CLE Forum
General Category => Bible Discussion => Topic started by: creationliberty on July 13, 2019, 12:21:53 PM
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I may need to make an entire article about this one day because after doing a bit of investigation, I'm going to try to remove the word 'cult' from my vocabulary because, if you do some research, you'll find out that it actually means nothing.
After being accused of being a cultist so many times, I finally asked myself: What is a cultist? As I thought about it, I realized that there was almost no way to answer that. Try it: Ask yourself how to define what a cultist is before you go looking for any definitions, and see if you can come up with a comprehensive definition.
When I looked it up in Webster's 1828, it wasn't there. The reason for that is because the word didn't start appearing until the 17th century, and it wasn't in much use back in the 1800s. Here's a definition from dictionary.com:
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers
That was extremely fascinating to read because I realized that, according to those definitions, everyone in the world is a cultist. Ever heard of "cult movies?" It's people who have great veneration of a thing. Even atheists are cultists, as they admire evolution and worship the creature.
In Webster's 1828 dictionary, this falls along the lines of what the Bible calls a "sect:"
a body or number of persons united in tenets, chiefly in philosophy or religion, but constituting a distinct party by holding sentiments different from those of other men
Everyone belongs to a "sect." The question is: What sect are you referring to?
That now leads me to a desire to ask the next person who calls me a cultist: "Would you define what you mean by 'cult'?" It's interesting that, very often, the name "Jim Jones" comes up. If that's the case, then I would respond: "Are you accusing me of being a suicidal murderer?" Of course, in their hearts, that's what they believe; they're not really accusing me of any religious belief, they're really just hypocritical railing liars, who accuse me of being a "kool-aid drinker."
See the deception? As soon as I will address them with the Scripture against what they say and believe, they will accuse me of being a suicidal murderer, but they won't say it in that way because it makes them look like an irrational, crazy person. They try to avoid looking like that in their outward appearance, but in their hearts, they are wicked and corrupt.
This is why Romans 1 describes such wickedness in the hearts of those who are reprobates:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
-Romans 1:28-32
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I was told cult means to keep ones true believe in secret and occult is to have there doctrine known. I had to look up the word occult to figure out how to spell it and saw that how wrong I was on that. If I remember right I learned that from my pastor so long ago. 20 years later and I am still trying to get the leven out from that churchinanity
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Well, you've made me think about it Chris. I often use the word. 'Cult' has taken on a particular set of meanings in modern day. This has happened without any formal definition but most people know what they mean. In all our heads are the myriad of examples we have been supplied with in the past few decades. Jim Jones. David Koresh. Scientology and a hundred others.
Most people think of a cult as a totalitarian organization controlled by a very few 'leaders' or even one man. These organizations cut themselves off from the rest of the world, are secretive and indulge in strange or even illicit practices. At the head of these groups is usually a mentally and or criminally deranged man ( sometimes a woman ) who derives substantial financial gain from the group while treating them like slaves and often takes sexual advantage of underage members.
I'm not saying this is accurate. It's just the common conception. The dictionary definition of the word might as well be dead an buried.
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Most people think of a cult as a totalitarian organization controlled by a very few 'leaders' or even one man. These organizations cut themselves off from the rest of the world, are secretive and indulge in strange or even illicit practices. At the head of these groups is usually a mentally and or criminally deranged man ( sometimes a woman ) who derives substantial financial gain from the group while treating them like slaves and often takes sexual advantage of underage members.
Have you read Chris' article / book
Psychology: Hoodwinked By The Devil
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/psychology.php
Years ago I used to figure that the "pastors" and others I was dealing with just had 'severe mental problems'. It wasn't too long after that and thinking more about it that I came to the conclusion that they do not have 'severe mental problems' and they are in reality just plain outright evil and have never humbled themselves to repentence nor has their evil life been changed in any way from a subservient relationship with Christ. They are people who want to be justified by the works of "going to church on Sundays" and singing hyper-Jesus songs and clapping ...... and buying a ticket in to the kingdom of God by tithing. The doctrines of the Bible mean nothing to these people and the only pieces they are interested in are the "verses" they "cherry pick" to say what they want to say.
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Scott, I find it funny. You speak of the concept of a cult and it sounds similar to schizophrenia. They both exist in the public eye and are seen as real but when you really break it down. The words are really meaningless and can both be used to described everyone on the face of the planet. Kinda Ironic, you do have a point, Scott.
