CLE Forum
General Category => Bible Discussion => Topic started by: Natalie on December 06, 2018, 07:12:02 PM
-
Hello everyone,
I feel like I have been getting bad dreams lately that would seem to indicate some kind of evil in my life. For example, when I was involved in sexual sin and playing Magic the Gathering (a card game), I had many bad dreams with wolves, spiders, vampires, etc. I did get rid of those sins, and the dreams went away. Lately though, I have been having dreams of spiders and being chased by a snake, so something is going on that is not right. I am not sure if I've gotten so sensitive to sin, that any bad thought I have will manifest in a dream, or if there is something evil present in my house? I live with my parents and can't control what's in the house. Maybe there is something in my room that is satanic and I don't know it? Any advice or insight would be appreciated.
-
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-Ecc 5:3
Dreams come about by things you do during your day, or things you think about, or discussions you have, etc.
-
I am so glad you shared that bible verse, I need to memorize that verse. Do the bible make any mention if the devil can give people dreams.
-
No. Although I'm sure it can happen from those who are possessed, and/or those who practice hardcore levels of witchcraft.
-
Natalie, I want to say that I have no idea where my dreams come from because they literally never make any sense in the slightest. I hate when I dream because they are always so random, never make any sense, and then there is the fact they are uncontrollable.
-
That is the purpose of that proverb. Just as a dream doesn't make sense, is uncontrollable, and is random, so is a fool, by the multitude of his words, nonsensical, uncontrollable, and random, which makes it a vain thing to even talk to them. You literally just explained the proverb.
-
Ecclesiastes 5:3 KJV
-
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-Ecc 5:3
Dreams come about by things you do during your day, or things you think about, or discussions you have, etc.
I would like to assert that in Ecc 5:3 the word "dream" means (A vain fancy; a wild conceit; an unfounded suspicion). And the word "business" means (Concern; right of action or interposing). In other words Ecc 5:3 tells me that busy-bodies cause unfounded suspicions. When the passage is read this way in fits the context well.
-
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-Ecc 5:3
Dreams come about by things you do during your day, or things you think about, or discussions you have, etc.
I would like to assert that in Ecc 5:3 the word "dream" means (A vain fancy; a wild conceit; an unfounded suspicion). And the word "business" means (Concern; right of action or interposing). In other words Ecc 5:3 tells me that busy-bodies cause unfounded suspicions. When the passage is read this way in fits the context well.
How? What your saying doesn't make sense to the context, which is why it was confusing to me to read you say that it "fits the context well." If we go back a couple of verses, the context is this:
Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
-Ecc 5:1-2
The fool is going into the house of God and offering sacrifices as an outward pretense, or in other words, he doesn't really have any repentance (i.e. grief and godly sorrow) of his sin. So he goes in to offer his oblations under pretense, and then speaks vain words unto God that mean nothing because he has not cleaned out the inside of the cup and platter.
Therefore, as dreams make no sense because they come from a multitude of business, which have different contexts in different settings, being mixed together in a confusing way, so is a fool known by his words, or that by his long prayers and speeches unto God, we can see the foolishness and wickedness of his heart, which is often confusing, especially since he's a hypocrite.
The importance of the context of the word "dream" is that it is imagined to be real while the person who is experiencing it is asleep, but when we are awakened by the light, we come to our senses and realize that it was all fake. Thus, it is correlating more to this:
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
-Eph 5:11-14
That's why I tell people that I like to check the Bible's context to see which definition matches what's being said. I'm not always 100% accurate on it, knowing that I do err at times, but if we go through a list of definitions and "assert" which one we want, rather than checking the context of Scripture first before selecting which is the correct definition, then we end up becoming no better than those in the leavened new-age church buildings who rely on Strong's Concordance.
The Dangers of Using Lexicons and Concordances (https://http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/lexicon.php)
-
I thought it was well explained when Chris post
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-Ecc 5:3
Dreams come about by things you do during your day, or things you think about, or discussions you have, etc.
Simple and to the point. I read Williams post and I got confused. What source did you get the definition from?
-
Websters 1828
-
I believe Ecc 5:1-7 all share the same context. In this passage the word "dream" is used twice. I believe the word has the same meaning in both instances and the meaning is: to be engaged in vain thoughts that don't pertain to the service of our Lord. I cannot reason in a fashion that would allow the use of the word "dream" in these instances to be related to sleeping like we generally do in bed at night.
