Author Topic: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism  (Read 7418 times)

Kenneth Winslow

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Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« on: June 28, 2019, 01:54:57 PM »
EVERYONE should be baptized... Right?

Acts 8:36-38 KJV  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Wrong. Only if someone believes the doctrines of Christ with all of their heart should they be baptized

One reason that so many people don't understand the qualifications for baptism is because the standards have been removed from their Bibles.

Acts 8:36-38 NIV  As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?" (See Footnotes below.) And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.


.And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:36, ‬38 ESV
 


That kind of opens the door for infant baptism doesn't it?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 02:16:42 PM by Kenneth Winslow »
Nehemiah 8:8 KJV — So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Jeanne

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 03:28:34 PM »
There's an article on the website about that, too.

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/baptism.php

I was baptised as a baby and the Presbyterian church I grew up in did that regularly. However, once I got older and understood what baptism really is about, I got baptised 'properly' even though it was still in a leavened church building and I've learned even more since then.

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2019, 04:01:01 PM »

As I said in the article: "Blood provides atonement, not water."
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2020, 10:05:24 AM »
You say that baptism as a requirement for salvation is false doctrine.
What do you say of the logic in Acts 2:41,47?

41:"those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.

47:"And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."
Adding to whose number? Those in the body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were being saved.

If being baptized results in being added to the body of Christ, and being saved results in being added to the body of Christ, then being baptized is the same as being saved. Therefore, baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Also...
1Peter 3:21 "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience of Jesus Christ"
BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU! How much clearer can this be?

One must do everything listed in the scriptures to be saved.
Hear the word, believe the word, repent of sins, confess Jesus is Christ, be immersed(baptismo) in water, and be faithful unto death.

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2020, 11:25:25 AM »
Barry, you need to read the forum rules. You signed an agreement when you registered on this forum, and there is a large link on the board that says "NEW MEMBERS? CLICK HERE," so you need to address that:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2020, 01:21:05 PM »
You say that baptism as a requirement for salvation is false doctrine.
Well, first of all, who are you talking to? Second, I don't know exactly what you are saying here. That was a strangely-worded sentence. Are you accusing someone of saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation, and that is false doctrine? Or are you accusing someone of saying baptism is not a requirement for salvation and that is false doctrine?

Quote
What do you say of the logic in Acts 2:41,47?
Who are you talking to? You are commenting on a thread that is well over a year old.

Quote
41:"those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.
And... your point is what?

Quote
47:"And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."
Adding to whose number? Those in the body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were being saved.
And... your point is what?

Quote
If being baptized results in being added to the body of Christ, and being saved results in being added to the body of Christ, then being baptized is the same as being saved. Therefore, baptism is a requirement for salvation.
Did you happen to read/listen to the teaching I did on this subject? It was put in a link in one of the above posts. I'll add in here again, just in case you missed it:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/baptism.php
I addressed a lot of what you are talking about in that teaching. Would you like to take some time to look that over, and then we can discuss it together? The green button on the article page is the link to the audio teaching if you would prefer that.

Quote
Also...
1Peter 3:21 "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience of Jesus Christ"
BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU! How much clearer can this be?
Well, first of all, you need to put away your corrupt bible versions that will lead you away from the truth, and pick up a King James Bible. Here are some good reasons for that:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/kingjames.php
Second, are you familiar with what baptism is in the Holy Spirit? Have you ever learned about that? I can't tell because you are not really saying much, so I cannot determine what you do and do not know, which leaves me without enough information to know how to address you. What Peter is writing there has to do with the comparison of the ark in the days of Noah in an analogy to Christ, and how that baptism was not designed after the traditions of men. I'm starting to notice a pattern in you already, in which you enjoy cherry-picking verses, but do not read or understand the context, and since I do not believe you are of Christ (based on your testimony in your introduction post), it would make sense that you do not understand these things yet.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-1Co 2:14


Quote
One must do everything listed in the scriptures to be saved.
Hear the word, believe the word, repent of sins, confess Jesus is Christ, be immersed(baptismo) in water, and be faithful unto death.
That indicates to me that you believe in a false gospel of works because you believe you have to perform a list of deeds to obtain salvation, and therefore, you have learned a false gospel. I can help you to gain understanding about that, but you did not come here seeking help to learn and understand; you came here to accuse in contention. Even if you were born again in Christ, you would still be classified as a new Christian, and so your arrogance alone on that matter is astounding, thinking that you have a full understanding when you really have little. Even I do not believe about myself that I have a full understanding of Scripture yet because, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know, and have to work harder to understand more. And yet, one who is supposedly new to the Christian faith believes he has obtained all understanding of this matter shows a lot of pride of heart.
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
-James 4:6


Frankly, based on everything I have seen you write on this forum, there is only one teaching I have that I would direct you to look at:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell
I think that is the message you most desperately need to hear.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 01:26:02 PM by creationliberty »
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
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trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 01:43:41 PM »
I actually did read your article on baptism, which is the very reason I decided to register and post.

