it just appears that the earth is located under the sun from our perspective on earth; however, when applying the principle of Isaiah 28:10, it is logical to take the words “under the sun” as a plain and simple acknowledgment that the earth is physically located under the sun because this interpretation correlates perfectly with other cosmology scriptures throughout the Bible.

Additionally, sometimes looking at words from a literal perspective can add further light to their meaning. For example, Christians who believe in Biblical cosmology can understand that the title of God as the “Most High” has the capacity to be understood literally. Of course, this title can be understood in the sense that the Lord God is the Most High in every way possible—He is above all of His creation, at all times, in all places, and in all ways. However, it can also be understood in a literal sense, as a study of scripture shows that the Lord God dwells as the Most High above His creation: the heaven where the Lord God resides is physically located above the sun, moon, stars, earth, and everything under the earth. Other than there being questions about the exact location of “ye waters that be above the heavens” (Psalm 148:4), the Bible describes the heaven where the Lord dwells as the highest part of His creation.

Ultimately, as Christians I believe we should prayerfully ask the Lord God Himself how literally and/or figuratively we should be interpreting scriptures about this subject, rather than making assumptions about interpretation based on our own pre-conceived ideas of cosmology, our scientific understanding, or any personal discomfort that may arise from having our worldview challenged.


Some foundational scriptures

As you can see from the Biblical cosmology pictures that I have attached, the term “flat earth” is quite a reductive description because the Bible describes a flat, stationary, and enclosed earth. Additionally, the Bible describes creation as having three basic tiers: heaven, earth and under the earth. I put the below scriptures in a previous post on the forum, but I am reposting them here as I believe they lay the best scriptural foundation to start studying this subject:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” Exodus 20:4

“Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:” Deuteronomy 5:8

“Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” Psalm 135:6

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” Philippians 2:10

“And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” Revelation 5:3

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13


Some descriptions from the Bible

Below are some scriptures which—if we take them literally as real and true descriptions—make natural, understandable, logical, uncomplicated, and consistent sense on a flat, stationary, enclosed earth which is part of the three-tiered system described in the Bible.

(You may want to pray about whether these same scriptures make natural, understandable, logical, uncomplicated and/or consistent sense if we live on a globe earth which is spinning on an axial tilt as it orbits around the sun travelling at high-speed through space.)

The Tower of Babel
“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.” Genesis 11:4-7

Jacob’s Ladder
“And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.” Genesis 28:10-12

Ezekiel’s Vision
“Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.” Ezekiel 1:1

“When those went these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.
And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.” Ezekiel 1:21-26

Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
“Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:” Daniel 4:10-11

The Temptation of Christ
“Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” Matthew 4:8-10

“And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” Luke 4:5-8

The Baptism of Jesus
“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:” Matthew 3:16

“And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:” Mark 1:10

“And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.” John 1:32

The Ascension of Christ
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

The Stoning of Stephen
“When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Acts 7:54-56

Peter’s Trance
“And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.” Acts 10:10-12

The Return of Christ
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29-30

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” Mark 13:24-26

“And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.” Isaiah 34:4

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:” Revelation 6:13-16

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” 2 Peter 3:10-12

New Jerusalem
“And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,” Revelation 21:10


Concluding thoughts

There are various aspects of Biblical cosmology that can be studied in further detail, such as: the heavens; the sun, moon and stars; the firmament and the waters above; the face, shape and ends of the earth; the foundations of the earth; and the non-movement of the earth, etc.

At this point I’d like to note that due to the nature of this subject, i.e., because we have all received repeated and ongoing messaging about the heliocentric model from most parts of our society since we were young, I understand that it can be quite challenging for some people to question the globe earth model without discomfort, both intellectually and emotionally. Because of this, I believe it is particularly important that we try to put away everything we think we know about this subject, and humbly and prayerfully ask the Lord God to reveal His truth as we study His Word with an open heart and mind.

I hope the above scriptures provide a good foundation for people to study this subject, and I thank you for the opportunity to present this information to you. My apologies for the delay in preparing this information and thank you for your patience.

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Bible Discussion / Re: Evil Spirits & Souls Passing Through Water

« on: October 18, 2022, 03:48:05 AM »

Sorry, that's probably got a bit off-topic. If people want to debate or discuss cosmology a little more, it would probably be better to start a separate thread. But since Anna brought it up, and Joshua also addressed it, I found myself wanting to share a few thoughts of my own on this subject.

