Messages

1

General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 14, 2020, 02:42:08 PM »

Okay, so what Barry is doing here is teaching false doctrine because he believes that the work of water baptism saves people. He does not want to say that directly, but his doctrine reflects that, and his testimony indicates that as well. That is why he is deceptive: Barry is not coming forward to talk about his true beliefs.

I don't understand why you keep saying that I'm being deceptive. Is it because I haven't said the man-made term 'works-based doctrine'?
I have already stated my true beliefs.

One must do everything listed in the scriptures to be saved.
Hear the word, believe the word, repent of sins, confess Jesus is Christ, be immersed(baptismo) in water, and be faithful unto death.

Furthermore, I believe I was saved by repentance, confession, and baptism. I did feel deep, deep sorrow for my sins before I was baptized. And I feel that deep sorrow every first day of the week when I assemble with the saints to remember the Lord's death on the cross.

I thought that I made it pretty clear, but I will say it directly: I believe that the work of water baptism saves people.
Do you want me to expand on anything? I will gladly do so.

I already responded to that and proved to him what he said was incorrect

You haven't proved anything. You posited an argument, and I refuted it, then you claim that you already proved your argument. I will address this later in this reply when I discuss the "No False Scotsman" fallacy.

When a man ignores what is being said to him, and he repeats himself as a response without acknowledging what the other person is saying, then you have run into a situation in which that man will no longer hear.

Well said!

Thank you for finally addressing my logic.

Of course, most of you are not going to understand any of that, which is how he is doing sleight-of-hand to fool the people he is talking to.

I tried to make it very simple so that most people could understand it. You claim this is the logical fallacy of "False Equivalence". That is not true.
Using your example of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, and applying my logic to it, the resulting conclusion would then be that Adolf Hitler has the same propensity to kill as Joseph Stalin. Right? Let me break it down for you so I don't get falsely accused of slight-of-hand.
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is Adolf Hitler
B is Joseph Stalin
C is being responsible for killing millions of people
Result:
if Adolf Hitler is responsible for killing millions of people,
and Joseph Stalin is responsible for killing millions of people,
then Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin have the same propensity to kill.

Now let's go the other way. Using my example of baptism and salvation, and applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence, a resulting conclusion would then be that doing anything commanded by Jesus will add you to the body of Christ.
After all, they both have similar characteristics, because being baptized was commanded by Jesus and being saved was commanded by Jesus.
This is a "False Equivalence" logical fallacy, but that erroneous conclusion is definitely not my argument.

To put it another way, Jesus told us that the world would hate us, and eventually, in the days of Revelation, we will be beheaded for Christ. (Rev 20:4) If we follow Barry's so-called "logic," since Christians will be beheaded for Christ, that means that all people who have been beheaded are automatically born again in Christ, and such an argument is absurd to say the least.

I agree this is an absurd argument. However, it is not even remotely applicable to my example. Being beheaded for Christ may be a result of being born again in Christ. What matters most is how one is born again in Christ.

It is important to note a key word in Barry's supposedly "logical" argument, and that is his use of the word 'IF.'

Maybe my format was confusing. I program microcomputers with logical statements, so I think in IF, THEN, AND, OR terms. I like how you formatted the "False Equivalence" example, so I will do likewise:

• Those who were baptized were added to the body of Christ
• Those who were saved were added to the body of Christ
• Therefore, being baptized is the same as being saved

In furtherance of my point, one could also say

• Those who believed were added to the body of Christ

and

• Those who repented were added to the body of Christ

and

• Those who called on the name of the Lord were added to the body of Christ

And I would wholeheartedly agree!
These are not mutually exclusive though. Being saved requires all of these.

The problem is that Barry is actually using the "No False Scotsman" fallacy

I read your article.
Are you saying that Simon didn't really believe even though the inspired record says he believed?
Or are you saying that Simon never repented before sinning in verse 18?
Or something else?
Your answer will be very important information for this debate.

You still have not explained why you think 1 Peter 3:21 is referring to the Holy Spirit baptism. Please do so.

The reason Barry is so desperately attempting to defend his deceptive and illogical claims is because he was not saved in the manner Scripture defines

Or it could be that I stand for the truth.

(while deceptively acting like we are in agreement on doctrine so he can fool others here)

'Acting' implies that I am not sincere. We do agree on many other doctrinal issues, but not this one (baptism as a requirement for salvation). 

which is the manner in which the rest of us here were born again in Christ.

You mean in the manner of baptism? I think you took Romans 6:1-4 out of context.
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:4

Since the baptism represents being dead in Christ and born again in the Spirit, this is why those people in Acts 19:4 were baptized again; not that they relied on it for salvation, but as a representation of being born again in repentance and faith under Christ.

It doesn't represent. It IS being dead in Christ.

Barry believes he was saved by water baptism, and I can assure him, with certainty in the Word of God, that his belief in water baptism for the foundation of his salvation will end him up in hell and the lake of fire.