Your article did not address those points made in Acts 2:41,47.

I am talking to you, Chris. In your article, you are saying baptism is not a requirement for salvation and that is false doctrine.
Quote
What I'm addressing is the false doctrine that baptism is a requirement for salvation, which is anti-biblical in many places, as I have already demonstrated.

I do not come to accuse in contention, only to correct my brethren.

In Christian love,
Barry

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 02:24:41 PM »
That was an interesting and convenient shift in tone in your writing after being called out for your contention. You were so enraged coming onto this forum that you did not even fully read what you were responding to, you did not initially say who you were addressing, and you did not even look at what you were signing and rules of the forum. You think your contention will not be easily spotted because you are behind your computer screen, but I assure you, it is already know, so if you want to lie about it, that's your choice, but it's not going to go over well for you here.

It is also interesting that, suddenly, the phrases "Christian love" and "my brethren" start coming out as soon as you are called out for being a false convert that believes in a false, works-based doctrine. Barry, that kind of PR (i.e. public relations) tactic might work in church buildings, but it will not work here, and I am MORE cautious about you now than I was before you made that response, and the reason is because you have admitted nothing in honesty and humility, but are trying to paint an outward appearance of honest and humility to fool others, and you will not last long here if you continue down that path.

I have my notes on the Scriptures published on Acts chapter 2, which anyone reading this can find here:
http://creationliberty.com/articles/bookacts.php#2

[v41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
So Barry says:
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.
Well, first of all, this is not an argument that makes the case for Barry's doctrine, namely that "baptism is required for salvation." Second, the Scripture does not say what Barry claims it says. I'll ask everyone reading this to go back up and read the verse and Barry's comment slowly and carefully.

--Barry claims that the Acts 2:41 says that those who were baptized were added to the church.
--The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.

Then it says, three thousand people were added to the church, and I would like to note that does not say that everyone who was baptized was added to the church because not everyone who gets baptized is a Christian. (i.e. Barry is assuming that "baptism = being added to the church," which is not the case.) To provide correlating Scripture, let's look at Simon the sorcerer:
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
-Acts 8:13

Simon believed and was baptized, and yet, he was rejected by Peter:
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
-Acts 8:20-23

You cannot be in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness when you have been regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost. This is what Barry does not understand because he has never been regenerated. He believed that he was saved by his works (i.e. baptism), but was never born again in repentance and true faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, which is why he cannot understand this doctrine.

[v47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Barry then says:
Adding to whose number? Those in the body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were being saved.
Again, this is not an argument that makes the case for Barry's doctrine, namely that "baptism is required for salvation." This Scripture only says people were being added to the church.

To address Barry in particular: You are teaching the same works-based heresy that is taught by many other religious cults, and part of the reason you defend it so fervently is because you believe the act of baptism is what is getting you into heaven, and I can tell you with certainty that you will not see the kingdom of God if you cling to that false doctrine. If you do not want to hear the truth of Christ, you are free to go elsewhere. Have a pleasant evening.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
-Eph 2:8-9
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
-Luke 13:3

Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 03:22:22 PM »
Well, I sensed that you took my first post as contentious even though I tried not to sound that way, so that is why I changed my tone.
I hope you understand that I am sincere.

And now to address your rebuttal.
You refute the point made from verse 41 by saying that Simon was not added to the church even though he was baptized.
Where is your proof of that? I would argue that he was added to the church, but due to the bitterness in his heart, he lost his salvation.
I'd even say he got let off easy compared to Ananias and Sapphira. Satan filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Spirit. Were they not regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost? They were part of the congregation of those who believed.

Quote
You cannot be in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness when you have been regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost.
I'm interested in reading your thought process on this. Are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Again, see Ananias and Sapphira.