My apologies, I didn’t mean for my post to detract from Kevin’s original topic, I was just wanting to give my thoughts about the conversation Kevin and Joshua had about Exodus 20:4. I agree that if people want to discuss Biblical cosmology further then it should be done on a separate thread. Very sorry, Kevin!

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Bible Discussion / Re: Evil Spirits & Souls Passing Through Water

« on: October 17, 2022, 02:47:16 AM »

Very intriguing! I have always found the reference to water in the second of the ten commandments unexpected. (Pretty sure it's talking about the sea, right?)

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" - Exodus 20:4

As I understand it, graven images are forbidden for spiritual entities. So making no graven images of things 'in the water under the earth' seems to indicate there are spiritual entities there.
Thinking about this is gonna increase my fear of the ocean; it's not nearly as boring as I once thought. Very vast and mysterious.

Thanks for that Joshua.  That is interesting.  There is likely/possibly also a very large body of water that is under the crust of the earth.  When the evil spirits in the swine didn't want to be sent in to the deep, I'm still not sure if they meant the deep water or deep in to the earth.  By that I don't mean in to water deep in the earth.

Hi Kevin, Joshua,

I do think the subject of the sea in the Bible makes for a fascinating study.

Regarding Exodus 20:4, I don’t know about any deeper spiritual meaning, but in the natural sense I believe the Lord is giving a description of the realms that He created—you may have noticed that this pattern of language is found in different places of the Bible, often with a slightly different description or detail added. For example:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” Exodus 20:4.

“Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:” Deuteronomy 5:8.

“Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” Psalm 135:6.

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” Philippians 2:10.

“And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” Revelation 5:3.

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13.

As to what and where the “water under the earth” is … I think that’s probably a little easier to try to understand for Christians like myself who believe that the Bible describes a flat and stationary earth … but as I know that’s not a particularly appreciated topic on this forum I will respectfully say no more about that now  .

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: July 17, 2022, 04:38:32 AM »

Hi Anna. I really should have mentioned this before but now that you say this--I thought I should let you know that Tim taught me how to do the PDF's the way that he used to do them and I have been working on some (so far Psychology and Jehovah's witnesses). I didn't necessarily want to say anything about it--I simply wanted to just pick up and work on them since you asked Chris for some and I saw that others here also like having them. And since I currently have the free time to do it and since it was easy for Tim to teach me the way he did them previously, I thought it would be good to work on them and keep using the format he used so that they have a consistent look to them.

But I thought I should say something now because I don't know what you intend on doing at this point with converting the PDF's--since you said you were working on one now I'm not sure whether you intend to continue doing them or if it was just this one to see how it goes. And the reason I mention that is because if we both do them then it would probably be good to make sure we don't accidentally do the same ones. But this is all volunteer-based, so don't let me saying this make you feel obligated whatsoever to go either direction, and I don't want this to rush you in making a decision either. I'm just saying this because if by chance you do want to, then maybe let me know at some point since I intend on doing more, but if not--just carry on and don't worry about it.

Hi Ellie, good on you for doing that, and thanks for letting me know. I had started doing the JW one, so I will now leave that to you. I appreciate that it would be good to keep the formatting consistent.

Christopher, I appreciate that you never asked me to do anything with this, but as I said that I would, are you okay to release me from my word now that Ellie has confirmed she is doing this?

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: July 11, 2022, 03:30:22 AM »

Meta data cleaners can generally be used for taking your name and any other information you want from files if you wish.  The same goes for sound files and photographs etc.

Hi Kevin, thanks for that. I’ve thought of a workaround which may or may not work.

Christopher, I said I’d get back to you about this. I’m working on one of the teachings now and will let you know when it’s done.

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: June 24, 2022, 09:41:43 PM »

When putting some of the files on to the eReader it shows Tim as being the author.  It must pick up the name from who the PDF creation software is registered to.  I was going to mention that in the past but figured you might have known about it or it was of no concern.

Thanks for that information, Kevin. I didn't know about that, and it's good to be aware of.

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: June 23, 2022, 10:08:00 PM »

A lot of that work came from Tim. He used to do them for me back when my articles were shorter, but now that they're much longer, and I do frequent small updates, on top of the fact that he got married and had less time, I haven't had any new ones available in years.

Good to know, thanks Christopher.

I’ll have a play around—if I can properly convert some articles to PDF for you I’ll let you know.