-
Will, I have to call you out on this one because that's deceptive. I know what you're doing, even if others here don't see it yet. Of course, I'll make a disclaimer that IF you did not catch yourself doing this, then it is simply error and not deception, but if you know what you're doing, that's deception. You went to Webster's 1828 to get your definition for 'dream'--I knew that before you posted that you did. You went straight to the third definition, and skipped over the first.
dream (n): the thought or series of thoughts of a person in sleep
You didn't tell everyone that, and that's why I tried, at first, to be gentle and say that claiming to "assert" the definition is not how we ought to read Scripture, but you continued to try to justify yourself, and now I'm very curious as to why.
You did the same thing with the definition of "business;" you skipped down to the fourth definition, instead of looking at the first. Instead of using the context of the Word of God for your foundation, you're cherry-picking from a list of definitions, selecting which ever definition satisfies your own theories. Again, that is precisely what the new-age leavened churchgoers are doing with their lexicons and concordances.
For example, on the term 'business' you specifically selected a definition that is NOT used in Ecc 5's Biblical context, in order to support your hypothesis. QUOTE:
"In other words Ecc 5:3 tells me that busy-bodies cause unfounded suspicions."
First of all, I want everyone to notice that I gave an explanation and interpretation of precisely what was being talked about, including prefaced context, whereas Will simply selected two specific fractions of definitions used. Second, Will, when you looked up 'dream', you honed in on the phrase "unfounded suspicions," and when you went to 'business', under the fourth definition, you applied it to Scripture in a way in which the word was not used. Look at the example from Websters under #4:
'What business has a man with the disputes of others?'
This is being used in a way of concern, like, "Hey, that's none of my business," meaning "That's none of my concern." I'll insert the word you're trying to make it say:
For a dream cometh through the multitude of concern; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-Ecc 5:3
That simply does not make sense. I once had a dream that Michael J. Fox helped me escape a deserted island using an impossibly long step ladder to get onto a cruise ship that was passing by. I did not express any concern for deserted islands or Michael J. Fox during my week, but when I thought back on it, it was more because of my "business" or rather, the things which I did during my week, like seeing a video in passing that explain Fox's disability, talking with someone about boats (which led me to remember being on a cruise ship with my parents), etc, and that's because "a dream cometh through the multitude of business," and I know that you know this to be true (because we've all experienced it, which is why it is a good example in Scripture for all men to understand), so why are you fighting this?
QUOTE:
"I cannot reason in a fashion that would allow the use of the word 'dream' in these instances to be related to sleeping like we generally do in bed at night."
To say that you "cannot reason" this definition is absurd because that is what this passage of Scripture is talking about and I've already explained why; since this is what God meant by His Word, that means you are definitely capable of reasoning the Scripture according to this definition because he has given you that ability. You might be UNWILLING, but you are surely able. I could almost guarantee that every other person here could understand that concept, and they are welcome to speak up for themselves, but I would like to know why you would go so far as to claim that you "cannot reason" it in that same way, which we both know is not true.
So that no one else is confused by what you just said, let me quote the two verses in which the word dream is used in this passage:
(v3) For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
(v7) For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Verse 7 is actually affirming my previous post about the meaning of this passage; that dreams, which are the thoughts in our sleep, come about from a bunch of business that we do and think about while we are awake, and those dreams are vanity (i.e. useless). Unless God comes to communicate to a man in a dream, the dreams are vain, which is an analogy for us to understand the (useless) words of a fool, who also speaks in his vanity, speaking according to the multitude of his business, but not in accordance with repentance and faith in the Living God.
Just as the dreams we dream when we sleep are incoherent, vague, unintelligible, and unreasonable, so too are the words of the fool who comes into the house of God to offer oblations on pretense. When the Bible wants to refer to busybodies, there is a term God uses for that:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
-1Pe 4:15
Now, that being said, the proverbs of Ecc 5 CAN apply to busybodies, because none of them should speak rashly with their mouths. I have used this verse to tell such people that, but the context is not speaking directly to busybodies; it is an analogy for men to understand that the mouths of those who are religious hypocrites will speak rashly, and cause swift destruction to fall upon themselves, when they perform religious traditions on the outside while rejecting the grief and godly sorrow (i.e. repentance) of their sins.
-
Mr. Johnson, If you are leveling an accusation that you expect an answer to, I will submit and answer the accusation. I will note that I have read your posts on this matter and I do not accept that Ecc 5:3 should be applied to why a person has scary dreams and further I believe the word "dream" in Ecc 5:1-7 is referring to something other than the visions a person has at night during sleep. Having said that, if you wish to have the last word I'm okay with that and unless you demand an answer to an accusation I'm willing to let this matter rest. I believe there are more important issues to spend time on.
