Author Topic: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3  (Read 13115 times)

Fred

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God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« on: January 27, 2019, 04:39:57 PM »
Introduction

Contrary to popular Christian opinion and based on what God clearly states in his Word, God NEVER allows for divorce and remarriage, no matter the reason.  Many, if not most churches and Christians believe that God is against divorce but yet makes exception for adultery, abuse, abandonment, etc.  However, there is no Biblical basis for this.

God's plan has always been that 2-never-before-married-persons would enter into the marriage covenant for life, ending only in the death of one or the other.  The permanency of marriage is foundational to knowing the heart of God and seeing the picture of Christ and the church personified in each marriage.

Let's start with some verses.

     Luke 16:18  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever
     marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

     Mark 10:11-12  And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth
     adultery against her.  And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth
     adultery.

God is very clear in these verses.  If either the husband or the wife divorces his or her spouse and marries another, he or she commits adultery, no exception.

Then immediately the argument is made, what about the exception clause in Matthew?  Let's look at that verse.

     Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
     causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Point 1 - Misunderstanding of the exception clause

Countless Christians have jumped onto this phrase, "saving for the cause of fornication" to justify many reasons given for divorce and remarriage.  I believe that the misunderstanding of this phrase alone has done more damage to the Christian body than almost any other doctrinal error due to the millions of marriages and families that have been torn apart.

First of all, God cannot contradict himself.  He cannot forbid remarriage in 2 verses and then make an exception in another.  The apparent contradiction is not the fault of God but in our misunderstanding of the verses.  Secondly, the Greek word porneia, correctly translated as fornication in the KJV is incorrectly translated as adultery, sexual immorality, or marital unfaithfulness in other translations.  Fornication refers to sex between two unmarried persons.  Adultery refers to sex between a married person with anyone other than the covenant spouse.  An unfaithful married person commits adultery, not fornication.  Thirdly, during the time that the Bible was written, the betrothal period of Jewish couples before marriage was more significant than we are accustomed to today and essentially the Jewish couple became husband and wife before they had officially entered into the marriage covenant.  So the intended audience for the exception clause is for betrothed couples and furthermore, if the betrothed husband discovers that his betrothed wife has had relations with someone else then he can put her away.  Joseph also found himself in this situation when he discovered that his espoused wife was with child and wanted to put her away privately until the angel explained what happened.  In today's culture, although the betrothal period has lost prominence, if a fiance has discovered that the other has cheated on him or her, then that is grounds to end the engagement.

Point 2 - What therefore God hath joined together

The question can be asked, do you think that you are stronger than God?  The answer of course is no.  But if we are not stronger than God then how can we undo what God did?

     Matthew 19:6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not
     man put asunder.

Does anyone believe that we can break apart what God has joined together?  God himself joined the husband and wife.  They are no more two but one.  After God joins a couple, they are joined in Heaven for life.  We may go before a judge to dissolve the marriage before men, but the marriage is not dissolved in Heaven and likewise we go to the church before God to get married but we do not go the church to get divorced.  The divorce only happens before men.

Do not most say that if a remarried couple has remained faithful, then adultery has not occurred?  But to God all remarriage is adultery because the remarried spouse is committing adultery against the first spouse.  The original couple is still married in Heaven.  Only death ends the marriage covenant.

     Romans 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an
     adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be
     married to another man.

Only after the first husband dies is the wife freed from the original marriage covenant and free to remarry.

Point 3 - Quagmire of confusion from man's wisdom   

I would rather not spend time discussing man's wisdom, but I should point out a few things that need to be asked for those that believe that God allows for exceptions to divorce and remarriage.  For is it not man's wisdom that decides to what degree of abuse that justifies divorce and remarriage?  Is this only for physical abuse or also emotional abuse?  Does minor abuse, moderate abuse or severe abuse justify divorce and remarriage?  And is this not relative from one person to the next?  What constitutes adultery?  Discovering with strong evidence that adultery has occurred?  How about if the evidence is weak?  What about emotional affairs or online affairs for which there has been no physical union?  What constitutes abandonment?  Is it a spouse that has not returned home after 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years?