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When I saw the question I imagined much of what Reed said and people drinking poisoned kool aid. I have always thought of a cult as people with beliefs that defy the mainstream. Looking at it now I would say that defies most of the people on this forum. It actually did occur to me a while back to ask myself if I was if I was a member of a cult. I suppose, by own definition, I am, except cults don't actually exist or everyone is in one meaning no-one is really in one...
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Scott, I find it funny. You speak of the concept of a cult and it sounds similar to schizophrenia. They both exist in the public eye and are seen as real but when you really break it down. The words are really meaningless and can both be used to described everyone on the face of the planet. Kinda Ironic, you do have a point, Scott.
I'm guessing you meant 'funny weird' and not 'funny hah hah'. ;D. I had a friend who went 'schizophrenic' in his mid twenties. It was terrible. It very much seems to me that schizophrenia is literally and observably demonic possession. As to your comment about 'describing everyone on the face of the planet': We need to be aware of just what Satan being the 'Prince of this world' means. ( Jn 14:30 ) Also the 'Prince of the power of the air'. ( Eph. 2:2 ) I don't think Christians can be possessed. But we surely can be influenced. The power of Satan is growing exponentially on this planet. His influence is saturating the very air we breathe.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [Luk 18: 7-9 KJV]
That second verse is to me one of the scariest in the entire bible ... as is the third.
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Matthew 7:23 scares me more:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Matthew 7:23 scares me more:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Likewise, if there are any words that scare me the most then those words would be the ones.
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So...if "cult" is, essentially, a meaningless word, what should we replace it with? I mean we all actually did mean something when we used it. So what is a more accurate way convey what we meant. (Assuming that we all meant the same thing when we used the term.)
I'm thinking, false religious system, or dangerous pagan religion, pagan philosophy, or something along those lines. Any other suggestions?
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So...if "cult" is, essentially, a meaningless word, what should we replace it with? I mean we all actually did mean something when we used it. So what is a more accurate way convey what we meant. (Assuming that we all meant the same thing when we used the term.)
I'm thinking, false religious system, or dangerous pagan religion, pagan philosophy, or something along those lines. Any other suggestions?
How about heathen mind control group. ::)
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So what is a more accurate way convey what we meant. (Assuming that we all meant the same thing when we used the term.)
I'm thinking, false religious system, or dangerous pagan religion, pagan philosophy, or something along those lines. Any other suggestions?
How about heathen mind control group. ::)
Kenneth and Reed,
that seems a great way to describe them,
another name for these groups of people are ... CATHOLIC - MORMON - JEHOVAH WITNESS
of all the pagan dangerous false religions out there, these are the worst, to me...
that massive amounts of people have allowed themselves to belong to a "heathen mind control group"
it is so very sad, and makes me quite ill :-(
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Another group I could put are the people who believe you have to vaccinate at all costs while ignoring those who have actually suffered. "Liberals are the anti-vaxxers of politics", "Those anti-vaxxers are okay with children dying", "These Africans carry their children miles to the nearest doctor so they can be vaccinated, while look at how stupid these American parents are". It goes on and on if you bring proof against them, they will laugh it off or say they are lying. Have any of you notice this too, an almost addiction of wanting to torture people?
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I've noticed it Caleb. Most people just dont know any better, and cant think of a reason why "our government would do anything like that to its citizens." I have been told this. maybe even more than once lol
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"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 kjv.
My take on this immediately is that false teachers will teach and actually persuade their hearers of their false doctrine. if said sect remains in denial of the most obvious/straight forward precepts/commandments, then that even more calls for that sect to be labelled a cult. from that their cult will be formed, and I do believe that the foundational requirement for qualifying as a cult is when its leader teaches against the gospel or rejects the essential things said of Christ himself.
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I still use the word cult to describe certain controlling organizations, especially religious, but also others like the CIA, Mossad, and M16 that are also well learned in the techniques of influence, persuasion, and control. I believe that certain personalities are more susceptible to control techniques. That being said, I'm seeing cults everywhere these days, the cult of America (nationalism, patriotism), Christian nationals, Christian patriotism, Christian Zionism, etc. If you don't believe these folks are being controlled and manipulated, think again. Jehovahs Witnesses to me are a cult as well as Bahai, Scientology, Worldwide Church of God and its splinter groups, because they use control techniques on susceptible people who easily place unmerited respect on a person or thing. I believe that the only protection from control techniques, controlling organizations, and movements is to truly seek God and His wisdom only. Prov 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
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I suppose it doesn't really matter how WE define the word 'cult' because I think almost everyone in the world would define it as something different. As has already been said, pretty much the whole of the world's population is in a cult of some kind or other.