Furthermore, I believe I was saved by repentance, confession, and baptism. I did feel deep, deep sorrow for my sins before I was baptized. And I feel that deep sorrow every first day of the week when I assemble with the saints to remember the Lord's death on the cross.

The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church

In Christian love,
Barry

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 05:38:36 PM »
Quote
You refute the point made from verse 41 by saying that Simon was not added to the church even though he was baptized.
Nope, you did not read what I wrote. You skipped it. That was the example I gave to support my argument. When you are ready to address what I said to you, we can continue. Let me know when you're ready.

Quote
I hope you understand that I am sincere.
No, because you're lying. You cannot lie and be sincere at the same time.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 06:56:00 PM »
I read what you wrote several times to make sure I understood what you were saying before I replied.
You are saying that not everyone who is baptized is added to the church.
I am ready to address what you said to me.

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 07:30:19 PM »
Um... then do so? Here is what I said:
Quote
The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.
So, what you need to address is why you accused me (and subsequently, everyone else here) of teaching false doctrine on the basis of Acts 2:41 by claiming that it says that you must be baptized to be saved, when Acts 2:41 does not say that. (And neither does verse 47, or any others inbetween.)
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 08:27:12 PM »
Here is what the bible actually says:
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
- Acts 2:41 (KJV)


Part of my argument is that three thousand souls were added to the church because those who received Peter's preaching were baptized.
Do you agree with this statement? If not, please explain.

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 10:54:26 PM »
Okay, Barry, I'm going to be frank with you, I'm on the verge of just simply banning your account. You have already been very deceptive since you came here, you lied about being deceptive, and now, instead of making your argument, you are saying "PART of my argument is..." which is more deception. We all know the argument you made, I stated clearly what argument you made, I demonstrated that it was false, and now you think sending us all on a merry chase to beat around the bush is somehow going to redeem you. I don't have time for this nonsense. For the sake of patience and charity, you've got one more chance. Make your point, or take your works-based false doctrines back to where you learned them because they are not welcome here.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Kenneth Winslow

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2020, 07:57:20 AM »
Just as a reminder, I started this thread as a commentary on the Bible version issue to illustrate that modern counterfeit Bibles omit the qualifications for a person to be baptized.

The majority of this thread is a good example of why I'm always wary of people who, instead of starting their own conversation, hijack an existing one and turn it in another direction. Usually, in my experience, towards false doctrine.

Nehemiah 8:8 KJV — So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Jeanne

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2020, 08:04:53 AM »
Barry, by your logic, you're saying that the thief on the cross (the one who repented) was not saved because he was not baptised, which in turn would make Jesus a liar. Do you really want to go down that road? You're also saying that a person who cries out to Jesus on his death bed or in a plane about to crash also cannot be saved because they didn't get baptised before they died. Baptism is not a requirement in order to BE saved; it is a commandment to those who are ALREADY saved as outward confirmation of their inward regeneration. However, being baptised does not automatically mean that one is saved because there are plenty of false converts who have been baptised. Also, it is impossible for one to 'lose his salvation' because if they turn away from the gospel after having received it, that means they were never truly saved to begin with. This article explains that more clearly:

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/falseconverts.php

bluebird724

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2020, 08:57:46 AM »
Jeanne shows an important point. Let me highlight that here:

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou are in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when though comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

- Luke 23:39-43


The prisoner that was hanged with Christ showed (2) two important things for eternal salvation: 1. Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ and 2. Repentance of his sins. No where does it show here that the prisoner had to be baptized to be saved.


trox04

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2020, 02:29:13 PM »
I have already stated my point.
Quote
The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church

My last reply was an attempt to get to the core (read: PART) of our disagreement.
I believe Acts 2:41 is one whole thought and states that three thousand souls were added to the body of Christ because they were baptized.

I think you believe this verse is comprised of two independent thoughts, that is why I politely asked you to explain.
Quote
Do you agree with this statement? If not, please explain.

Instead of explaining, you threatened to ban my account.

You said
Quote
--The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.
But you also say
Quote
People who don't take the Bible seriously typically don't finish reading the verses they put under scrutiny.
- Christopher Johnson, Bible Contradictions: Was Abraham Justified by Works or Faith, May 20, 2014

How ironic.

If we can't come to an agreement on A=C, then the rest of my argument (B=C, A=B) is not worth discussing.