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: June 22, 2022, 02:26:09 AM »

I saved the page as an HTML Anna and then opened the HTML file with the word processor and exported from there as a PDF and it makes a very good job of it.  You might find it to be quite OK for listening.  Doing the conversions took me less than a minute, so not a lot of time wasted if it's not suitable.

Thanks Kevin—it was thoughtful of you to put up that tip .

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: June 20, 2022, 02:47:45 AM »

You're asking me for something that I can't do. Furthermore, for those who can do it, it is FAR more work than I think you understand, which why I think you just asked so casually for it.

Thanks for all the tips, everyone. (And Jeanne, I like to use the ‘Read Aloud’ function on webpages and in Word/PDF documents as I often prefer to listen to things rather than to read them—it also makes it easy to do tasks around the home at the same time .)

My apologies for my naivety—I regularly save Word documents to PDF and it’s a really quick and simple process. Saying that, the files I save are usually quite small in size. It seems I wrongly assumed that this was a simple task, so my apologies for that. Also, I see that there are quite a few articles/books with the PDF option on the website, so I thought it was generally the norm to have this available.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying how things work and for the suggestions.

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: June 18, 2022, 11:24:38 PM »

This is a full-length book that is free-to-read on our website:
Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

Hi Christopher

I just wonder if you could please upload a copy of this teaching—as well as the Jehovah’s Witness and Mormonism teachings—in PDF format on your website?

(I appreciate that you are busy, so there’s no hurry from my side.)

Thanks, Anna

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 30, 2022, 03:27:41 AM »

Once I had heard the gospel message there were many times I had sat and spent time with God pouring out my heart about how sorry I was for all of the wrong I had done in my life and thanking him for Jesus Christ  dying on the cross to pay the penalty for my wrong doing.  I truly was of a contrite spirit.

... My conversion certainly wasn't just an intellectual experience but rather a deep intimate experience with God / Jesus Christ.

Hi Kevin

Thanks for your reply. What you’ve written here adds more clarity and depth to your testimony—and in essence, answers the questions I was asking—so thank you for that.

I’m sorry if my posts caused you any unnecessary upset. As I have said, I genuinely wasn’t trying to be contentious. However, though I may be wrong, I suspect/guess that if you had written your testimony as a new person—without anyone knowing you—that others may have stepped in and asked you to clarify a few things. I can understand if the people who know you didn't feel the need to ask you more questions; however, there are a good number of people who engage with this forum who don’t know you, and out of charity to them I think it was important to address this.

Anyway, thanks again for providing more (and heartfelt) detail, Kevin .

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 24, 2022, 06:23:31 PM »

I'm sorry, I'm getting lost in the shuffle here. I didn't have the problem that Anna and Rowan are having, so I wonder if they could be SUMMARIZE what their contention is? (i.e. put it in as few words as possible, so I can understand it)

Also, has anyone else had issue with Kevin's testimony that they would like to raise? If anyone else is seeing what Rowan and Anna are seeing, please speak up and help explain it.

I am not seeing what you guys are seeing. Maybe it's because I've known Kevin longer; that might be the issue. I don't know. I briefly reviewed things he had written this morning, and my conclusion is that either I'm blind to a problem, or others have misunderstood something. I can't tell yet.

Hi Christopher

In simplicity, I just think Kevin needs to identify/clarify when he was born again.

I do appreciate that I don’t have a long relational history with Kevin, so there may be salient information about his life and faith that I’m not aware of.

However, as someone with the ‘fresh eyes’ of not knowing him, based solely on the information that he has provided in his story, I don’t see any evidence that he is born again.

I see the workshop experience as an important step in the process of him finding God. However, in and of itself, being convicted of sin against God, or having a repentant heart, doesn’t make someone born again.

And years later, when he heard the proper gospel message, it sounds very much like he just gave intellectual consent to the message, which doesn’t make someone born again either.

Both Rowan and I have asked Kevin for the details of when he actually became born again (in three separate posts) and this question has never been answered.

Kevin may well be born again—and I hope that he is. It’s just that he didn’t actually mention when this happened in his story, and he hasn’t clarified it since.

I think this is an essential part of his story for him to clarify, not only for himself, but also for the many people who engage with this forum. As it stands, I believe his current testimony—without additional information provided—could cause confusion to unsaved people about what it means to be born again.

14

Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 23, 2022, 05:44:05 PM »

In my previous post I mentioned that I chose to “surrender” to Jesus. I think the more Biblical way of wording this is that I came to “call upon” the Lord. I called out for Him. I cried out to Him. I wanted Him. I was yearning and longing for Him from the depth of my being. I didn’t want to live my life any longer without Him.
 