We would be foolish to think that we can decide what level of sin justifies divorce and remarriage.  Let's consider the hypothetical situation of a Christian single that meets a divorced Christian.  Should the Christian single first need to vet the divorced Christian to determine if the divorce is justified before God?  What criteria would he or she use?  What level of abuse or what type of adultery or what length of time of abandonment?

Only a quagmire of problems is presented when we attempt to justify our actions with man's wisdom and so again why it is imperative that we stop telling others that God allows for divorce and remarriage, when God clearly has never sanctioned it.

Point 4 - Picture of Christ and the church

In Ephesians chapter 5 God juxtaposes the relationship between the husband and the wife with Christ and the church.  This is not done without significance.  God intended that each marriage be a picture of Christ and the church.  Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church; wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ.  Marriage is to be a pictorial representation of Christ's relationship with us, his bride.  How awe-inspiring God is that he has ordained the marriage relationship and the relationship between Christ and the church and has interconnected the two.  There is more to this mystery than we may ever understand.

     Ephesians 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

In the same way that Christ does not divorce his church after sin is discovered and then finds and marries a new church, husbands are not to divorce their wives after sin is discovered and marry with someone new.  Although husbands are not sinless as Christ is, they need to live sin-free, but the discovery of sin does not justify wives to divorce their husbands and marry someone new.  Husbands ought to pray for their wives when sin is discovered and wives ought to pray for their husbands when sin is discovered.  May both husbands and wives strive to be more like Christ while reminding husbands that wives are like their church-type and reminding wives that husbands are like their Jesus-type.  And may husbands help their wives to become spotless and pure and may wives help their husbands to be like Jesus.

Point 5 - Perseverance in trials

All marriages will encounter difficulties throughout the course of the marriage.  Some difficulties may cause great suffering and others with lessor but continuous frustration, but none justify the abolition of the marriage.

At what point should husbands or wives decide to discontinue the endurance or perseverance of a trial?  Do we allow man's wisdom to decide?  What does God say?  Will God not bless those that endure to the end?  Are we long-suffering for Christ or do we choose to cut the suffering short and make ourselves happy?

     2 Tim. 3:12   Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

     2 Cor. 4:17   For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal
     weight of glory;

     Psalm 34:19   Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

     Psalm 119:71   It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

     Romans 5:3   And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

     1 Peter 2:19   For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

     James 5:11   Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen
     the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

     2 Timothy 4:5   But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of
     thy ministry.

     1 Corinthians 13:4,7   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not
     puffed up.  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

     James 1:12   Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,
     which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Point 6 - Passions of the heart of man

It is a desire of all men and women to be loved and to experience an intimate love with another person.  When a husband deprives his wife of love and respect or when a wife deprives her husband of love and respect, it is natural that a husband or wife would long for what is missing.  He or she after a period of deprivation or abandonment or abuse may step outside of the marriage for that love and respect.  He or she may say that a new acquaintance is his or her true "soul-mate" which oftentimes results in the absolution of the marriage and entrance into a new marriage.  Many men and women choose to follow their hearts over obeying God.  Often friends will advise those that are suffering within marriage, "God wants you to be happy", or "life is short, be with something that will truly love you".  What should we choose?  Should husbands and wives deprived of love find their own happiness or should they continue to obey God and endure the trial?  The passions and desires of the heart of man are very strong and not easily subdued but may be choose to continue to obey God.  Our heads may know what is right and wrong but our hearts justify many ungodly actions.

     Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

     Mark 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Conclusion

I hope that my views of the permanency of marriage as I understand it from God's Word can be a blessing to you.  These views may differ from the beliefs of this ministry but I pray that God's Spirit would guide you into all truth, as God's Spirit continues to guide me.  As well I know how difficult it is to continue to stand for a prodigal spouse.  May we continue to accept God's reproof in all areas of our lives and to let Him continue to refine us with fire so that we will be molded into the godly husbands and wives that are pleasing to Him and honouring to our spouses.  The teachings from the links here have also been a blessing to me:   http://marriagedivorce.com/ and http://rejoiceministries.org/.   The book, This Momentary Marriage by John Piper has also been a blessing to me.  Please note, I do not support the John Piper Ministry but this book was well written.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:46:20 PM by Fred »

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 01:18:20 AM »
Hi Fred

I really enjoyed reading that.  It is good to see that you did make a good posting when everything was looking rather dubious there for a while.  I'm not one of the administrators but have been here for quite a while and I do have to say that I was thinking "Oh no we have another one of those" but your posting has no doubt changed everyones thoughts and you quite clearly are capable of making a sound basis for what you write on the subject.

There is one definite point I do disagree with though.

Quote
We may go before a judge to dissolve the marriage before men, but the marriage is not dissolved in Heaven and likewise we go to the church before God to get married but we do not go the church to get divorced.

No, the rest of the church is not involved when people get married.  They may come to the wedding ceremony and observe but they are not a part in any way of the making of the covenant.

I have been "divorced" for twenty three years now and what you have written is what I have always believed.  My wife was abusive and a continual liar and when it was obvious to others who were prepared to see then she wanted out and to get as far away as she could and moved to the other end of New Zealand where I live.

Anyway, it is good you have made this interesting posting, but I still do think you messed up some of your previous postings a whole lot and it really did look like someone who lacked any humility (from my point of view) but there's no way I would now hold that against you forever.  I don't know, others may find other flaws in what you have written but such topics are really the kind of stuff we do look forward to discussing here   ....  and {gulp} may be very difficult to discuss.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

creationliberty

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 02:21:57 AM »
It should be noted that your offenses in other posts have not been address; you've simply ignored them. This is making you more suspicious as we continue; I thought you should know that since you likely have considered it, but I hope that you simply have not considered it. (i.e. It would be really bad if you had considered it and did nothing.)


Contrary to popular Christian opinion and based on what God clearly states in his Word, God NEVER allows for divorce and remarriage, no matter the reason.  Many, if not most churches and Christians believe that God is against divorce but yet makes exception for adultery, abuse, abandonment, etc.  However, there is no Biblical basis for this.

God's plan has always been that 2-never-before-married-persons would enter into the marriage covenant for life, ending only in the death of one or the other. 



God's plan for marriage, and His allowance for divorce in certain situations, are two different things. God planned for mankind to not sin, but He knew what would happen, and so He made a contingency plan, which is why we have the Lord Jesus Christ. To say that there is no such thing as divorce because God had a plan for marriage, is like to say, there is no such thing as sin because God had a plan for mankind; that's a fallacious introduction.


The permanency of marriage is foundational to knowing the heart of God and seeing the picture of Christ and the church personified in each marriage.


Exactly, which, if you had actually taken the time to read the book I wrote on marriage, instead of stopping a small fraction of the way through, you would have seen that no one here will disagree with that. The problem is that the analogy of the husband and wife to Christ and the church is not a sound starting point to disprove divorce in Scripture. That would be like making the argument that all Christians were intended not to live in houses, but rather in barns, because we are called sheep by an analogy; that's nonsensical.


Let's start with some verses.
     Luke 16:18  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever
     marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
     Mark 10:11-12  And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth
     adultery against her.  And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth
     adultery.
God is very clear in these verses.  If either the husband or the wife divorces his or her spouse and marries another, he or she commits adultery, no exception.
Then immediately the argument is made, what about the exception clause in Matthew?  Let's look at that verse.
     Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
     causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.