Moving on...
Quote
I stated clearly what argument you made
Yes, you did.
Quote
Barry is assuming that "baptism = being added to the church"

Quote
I demonstrated that it was false
Well, you tried.
Quote
Then it says, three thousand people were added to the church, and I would like to note that does not say that everyone who was baptized was added to the church because not everyone who gets baptized is a Christian.
Quote
Simon believed and was baptized, and yet, he was rejected by Peter.
Quote
That was the example I gave to support my argument.
But I debated your example:
Quote
I would argue that he was added to the church, but due to the bitterness in his heart, he lost his salvation.
I'd even say he got let off easy compared to Ananias and Sapphira. Satan filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Spirit. Were they not regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost? They were part of the congregation of those who believed.
So I ask you again. Were Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost since they were part of the multitude of them that believed?
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 4:32-35

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:1-3


One might claim that Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira were false converts based on your article of the such.
Now I will argue this point because its entire premise is a logical fallacy. It is more commonly known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
I will refer you to the church in Smyrna:
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelavtion 2:8-10

If these Christians (those in the church/body of Christ) were faithful unto death, they received the crown of life.
So, what happened if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death? Did they not receive the crown of life? Were they never Christians to begin with? How can one call them false converts if only God knows their hearts?
It seems logical to me that if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death, they did not receive the crown of life......even though they were Christians. Get it yet? Christians can lose their salvation (crown of life) by being unfaithful. But if after being unfaithful, they repent with Godly sorrow (as you correctly teach), they are added back into the fold.

Moving on to the context of 1 Peter 3:21...
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1 Peter 3:18-22

You say
Quote
What Peter is writing there has to do with the comparison of the ark in the days of Noah in an analogy to Christ, and how that baptism was not designed after the traditions of men.
It is very clear to me that Peter is referring to baptism in water, not the Holy Spirit. Yes, I have learned about baptism in the Holy Spirit. See how he references and denounces bath water (filth of the flesh)? It is likened to a bath, but instead is an answer of a good conscience toward God, which is what happens when people are baptized. He is saying that Noah's flood and baptism are similar, an antitype. And just like how Noah was saved from the wicked world through the flood, Christians are also saved from the wicked world through baptism. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:40-41

Hopefully that brings the context into clear focus for you. I would like to hear why you think this is referring to the Holy Spirit baptism.

Moving on the Kenneth's reply...
I completely agree with your point about the versions. My purpose was to reply to Jeanne's post with the baptism article, and Christopher's meme.

Moving on the Jeanne's and bluebird724's replies...
Yes, I really want to go down that road.
This is another logical fallacy known as False Dilemma or False Dichotomy. i.e. Either baptism doesn't save, or the thief didn't go join Jesus in paradise that day.
What if baptism (along with faith & repentance) does save AND the thief joined Jesus in paradise that day? Why is this not an option?
First, when Jesus said those words, the thief was subject to the Old Covenant. The thief had his sins forgiven by Jesus just like many others during His ministry. Not until Jesus died did the New Covenant come into force. Do you have any proof that the thief sinned between the moment Jesus died and the moment he died?
Second, we have no proof that he was not baptized before being crucified. He seemed very knowledgeable of Jesus and even the resurrection of the dead. It is possible that he had been exposed to the teachings of Christ and baptized my John. Do you really want to go down that road with no proof?

To the moderators:
You are given authority to discipline members who show disrespect on this forum according to Rule #1.
Quote
Examples of disrespect are (but not limited to) railing insults, breaking forum rules, lying, deception, false accusations, murmurings, cussing, etc.
Christopher has shown me disrespect several times.
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you did not come here seeking help to learn and understand; you came here to accuse in contention
This is a false accusation. Note the several questions I asked.
Quote
You were so enraged coming onto this forum that you did not even fully read what you were responding to
This is a false accusation. I fully read the baptism article before my post. There is no proof that I was enraged coming onto this forum. I came onto this forum with a sincere heart. I even followed the rules by posting in the New Members section within 48 hours.
Quote
Nope, you did not read what I wrote. You skipped it.
Another false accusation. How could I have responded to it if I did not read it?
Quote
No, because you're lying. You cannot lie and be sincere at the same time.
This is deception. Christopher cannot know if I am lying. How do you even tolerate this?
Quote
teaching false doctrine on the basis of Acts 2:41 by claiming that it says that you must be baptized to be saved
Blatant false accusation. I never said that. I said those who are baptized are added to the body of Christ. I also said those who are saved are added to the body of Christ. Then I made the logical conclusion based on these verses that being saved equates to being baptized.
Quote
and now you think sending us all on a merry chase to beat around the bush is somehow going to redeem you.
Lying, deception, false accusation. Seriously, how does one come to that conclusion? I was going right for the heart of the 'bush', that is, our core disagreement.