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).
 
So, if I may re-word my question using more Biblical language, I wonder if you’d like to share when you called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Himself?

For doctrinal clarity, I thought it best to add this brief postscript to my above message.

In hindsight, I think it would have been more edifying if my third paragraph had been written more succinctly. I believe this would have been better wording:

“In my previous post I mentioned that I chose to “surrender” to Jesus. I think the more Biblical way of wording this is that I came to “call upon” the Lord with a heart of faith and repentance. I called out for Him. I cried out to Him.”

(The above correction also removes the unnecessary focus on my own personal experience, which, because of how I worded it, could have potentially distracted people from the essential doctrine that needs to be discussed. My apologies for this.)

Additionally, I think it would have been better for me to have added a second question at the end, for clarity. I believe this would have been better wording:

"... I wonder if you’d like to share when you called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Himself? When did you take your heart of faith and repentance directly to the Lord Jesus?"

These may appear to be minor changes, but I think they are needed to avoid unnecessary confusion.

15

Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 23, 2022, 05:23:29 AM »

I'm also a little bit puzzled by your eventual conversion experience. You say that you got "the major" of the Gospel message (meaning all the key doctrines) and essentially became a believer "just like that". The way you have phrased it ("That's it, I was a believer"), it sounds like you just gave some sort of intellectual consent to the message being preached. Surely there was some humbling of yourself before God in that moment? Surely there was some confessing of sin, crying out for mercy, something occurring from the heart and not just the mind? For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10) Could you please describe that conversion moment in a bit more detail?

As Rowan alluded to above, I’d really like to hear about your relational encounter with Jesus Himself – when you took your heart of faith and repentance directly to the Lord – because this is the one thing that you didn’t mention in your story. More than anything, this was the part of your story that I was looking forward to hearing about the most .

I’m curious about when and how this happened for you? Was this shortly after you’d heard the proper gospel message? I understand it happens at different times and in different ways for people. Anyway, that’s always the most important and interesting part of a person’s salvation story, so it would be good to hear that, if you’d like to share it.

My initial repentance was when God first made me grieved over wrongful doing.  That is actually the situation the Jews would have been in too when Jesus was telling them to repent but they didn't necessarily know who he was and to them they only had the God of the Old Covenant to look upon, but they still had it within them to repent, otherwise they wouldn't have been told to.  Later, yes I was grieved just as I should have been when I learned of the gospel message.  It's very straight forward, it's just one building upon the other.

Thanks for your reply, Kevin.
 
You may not realise it, but you didn’t actually answer the question that Rowan and I both asked . Apologies if there is something missing in my own understanding, but I found your answer to be quite vague and it didn’t clarify anything for me.
 
I’m genuinely not trying to be contentious; I just think that the experience of when you became born again is an important thing to clarify.
 
In my previous post I mentioned that I chose to “surrender” to Jesus. I think the more Biblical way of wording this is that I came to “call upon” the Lord. I called out for Him. I cried out to Him. I wanted Him. I was yearning and longing for Him from the depth of my being. I didn’t want to live my life any longer without Him.
 
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).
 
So, if I may re-word my question using more Biblical language, I wonder if you’d like to share when you called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Himself?
 
Again, I’d like to stress that I don’t want to cause any contention. I just think it would be beneficial for everyone if you clarified this part of your story .

16

Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 23, 2022, 03:28:21 AM »

(My apologies, I posted a reply to the above message but realised that I did the quote formatting incorrectly. I will repost my reply shortly.)

17

Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 17, 2022, 05:44:12 PM »

Although I have been a member of Creation Liberty Evangelism Church for quite a number of years, I haven’t so far submitted my formal testimony of how I came to Christ and so I thought it was about time that I should do that.  My apologies to all for taking so long. 

Hi Kevin

It was good to hear your story – thanks for sharing it. I know how vulnerable I felt after I had posted my own story on the forum, so I appreciate you sharing yours.

Your experience in the workshop was a good reminder for me about the omnipotence of God. I know from my own personal experience that God can and does clearly speak to people who don’t know Him. I think it’s encouraging for Christians to hear that type of story, especially when we are praying for the salvation of the people we love. It’s good to remember that God can speak to anyone, in anyway, at any time, as He chooses.

“Is any thing too hard for the LORD?” (Genesis 18:14).