Correct, but you're leaving out Scripture.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
-Mark 10:5-9

It is the hardness of heart, whether in one or the other (but most often, both), that God allowed this; however, it should not be done if at all avoidable. Again, if you would actually read the book instead of answering the matter before you've heard it, you'd understand why.
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
-Pro 18:13

In addition, you're only going to these points, and not reading/studying the Bible the way that God instructed us to do so:
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
-Isa 28:10

God goes on to explain that He setup His Word in that way so that those who did not have proper understanding of Scripture would trip over themselves.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
-Isa 28:13

The good news is that I think I can save myself some time because, after scanning through the Scripture you posted, I can see that you purposely avoided certain Scriptures, just like you did in Mark. I disagree with Kevin, although he is a very kind man, and I highly respect his humility, I'm not sure he discerned the deception, but I see it clearly.

This is a pattern we've seen many times here on the forum, and trust me when I tell you, those people don't stay here very long. What they (and you) will do is quote specific verses, but then stop before you get to verses that contradict your presuppositional argument. For example, you will later go to Matthew 19:6, and I'll quote more of it:
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
-Mat 19:4-6

You're happy to quote that because if you cherry pick only these verses, it seems to support your fallacious argument, but if you keep reading, you'll get more details:
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
-Mat 19:7-9

It's interesting that allude to that verse, but you don't actually quote it. (How convenient.) So now, Jesus said that a couple sins if they divorce, UNLESS it's over the matter of one of the is fornicating, which, if you would have taken the time to read my book instead of just ignoring it, you would know why that is because it's explained more later (i.e. here a little and there a little).
The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
-1Co 7:4-5

Thus, the sexual gratification belongs to one another in a marriage, and that should not be defrauded (i.e. taking away what rightfully belongs to the other), but if one party in the marriage defrauds the other, which is fornication/adultery, then there is grounds for divorce, as Jesus pointed out.
I'm only writing this to you out of the patience that God has given me, because frankly, I'm running out of it. I've already written about these matters and explained it very thoroughly in the book, and I should not have to copy and paste them for you here because of your laziness/slothfulness, and because of your unwillingness to listen.


Countless Christians have jumped onto this phrase, "saving for the cause of fornication" to justify many reasons given for divorce and remarriage.  I believe that the misunderstanding of this phrase alone has done more damage to the Christian body than almost any other doctrinal error due to the millions of marriages and families that have been torn apart.

First of all, God cannot contradict himself.  He cannot forbid remarriage in 2 verses and then make an exception in another.



I'm going to make this one really simple for everyone to understand the fallacy of Fred's thinking, which he likely got from a worldly influence. If he repents (i.e. grief and godly sorrow), then we're more than willing to forgive, but so far, that's not been his heart. Let's look at a very simply commandment:
Thou shalt not kill.
-Exd 20:13
Obviously, if anyone kills anyone else, they have sinned, right? So according to Fred's philosophy (i.e. way of thinking), there is no such thing as a kill that is justified. Let's read two chapters later:
If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
-Exd 22:2

Now we have a contradiction somewhere (i.e. either with Fred or God) because the Bible is now saying there are certain circumstances under which God allows killing, even though He just said "Thou shalt not kill." I'm sure when it comes to Fred's philosophy or God's philosophy, you all will quickly know which one I'm going to choose.
The question we ought to ask ourselves is: Why did God allow killing under certain circumstances? Because of sin; that is, because of the hardness of hearts in thieves. Likewise, why did God allow divorce under certain circumstances? Because of sin, because of fornicators and adulterers, because of the hardness of their hearts.
(See "Can Christians Kill in Self-Defense" for more details.)
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart [i.e. a heart that is not broken-hearted over his sin] treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
-Romans 2:5-6

It's because of this ignorance on Fred's part that he will not see why a woman can divorce if her husband is physically beating her into a hospital. He will not see why a man can divorce if a woman is getting pregnant with other mens' children. Likely, and Fred would need to be very careful when commenting on this one, he doesn't even see that remarriage is allowed after the death of a spouse. (Don't misunderstand; I believe he probably does believe that, but he doesn't understand it, and I'm giving him fair warning when commenting on that subject because of the incoming snare that God talked about in Isa 28.)


The apparent contradiction is not the fault of God but in our misunderstanding of the verses.


Agreed. I want to end my post with that sentence; that was perfectly said.