To Christopher:
I have read through most of your articles. I came to you as Aquila and Priscilla came to Apollos. I will pray for your heart to be open to the word. And I will gladly accept your reply with an open mind if you choose to do so.

creationliberty

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2020, 04:07:12 PM »
Okay, so what Barry is doing here is teaching false doctrine because he believes that the work of water baptism saves people. He does not want to say that directly, but his doctrine reflects that, and his testimony indicates that as well. That is why he is deceptive: Barry is not coming forward to talk about his true beliefs. He came here to start a fight; he did not come here to have this discussion.

I don't want to sit here and waste my time arguing with someone who believes he saved by his works, believes in "baptismal regeneration," and furthermore, attempts to convolute this subject to the point that the average person reading this cannot follow it. So, I'll demonstrate some of Barry's deception in a couple of examples he gave, and if you all want to handle anything else, you are welcome to do so.

Barry stated in this most recent post:
I believe Acts 2:41 is one whole thought and states that three thousand souls were added to the body of Christ because they were baptized.

Now, for those of you who were following this thread, I already responded to that and proved to him what he said was incorrect:
[v41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
So Barry says:
Souls added to what? The body of Christ. Who was being added? Those who were baptized.
Well, first of all, this is not an argument that makes the case for Barry's doctrine, namely that "baptism is required for salvation." Second, the Scripture does not say what Barry claims it says. I'll ask everyone reading this to go back up and read the verse and Barry's comment slowly and carefully.

--Barry claims that the Acts 2:41 says that those who were baptized were added to the church.
--The Bible in Acts 2:41 says that those who received Peter's preaching (i.e. heard and understood it) were baptized.

Then it says, three thousand people were added to the church, and I would like to note that does not say that everyone who was baptized was added to the church because not everyone who gets baptized is a Christian. (i.e. Barry is assuming that "baptism = being added to the church," which is not the case.)

So what happened took place in three steps:
  • Barry argued that Acts 2:41 says that those were baptized were added to the church.
  • I demonstrated that Acts 2:41 did not say that.
  • Barry repeated himself instead of rationalizing his position.
When a man ignores what is being said to him, and he repeats himself as a response without acknowledging what the other person is saying, then you have run into a situation in which that man will no longer hear. What it means to "rationalize" your position is when you walk through a logical process by quoting Scripture and explaining the interpretation of it alongside your argument, similar to what I did in the quote above. What Barry did was claim that he was following a logical process, and he gave us the following:

Quote
The logic I'm using to say that baptism is required for salvation is:
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is those who were baptized
B is those who were saved
C is being added to the church
Of course, most of you are not going to understand any of that, which is how he is doing sleight-of-hand to fool the people he is talking to. If any of you wonder why I have been writing to Barry with a such firm tone, you should hopefully understand after I explain this.

Allow me to interpret this for you in plain English; here is Barry's argument:
"If those who were baptized were added to the church, and those who were saved were added to the church, those who were baptized are those who were saved."
Barry said that THIS is the logic he was using for his argument, but he invoked a logical fallacy called "False Equivalence," or some of you might know it as comparing apples and oranges while calling them the same thing. The fallacy states that two things (i.e. A & B) share a similar characteristic (i.e. C), and therefore, they are the same thing, which is logically wrong, and it is the same as Barry calling apples and oranges the same by labeling them "round objects," while ignoring the many characteristics which make them two different things.

Let's look at an example of false equivalence:
  • Adolf Hitler was responsible for killing millions of people.
  • Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing millions of people.
  • Therefore, all evolutionists are responsible for killing millions of people.
Now, perhaps you could argue some philosophical truth to those statements, that there is a connection between the philosophy of evolutionism and the result of someone killing millions of people, but to accuse an evolutionist on the street of killing millions of people (i.e. that those two concepts are one and the same) is simply ludicrous. Likewise, there is a philosophical truth that there is a correlation between being born again in Christ and being baptized (i.e. because all those who have been saved are commanded to be baptized), but to call baptism and salvation the same thing is simply ludicrous.