That's quite a bold statement. Especially coming after this statement:

Even I do not believe about myself that I have a full understanding of Scripture yet because, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know, and have to work harder to understand more.

trying to deceive new Christians into believing the heresies he was taught and adopted

I learned it myself. These truths were taught to me by no one but the Holy Spirit through the everlasting word.

If he really wants to believe what he is saying, he should join the Catholics or Adventists

No, I will not join the Catholics or the Adventists, because they are not faithful.

he came here on this forum because he wanted this to be public

Absolutely right. For if you do not have ears to hear, maybe others will decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13

For anyone that believes salvation cannot be lost:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:26-39

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 4:1

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Timothy 4:16

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General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 12, 2020, 02:29:13 PM »

I have already stated my point.

The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church

My last reply was an attempt to get to the core (read: PART) of our disagreement.
I believe Acts 2:41 is one whole thought and states that three thousand souls were added to the body of Christ because they were baptized.

I think you believe this verse is comprised of two independent thoughts, that is why I politely asked you to explain.

Do you agree with this statement? If not, please explain.

Instead of explaining, you threatened to ban my account.

You said

--The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.

But you also say

People who don't take the Bible seriously typically don't finish reading the verses they put under scrutiny.
- Christopher Johnson, Bible Contradictions: Was Abraham Justified by Works or Faith, May 20, 2014

How ironic.

If we can't come to an agreement on A=C, then the rest of my argument (B=C, A=B) is not worth discussing.

Moving on...

I stated clearly what argument you made

Yes, you did.

Barry is assuming that "baptism = being added to the church"

I demonstrated that it was false

Well, you tried.

Then it says, three thousand people were added to the church, and I would like to note that does not say that everyone who was baptized was added to the church because not everyone who gets baptized is a Christian.

Simon believed and was baptized, and yet, he was rejected by Peter.

That was the example I gave to support my argument.

But I debated your example:

I would argue that he was added to the church, but due to the bitterness in his heart, he lost his salvation.
I'd even say he got let off easy compared to Ananias and Sapphira. Satan filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Spirit. Were they not regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost? They were part of the congregation of those who believed.

So I ask you again. Were Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost since they were part of the multitude of them that believed?
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 4:32-35
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:1-3

One might claim that Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira were false converts based on your article of the such.
Now I will argue this point because its entire premise is a logical fallacy. It is more commonly known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
I will refer you to the church in Smyrna:
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelavtion 2:8-10
If these Christians (those in the church/body of Christ) were faithful unto death, they received the crown of life.
So, what happened if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death? Did they not receive the crown of life? Were they never Christians to begin with? How can one call them false converts if only God knows their hearts?
It seems logical to me that if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death, they did not receive the crown of life......even though they were Christians. Get it yet? Christians can lose their salvation (crown of life) by being unfaithful. But if after being unfaithful, they repent with Godly sorrow (as you correctly teach), they are added back into the fold.

Moving on to the context of 1 Peter 3:21...
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1 Peter 3:18-22
You say

What Peter is writing there has to do with the comparison of the ark in the days of Noah in an analogy to Christ, and how that baptism was not designed after the traditions of men.

It is very clear to me that Peter is referring to baptism in water, not the Holy Spirit. Yes, I have learned about baptism in the Holy Spirit. See how he references and denounces bath water (filth of the flesh)? It is likened to a bath, but instead is an answer of a good conscience toward God, which is what happens when people are baptized. He is saying that Noah's flood and baptism are similar, an antitype. And just like how Noah was saved from the wicked world through the flood, Christians are also saved from the wicked world through baptism. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:40-41
Hopefully that brings the context into clear focus for you. I would like to hear why you think this is referring to the Holy Spirit baptism.

Moving on the Kenneth's reply...
I completely agree with your point about the versions. My purpose was to reply to Jeanne's post with the baptism article, and Christopher's meme.

Moving on the Jeanne's and bluebird724's replies...
Yes, I really want to go down that road.
This is another logical fallacy known as False Dilemma or False Dichotomy. i.e. Either baptism doesn't save, or the thief didn't go join Jesus in paradise that day.
What if baptism (along with faith & repentance) does save AND the thief joined Jesus in paradise that day? Why is this not an option?
First, when Jesus said those words, the thief was subject to the Old Covenant. The thief had his sins forgiven by Jesus just like many others during His ministry. Not until Jesus died did the New Covenant come into force. Do you have any proof that the thief sinned between the moment Jesus died and the moment he died?
Second, we have no proof that he was not baptized before being crucified. He seemed very knowledgeable of Jesus and even the resurrection of the dead. It is possible that he had been exposed to the teachings of Christ and baptized my John. Do you really want to go down that road with no proof?

To the moderators:
You are given authority to discipline members who show disrespect on this forum according to Rule #1.

Examples of disrespect are (but not limited to) railing insults, breaking forum rules, lying, deception, false accusations, murmurings, cussing, etc.

Christopher has shown me disrespect several times.

you did not come here seeking help to learn and understand; you came here to accuse in contention

This is a false accusation. Note the several questions I asked.