Secondly, the Greek word porneia, correctly translated as fornication in the KJV is incorrectly translated as adultery, sexual immorality, or marital unfaithfulness in other translations.


And that's where I'm going to stop because that is where Fred starts using the "original Greek scam" that he learned to do from new-age church buildings and leavened preachers. For those of you who want to learn the truth about that, and why he's in error, please read through this teaching:
The 'Original Greek' Scam

In short, Fred's premise is fallacious, his arguments are contradicted by the Scripture, he cherry-picks verses, and he's using the "original Greek" scam as a method of study, likely because he also still goes to his lexicons and concordances, which are just as corrupt as new-age bible versions and come from the same source:
The Dangers of Using Lexicons and Concordances

Fred did not come here in humility to learn, as he stated himself; he came here in pride with contention to teach, and if he's going to insist on teaching false doctrine, he won't be welcome. Normally, I wouldn't have to be so strict on the matter, and I would be more open to discussion, but due to the nature of his previous posts and responses, the fact that his introduction has no testimony of Christ in it, nor any indication of a heart of repentance (i.e. grief and godly sorrow of wrongdoing), and because of that, I don't believe he's born again in Christ, and I'm not positioned to suffer him very long, but if you guys want to discuss this matter more with him, you're welcome to do so. (i.e. At the very least, it's always good to get some discernment practice in.)
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:14
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:09:01 PM by creationliberty »
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 05:20:28 AM »
Woe to me for answering too quickly before making the most of the evening light and digging some of the garden, but I knew that either Chris or Tim were going to come along after me with far more insight than I have.  I'm totally OK with that and as I have aged I am aware that I am nowhere near as sharp as I used to be and that is something I just have to live with and it is frustrating. I'm definitely here to learn and not to teach.

On the marriage side it is not something I think of too often as I like being on my own and doubt I would ever trust anyone again. But, I really do need to read the Marriage book again though, that was an excellent read the first time and I have basically forgotten just about everything I read. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 05:25:43 AM by anvilhauler »
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 02:21:55 PM »
I thought about this posting last night after I went to bed.  It is probably not that I'm not sharp due to aging but rather my job doing my head in all the time.  All the time I find I'm having to redesign and redevelop equipment because manufacturers haven't done their job and push sub-standard items out the door and don't care about the customer or the person who has to work on equipment or when it genuinely does need servicing. 

All too often after spending a day reading a manual and trying to get something to work correctly and then contacting the company I find that they are fully aware that the manual is wrong.  They are too lazy to put a correct version of the manual on their website.  That is something I definitely like about CLE as when an error is found the documentation is updated straight away. 

If I had read the surrounding material I probably would have caught Fred out just as I caught the "pastors" and all of the others out too.  After work yesterday, reading was the last thing I felt like doing.

Oh well in to it here for another day of designing and developing an impossible device for looking after dairy cows    .....  at least the boss now knows as I told him that I think this device is totally impossible and can't be done and now it has been considered as an investigation and feasability study.  The only thing I like about this job is that I get to learn a lot of new things.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 04:46:56 AM »
Thirdly, during the time that the Bible was written, the betrothal period of Jewish couples before marriage was more significant than we are accustomed to today and essentially the Jewish couple became husband and wife before they had officially entered into the marriage covenant.

I was thinking some more about this and surely this can't be true and the reasoning I give for my stance is this:

Luke 1 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


If the betrothal period was akin to marriage then God had directly undermined Joseph's position as the head of Mary by sending the angel to speak to Mary and not bringing the glad tidings to Joseph.  It doesn't comment that Joseph and Mary were even in company at the same place when the angel brought the news.  Although the betrothal situation is an official one the wife to be is still not in any way under the husband to be's juristiction. Not to mention that God also put a baby in Mary's womb without first consulting with Joseph.