To put it another way, Jesus told us that the world would hate us, and eventually, in the days of Revelation, we will be beheaded for Christ. (Rev 20:4) If we follow Barry's so-called "logic," since Christians will be beheaded for Christ, that means that all people who have been beheaded are automatically born again in Christ, and such an argument is absurd to say the least.

It is important to note a key word in Barry's supposedly "logical" argument, and that is his use of the word 'IF.' Not only is his statement a logical fallacy, but the word 'if' added to his argument also tells us that he does not know if his statement is true or false. He would not have to say "if" before "a = c," if he believed that those being baptized where automatically added to the church. This is why, in my explanation, I went on to give an example, providing Scriptural evidence to my argument, so that way Barry would not be able to claim that there was no example in Scripture where this had happened:
To provide correlating Scripture, let's look at Simon the sorcerer:
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
-Acts 8:13

Simon believed and was baptized, and yet, he was rejected by Peter:
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
-Acts 8:20-23

You cannot be in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness when you have been regenerated in Christ through the Holy Ghost. This is what Barry does not understand because he has never been regenerated. He believed that he was saved by his works (i.e. baptism), but was never born again in repentance and true faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, which is why he cannot understand this doctrine.

And yet, if you read carefully, that's EXACTLY what Barry did, which is why he accused me of using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy:
Quote
One might claim that Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira were false converts based on your article of the such.
Now I will argue this point because its entire premise is a logical fallacy. It is more commonly known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Thus, Barry's response to my argument about Simon the sorcerer was, "No Chris, that cannot be true, otherwise, my argument is wrong." Precisely. The problem is that Barry is actually using the "No False Scotsman" fallacy, which is a common fallacy that atheists use, and I explain that in more details in an article I wrote called:
The Atheist's 'No False Scotsman' Fallacy

The reason Barry is so desperately attempting to defend his deceptive and illogical claims is because he was not saved in the manner Scripture defines (while deceptively acting like we are in agreement on doctrine so he can fool others here), which is the manner in which the rest of us here were born again in Christ. Barry believes in another way to Jesus Christ than what Scripture teaches us. Barry believes he was saved by water baptism, and I can assure him, with certainty in the Word of God, that his belief in water baptism for the foundation of his salvation will end him up in hell and the lake of fire.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
-Revelation 1:5

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
-2Ti 3:13-14


Hopefully, you all will more clearly see how deceptive Barry is, and if he wants to continue being deceptive on this forum, then I will bid him a peaceful and pleasant day, and then personally show him the door because I am not going to let him stick around here, sneaking in comments here and there, trying to deceive new Christians into believing the heresies he was taught and adopted. If he really wants to believe what he is saying, he should join the Catholics or Adventists because, as far as I am aware, they are much more in line with Barry's false doctrine.

Remember this: If Barry really wanted to address me, he could have emailed me, but he came here on this forum because he wanted this to be public. He came here to pick a fight, and so he can make as many excuses as he wants, but thank God that He has given me enough discernment to see right through Barry's feigned words.

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
-Col 3:9

Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
-Proverbs 22:10
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

anvilhauler

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Re: Ignorance of Biblical Baptism
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2020, 12:50:55 AM »
When the gospel was preached, those listening would have made it very clear to them that being baptised in water was only the outward demonstration that they had already been baptised into Jesus' death when they had come to repentance and received forgiveness of sin via Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection.  Who would ever baptise someone without first explaining to them what baptism is all about?  The apostles in the early church certainly wouldn't have!

Matthew 20 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


So, what cup is Jesus referring to?  And what baptism is Jesus referring to?  It's not Jesus' baptism in water that was performed by John the Baptist!  They couldn't be baptised in to the baptism of John the Baptist    .....   because he's dead and gone from the scene and the Bible doesn't record of another person taking over that role after John the Baptist was gone.

Not only that, but the apostles were quite likely aware of what John the Baptist had to say to those who were unworthy when they turned up to the baptism site.  If any were unworthy in the sight of the apostles of being baptised in water they would likely have received much the same kind of reception as the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Matthew 3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Eating some bread and drinking some grape juice doesn't make a person a Christian who is admitted to the true church of Christ either.  If it did then all of those I work with would automatically be Christians because we had bread and grape juice and other food at an after work function a couple of years back.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)