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I still use the word cult to describe certain controlling organizations, especially religious, but also others like the CIA, Mossad, and M16 that are also well learned in the techniques of influence, persuasion, and control. I believe that certain personalities are more susceptible to control techniques. That being said, I'm seeing cults everywhere these days, the cult of America (nationalism, patriotism), Christian nationals, Christian patriotism, Christian Zionism, etc. If you don't believe these folks are being controlled and manipulated, think again. Jehovahs Witnesses to me are a cult as well as Bahai, Scientology, Worldwide Church of God and its splinter groups, because they use control techniques on susceptible people who easily place unmerited respect on a person or thing. I believe that the only protection from control techniques, controlling organizations, and movements is to truly seek God and His wisdom only. Prov 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Good points. Seducing spirits are everywhere.
.1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
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There is a man, for simplicity, we will call him a Christian apologist, his name is Ravi Zacharias. While I was on YouTube yesterday I came across a video where someone asked him if Roman Catholicism is a cult. According to his own definition of what a cult is in the video, the simple answer to the young man's question was "yes" but he prevaricated and ended up not even answering the young man's question.
Here is the video below. It is approximately six and a half minutes
https://youtu.be/CisY1QTgEis
His definition does illustrate that Christopher has a point in that there isn't a point of congruity as to what a cult is, however even if there is such a thing as a cult, many people that claim to stand up for the truth are afraid to stand up like John the Baptist and JESUS did and point out "the brood of vipers/whited sepulchres". I actually wondered if he gets some kind of financial support from the Catholic community or he just wants to be inoffensive at all costs.
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All I can say is that I hope that young man comes out from among the leaven of those people because he was very well versed, and seemly humble and genuine. The very fact that the audience laughed in nervousness (and the speak joked about it) after the question was asked shows how little they understand the truth. Frankly, I only made it to 2 minutes into the video before I shut it off. The fact that he started out with a PR response showed me that Ravi is deceptive, and I will not have anything to do with him until he comes to repentance.
Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
-Psa 12:1-2
What he is doing is not making peace; what he's doing is cowering to save face, and that is not what the Christian faith looks like.
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I use to listen to Ravi Zacharias not to learn but to see what he say is of Christ. I can tell you he is very deceptive. He always quotes, from people like c.s lewis. If you listen to him long enough you will also noticed he makes this drawn out hissing sound after quoting certain phrases like some kind of serpent.
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Ravi Zacharias has also appeared in at least one conference with Todd White, Bill Johnson, Francis Chang and other Charismatic crazy guys. Increasingly he has been showing his true colors over the years.
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You have me interested now in checking out the history of the word cult. This would be conjecture, but words have been used before in kind of a derogatory fashion for people questioning the majority (conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxxer,etc). It makes me think that there is at least some story to how that word was originally used if it wasn't in the dictionary before. Good catch Christopher! I will have to reconsider my use of the word going forward.
This isn't the first place I have heard criticism for Ravi and the other preachers mentioned. To be honest, I had not even heard of them up until the last year, and it was from others criticizing them that I first heard their names.
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I looked up the word on etymology.com and here is what it says:
1610s, "worship, homage" (a sense now obsolete); 1670s, "a particular form or system of worship;" from French culte (17c.), from Latin cultus "care, labor; cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," past participle of colere "to till" (see colony (https://www.etymonline.com/word/colony?ref=etymonline_crossreference)).
The word was rare after 17c., but it was revived mid-19c. (sometimes in French form culte) with reference to ancient or primitive systems of religious belief and worship, especially the rites and ceremonies employed in such worship. Extended meaning "devoted attention to a particular person or thing" is from 1829.
Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree. [Hugh Rawson, "Wicked Words," 1993]
Cult is a term which, as we value exactness, we can ill do without, seeing how completely religion has lost its original signification. Fitzedward Hall, "Modern English," 1873]
I especially like the definition given by Hugh Rawson. That sounds like the way most people use it... ::) ::) ::)
'Conspiracy theory' or 'conspiracy theorist' is another interesting term. I think it was invented in Soviet Russia but it was popularised in the US by the CIA and used in terms of people who disagreed with or did not accept the findings of the Warren Commission, which was the official story on the assassination of JFK.