You were so enraged coming onto this forum that you did not even fully read what you were responding to

This is a false accusation. I fully read the baptism article before my post. There is no proof that I was enraged coming onto this forum. I came onto this forum with a sincere heart. I even followed the rules by posting in the New Members section within 48 hours.

Nope, you did not read what I wrote. You skipped it.

Another false accusation. How could I have responded to it if I did not read it?

No, because you're lying. You cannot lie and be sincere at the same time.

This is deception. Christopher cannot know if I am lying. How do you even tolerate this?

teaching false doctrine on the basis of Acts 2:41 by claiming that it says that you must be baptized to be saved

Blatant false accusation. I never said that. I said those who are baptized are added to the body of Christ. I also said those who are saved are added to the body of Christ. Then I made the logical conclusion based on these verses that being saved equates to being baptized.

and now you think sending us all on a merry chase to beat around the bush is somehow going to redeem you.

Lying, deception, false accusation. Seriously, how does one come to that conclusion? I was going right for the heart of the 'bush', that is, our core disagreement.

To Christopher:
I have read through most of your articles. I came to you as Aquila and Priscilla came to Apollos. I will pray for your heart to be open to the word. And I will gladly accept your reply with an open mind if you choose to do so.

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General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 11, 2020, 08:27:12 PM »

Here is what the bible actually says:
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
- Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Part of my argument is that three thousand souls were added to the church because those who received Peter's preaching were baptized.
Do you agree with this statement? If not, please explain.

4

General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 11, 2020, 06:56:00 PM »

I read what you wrote several times to make sure I understood what you were saying before I replied.
You are saying that not everyone who is baptized is added to the church.
I am ready to address what you said to me.

5

General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 11, 2020, 03:22:22 PM »

Well, I sensed that you took my first post as contentious even though I tried not to sound that way, so that is why I changed my tone.
I hope you understand that I am sincere.

And now to address your rebuttal.
You refute the point made from verse 41 by saying that Simon was not added to the church even though he was baptized.
Where is your proof of that? I would argue that he was added to the church, but due to the bitterness in his heart, he lost his salvation.
I'd even say he got let off easy compared to Ananias and Sapphira. Satan filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Spirit. Were they not regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost? They were part of the congregation of those who believed.

You cannot be in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness when you have been regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost.

I'm interested in reading your thought process on this. Are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Again, see Ananias and Sapphira.

Furthermore, I believe I was saved by repentance, confession, and baptism. I did feel deep, deep sorrow for my sins before I was baptized. And I feel that deep sorrow every first day of the week when I assemble with the saints to remember the Lord's death on the cross.

The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church

In Christian love,
Barry

6

General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 11, 2020, 01:43:41 PM »

I actually did read your article on baptism, which is the very reason I decided to register and post.

Your article did not address those points made in Acts 2:41,47.

I am talking to you, Chris. In your article, you are saying baptism is not a requirement for salvation and that is false doctrine.

What I'm addressing is the false doctrine that baptism is a requirement for salvation, which is anti-biblical in many places, as I have already demonstrated.

I do not come to accuse in contention, only to correct my brethren.

In Christian love,
Barry

7

Introduce Yourself / I appreciate truth!

« on: August 11, 2020, 12:09:21 PM »

My name is Barry. I am 34 years old. I was baptized in 2017. A couple of years ago, I was referred to the YouTube channel by a fellow Christian. Many truths were being spoken by Chris so I subscribed and listened to his videos occasionally.
I grew up attending a Methodist congregation at the will of my parents. I did not know much about the bible during my childhood, just that I needed to be a good person. My parents had me baptized there when I was an infant. I stopped attending when I moved away for college during which I led a sinful life. One day I had a very spiritual experience that chilled me to the bone. After that I knew that I was in possession of something called a soul. Over many years, my spirituality increased little by little. I started researching the truth about many things of the world and came to the conclusion that the Bible was a true historical document. Circa 2015 was when I started reading the New Testament and attending worship at the closest congregation to my home at the time. I moved away within a year for a job opportunity and was invited to worship with a close friend in spring 2016. Then I read the book of Acts and that is when everything started to make sense to me. I obeyed the gospel and my new life started!
I am an active member in my church (non-denominational). The Lord provided a wife for me last year, who also is a member of the church. We love the Lord and are blessed to serve Him.

8

General Discussion / Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

« on: August 11, 2020, 10:05:24 AM »

You say that baptism as a requirement for salvation is false doctrine.
What do you say of the logic in Acts 2:41,47?

41:"those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.

47:"And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."
Adding to whose number? Those in the body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were being saved.

If being baptized results in being added to the body of Christ, and being saved results in being added to the body of Christ, then being baptized is the same as being saved. Therefore, baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Also...
1Peter 3:21 "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience of Jesus Christ"
BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU! How much clearer can this be?

One must do everything listed in the scriptures to be saved.
Hear the word, believe the word, repent of sins, confess Jesus is Christ, be immersed(baptismo) in water, and be faithful unto death.