In some ways, I could relate well to your story because, like you, God gave me the two essential ‘ingredients’ for being born again at separate times, i.e., an understanding of the salvation work of Christ and the necessary heart of repentance.

I probably had both ‘ingredients’ inside me for a good while, but it took some time for me to be ready to ‘mix them together’. It wasn’t until I decided to surrender my life to the Lord Jesus – which happened in an intimate relational encounter directly with Him – that these two ingredients of faith and repentance came together naturally. This is when I received the Holy Spirit and became born again.

As Rowan alluded to above, I’d really like to hear about your relational encounter with Jesus Himself – when you took your heart of faith and repentance directly to the Lord – because this is the one thing that you didn’t mention in your story. More than anything, this was the part of your story that I was looking forward to hearing about the most .

I’m curious about when and how this happened for you? Was this shortly after you’d heard the proper gospel message? I understand it happens at different times and in different ways for people. Anyway, that’s always the most important and interesting part of a person’s salvation story, so it would be good to hear that, if you’d like to share it.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your story, Kevin. (And I hope you aren’t in too much pain!)

18

Bible Discussion / Re: When God Slew Uzzah

« on: March 13, 2022, 01:25:47 AM »

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself Anna.  We all make mistakes and I've sure made my fair share.  Some of my mistakes often makes me think that all of the others must think I'm a complete idiot and for me it has usually been because I didn't go back and read something again.  It is good that others pick up on errors and correct them and it makes for a good discussion.  You're amongst friends here so no-one is going to think the worst of you and we have all made mistakes and posted things we later regretted. 
The forum here is the only time I have been on a forum too and it does take some getting used to.

Hi anvilhauler, thanks for your gracious and encouraging message – it's appreciated.

19

Bible Discussion / Re: When God Slew Uzzah

« on: March 04, 2022, 07:16:02 PM »

I find this theory very plausible. While the Bible doesn't tell us the attitude of the others towards Uzzah, it does seem fairly likely that they would have been esteeming him quite highly for the work he was doing, and he may well have enjoyed that and got puffed up in pride, just as some modern professing Christians enjoy the praise they get for certain services they might do. However, we should be a bit careful with speculating on things the Bible is silent about. That said, when you consider Uzzah's actions in light of what the Word of God says about the fear of God (and also lack thereof), it does seem highly likely that he did indeed lack a proper fear of God. As I say, I hadn't really given any thought to Uzzah's own spiritual condition, so once again, thank you for introducing it into the conversation. I'm really glad to have that angle added in.

Thanks for your feedback, Rowan. Actually, I had wanted to edit/delete my post after I’d put it up, but I didn’t do it within the allocated time.

As our words are so important to God – and all the more when talking about His word – after I’d posted this, I felt the uncomfortable weight of having written something permanently online that I was not pleased with. I hope to be more careful when posting anything in future.

I’m not used to writing on online forums, and this is a new experience for me. To be honest, it’s quite outside my comfort zone and I’m generally quite nervous about posting things. It is a serious thing to talk about the things of the Lord.

I agree that “we should be a bit careful with speculating on things the Bible is silent about” which is one of the discomforts I had about my post. (There were other things I was not happy about, but I won’t go into those here.) I did deliberately use the words “I wonder”, and maybe the post can be best summarised as me just wondering a few things. But, in this instance, I would have preferred to have kept my wonderings to myself! I hope that I haven’t led anyone astray with any of my thinking.

Anyway, thank you for your insight, and for taking the time and effort to reply to me, Rowan.

20

General Discussion / Re: Charles Spurgeon and occultism

« on: February 26, 2022, 09:33:04 PM »

Being clear, precise, careful and sober are all really good things to aim for when talking about the things of God, and the main purpose should indeed be simple Godly edification. I agree that over time, the Holy Spirit helps us with the way we communicate.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. (Ephesians 4:29)

Thanks again for highlighting this key difference between Spurgeon's writings and the more sober kind of writing we should be aiming for. I really appreciated your insights here, and I think the Lord used them for the reflections and self-examination that I have talked about in this post.

I appreciate your personal reflections and insights, Rowan. As Christians, I think that it’s important for us to deliberately think and pray about the words we use.

In conclusion to what I said above, I think the worldly culture around us generally applauds speech that is flamboyant, dramatic, embellished, and exaggerated. But from my experience, lies and deception are often embedded within – or are never far behind – the use of this type of language.

Thanks again for your edifying thoughts.