-
The issue is not about a word; that's not what the contention here is about, so because of that, I think you may misunderstand why this important. The offense of the issue is how you are studying, which is a worldly pattern and approach to dictionary in relation to God's Word, and the deceptive manner by which you are attempting to teach others here because you do not understand what it is the context of the Word is saying, choosing rather to rely on Webster's 1828 dictionary as your primary foundation for understanding. That is error, and if you are not correctable in that error, then it is called deception. If you do not want to answer to that, by all means, you have the liberty to not answer it, but at the very least, I will be very cautious of you from now on, and stay vigilant to watch out for anything you post on this site.
-
Natalie, I just thought I would say I've heard vitamin
B1deficiency can cause bad dreams. Through my
own experiments I find this to be true. Might be something
to consider checking into
-
So is a dream a vision from sleeping, and a vision is when someone is a wake?
-
A vision is something supernaturally presented to the mind; as visions can come from the Lord, and also from devils if one gives him/herself over to devils. A vision can come during the day, as when Peter entered into a trance around noonday, or it can come during sleep.
-
Okay, this discussion seems to be going off the original topic a bit, but now I gotta ask; how would you tell the difference between a vision given to you in your sleep and a regular dream?
-
God will make it known, without doubt.
-
I wanted to explain this a little more thoroughly because I had a scary dream last night, and it came to my mind what I think Will was doing in more detail. I'll see if I can explain it better; meaning of why he was cherry-picking those definitions out of context.
Most of you who have learned English have learned analogies, meaning that they teach them in school like this:
A kitten is to a cat, what a puppy is to a _______. (Fill in the blank)
Of course, the answer is "dog." The analogy is not to say that dogs and cats are the same, or that kittens and puppies are the same; they are obviously very different. The purpose of the analogy is to teach that both dogs and cats have a "baby" form they are in before they grow to be mature dogs and cats, but they do so in their own ways.
Likewise, the analogy here is:
A dream is to business, as a fool is to words.
The analogy is not to say that dreams and fools are the same, nor to say that the business and words are the same; they are obviously very different things, and can be used in very different ways. The purpose of the analogy is to teach the vanity behind a fool's voice.
Dreams come about through business, and in relation to the original question of this thread, just last night, I had a scary dream that my wife left me. This came about because last night, our church group was at our mid-week Bible study meeting, and Steve and I were talking about the situation where his wife left him many years ago. Even my wife's parents were in the dream trying to help me hunt her down to bring her back, which didn't make any sense because her parents do not like me at all, and would be ecstatic if she left me, but because we've been trying to give the Gospel to her parents over the past couple of weeks, they came up in the dream too, but in reality, it made no sense according to the truth.
So when I woke up, I had this feeling of dread, but then I remembered that Lorraine was still there, and I went and hugged her because I was glad she was there, but after a few minutes, I realized how completely silly it was for me to be concerned over some dream that didn't make any sense, or have any relevance to anything in reality.
Thus, a fool's voice comes about by how much he speaks; it's the same vain things that don't make any sense and have no relevance to anything in reality because he lies out of his mouth as a call to impress. What he says might even give you a good feeling in the passions of the moment, but it's all completely pointless and means nothing to God. For example, a pastor goes on a long prayer for show; it's complete vanity, and if you could see his entire life, everything that is done in secret, and compare it to the words of his showtime prayer, you would see completely vanity and hypocrisy. (SEE THIS LINK FOR DETAILS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2gdSMBB0o)) Once you understand the truth, like waking up from a dream, the fool is recognized for what he is.
[v4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
The fool lies to everyone in the house of God, putting on a show so he can seem good on the outside, but inwardly, he is vain. He makes a vow to God in order to impress everyone else, but it means nothing inwardly because he has no intention of keeping it, and just as a dream is vain and means nothing, so too is the vow of a fool.
However, what Will attempted to do was change the analogy to this:
A dream is to business, as a fool is to business.
The context of Ecc 5 is not "business," but rather it is about fools who are liars, who put on a show when they go into a religious institution, trying to make themselves look sanctified on the outside. Indeed, busybodies attempt to make themselves look busy on the outside, and I can totally understand that, but this passage is not talking about busybodies specifically. Certainly, busybodies are fools, and sometimes, they are even fools who go into religious institutions to put on a show; I would not argue against that, but if this passage was only talking about busybodies, then the meaning of the verses would be limited to a smaller percentage of the Jewish population, and it would not condemn all liars; only a few of them.
In short, Will is changing the analogy, cherry-picking definitions that support the change he made, and by that, he is then eliminating many of the sinners that God is referring to in this passage. Let me know if any of you understand that more clearly now, and if my explanation made sense.
-
Very well said Chris
-
Yes, that helps.
My dreams have never been much of a concern to me, however, this understanding of scripture really makes more sense out of my personal experiences.
BTW: "respect the finger!" ;D ;D ;D
-
By Will's method, nobody could ever understand the Bible without a dictionary close at hand, and God never meant for His Word to be interpreted by some outside source.
-
This is why I am so thankful for having The God who gave us his word with a built-in dictionary
-
I've been giving the option to repent or move on for the offense of false teaching. For this reason I have taken a serious look into the disagreement. I have concluded I was in error with my initial post on this topic. When I made my initial post I didn't fully consider the gravity of the situation. Nor did I expect some to think I was trying to teach. I have learned from this and will be more careful in the future just as the passage we are studying commands. My original purpose was to share that I did not believe the passage in question was for the purpose of addressing why one has scary dreams. I believed that by using the words "Ecc 5:3 tells me" I would not be forcing my understanding on others. Clearly I was in error. It does grieve me that so much time was spent on explanations do to my carelessness with words. Had I stated my thoughts as a question the conversation could have been more edifying. An example could be: How can one understand the passage as a whole (Ecc 5;1-7), using a definition like [The thought or series of thoughts of a person in sleep. A dream is a series of thoughts not under the command of reason, and hence wild and irregular.] for the word "dream" when in verse 7 there is correlation between "many words" which we can control and "multitude of dreams" which by the definition offered is out of one's control?
Then after carelessly entering the discussion I continued down the same path of apathy after being question on how I came to my conclusion. Rather than fully engage the question in a workman like spirit I just offered a quick answer to an important question. "Where did you get your definitions?" I did copy and paste from a Webster 1828, as a shortcut to an explanation on how the context of the passage Ecc 5:1-7 cause me to believe the definitions for "dream" and "business" were different than what had been previously offered. A better approach would have been to ask a series of questions regarding the passage.
Would it be correct to conclude that "multitude" and "many" are synonyms and the two are antonyms of "few"?
Would it be correct to conclude that we are warned against a "multitude" or "many" words?
Would it be correct to conclude that we have control of our words?
Would it be correct to conclude there is an analogy, in Ecc 5:7, made between "multitude of dreams" and "many words"?
-
Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV) For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Would it be correct to conclude there is an analogy, in Ecc 5:7, made between "multitude of dreams" and "many words"?
What do you mean by analogy?
The verse connects them using "and"
I guess I'm asking whats your point in concluding there is an analogy between the two?
-
This whole passage is comparing dreams to the multitude of words of the fool; neither one makes any sense.
As for what can cause scary dreams, Natalie has a lot going on right now with her mum in hospital. Stress can cause bad dreams, which is what is meant by a dream coming from 'a multitude of business'.
-
Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV) For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Would it be correct to conclude there is an analogy, in Ecc 5:7, made between "multitude of dreams" and "many words"?
What do you mean by analogy?
The verse connects them using "and"
I guess I'm asking whats your point in concluding there is an analogy between the two?
Thomas is on the right track here, and that's why I had questioned if you, Will, had understood what an analogy is, and furthermore, now I would question if you know how to recognize one. There is no comparison being made in verse 7, rather, there is a description, with the key nouns in the sentence being "dream," "word," and "vanity." There is nothing being compared, but rather, verse 7 (as I have already told you earlier in email), is referring back to the analogy (i.e. comparison) in verse 3. Therefore, the question is about verse 3. If verse 7 finds any use in this discussion, it would be in backing up the doctrine I previously explained in this thread, namely, that business which comes up in a dream is vain, as those words which come up in a fool are vain.
Neither business (daily activities) nor words (that which is spoken) are vain of themselves, but it is through the medium that they come about which makes them vain. As I stated before in email, I am at a loss to come up with an easier way to state this or break this down further; perhaps someone else may have a way to do that.
-
Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV) For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Would it be correct to conclude there is an analogy, in Ecc 5:7, made between "multitude of dreams" and "many words"?
What do you mean by analogy?
The verse connects them using "and"
I guess I'm asking whats your point in concluding there is an analogy between the two?
Thomas thank you for correcting me on terminology. I wrote "analogy" but what I meant was "similitude". What a difference that makes. Sorry everyone for that miss use of terms.
-
An analogy is an agreement or likeness between things and similitude is likeness or resemblance, still I have to ask, what is the conclusion you are coming to?
Again, the verse connects the phrase multitude of dreams with many words using "and", I am not sure what the question is
-
Thomas, my conclusion is: I don't believe I'm gifted with the resources to be a teacher to the sheep at least at this time. I believe I'm more of a workman and student. I want to make it known that if I question the way God's word is applied in the future I'll certainly ask questions rather than assert my conclusions.