I'm not sure if this is mentioned in the Marriage teaching   ....  if it is then you just read it again.  I was hoping to start reading that teaching again this evening but got caught up getting things done.  If I'm incorrect with what I have written then I'm happy to be corrected.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:57:23 AM by anvilhauler »
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

Jeanne

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 05:46:24 AM »
I don't remember if that bit is in the marriage book or not, either, but even if it is, Fred is still reading it for the first time here because he never read the whole thing. He just read a bit of the beginning of it and immediately came here to argue about it.

creationliberty

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 10:01:51 AM »
Haha, right? He wouldn't know anyway because he didn't read it. Amazing that he expects us to read all of what he writes, but he is not always willing to do the same for others.
According to his account, he has logged in yesterday evening and seen all these responses, but he's said nothing.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 10:26:03 AM »
Just to confirm, he logged in once three days ago, saw the response was not pleasant, and I'm sure he didn't bother to read anything else and just left because he hasn't logged back in since. (i.e. prior to this point, he was responding multiple times per day) I'm fairly convinced he was a false convert who said a sinner's prayer in a church building a long time ago, got mixed up in the "conspiracy ministry" movement and got convinced he found the truth, and now he thinks he a veteran Christian, so no one should dare to question his understanding. (That's one of the reasons I find the "conspiracy ministry" movement so dangerous.) The first response he gave flashed the pride of his heart, and I suspected things were going to go exactly the way they did. Just to confirm for everyone else, I'm going to also publish a post I made in our private church section (i.e. the public can't see it), so we could discuss the matter and our church could double check my discernment of the matter. Here it is:

January 25, 2019, 06:43:37 PM

I want to take a moment and write out why I'm suspicious of the new guy Fred on the forum. Perhaps I'm completely wrong, and I'm very open to that, but it's not looking good so far. Here's his introduction post:


My name is Fred as you can see and I'm currently living just south of London, Ontario, Canada - about 2 1/2 hours west of Toronto.  I'm also a fellow believer and very interested in truth and all things of God and to obey God in all ways and follow His Will for my life.  Although I have been a Christian since my teenage years, my greater awakening to truth started shortly after I became married in the mid 90's - first about false teachers with Hank Hanegraaff and then later about creation questions I had always wondered about but then finally received answers thanks to the Kent Hovind videos.  During these 25 years God has revealed more and more to me on many topics including health, the globalist agendas, pagan holidays, corrupted denominations, etc.   Although I have acquired a lot of knowledge, my spiritual journey has been a bit rocky and God has saw fit to humble me on more than one occasion.  It is my desire to serve God in all ways but the challenges, for which I will not make excuses have resulted in sin, for which I wish I wouldn't have engaged in.  My greatest challenge has been the separation from my wife 10 years ago and so may I successfully endure this trial and not sin further during this time.


A few things concern me, first of all, he just says he's a "fellow believer." How many times have we heard that? I meet people all the time who claim to believe on Jesus and they don't have a clue what He even teaches. So that tells me nothing.
Notice also that his "greater awakening" was never attributed to Christ; more or less, he seems to be attributing it to his marriage, which is what is starting to make me very suspicious about his "disagreements" with what I taught on marriage. I've challenged anyone, even pastors, to come forward and show me where I am wrong on the marriage subject because I think marriage is a very pure ordinance of God, and I would not want to teach the wrong thing, but no one has yet come forward; in fact, this will be the first, so I'm looking forward to it.
His aims against sin are great, but I'm not sensing any repentance of that sin. Perhaps someone else saw it, but I didn't. It's kinda' like he's always been "Christian" probably via "sinner's prayer" when he was a teen, and he doesn't understand the basic principles. Ask yourselves: Where was Christ in any of this testimony?


I first heard about this ministry when I started researching CS Lewis a few years ago following the revelation given by John Todd (a former high level warlock) stating that CS Lewis was a high level witch.  That revelation shocked me of course and so I investigated this further and came across teachings from this site.  This past week I re-listened to those talks from 2014 and today went onto this website to see what other teachings were available.  I noticed that there was a teaching on marriage and so read the first portion from that article which brings me to why I joined this forum.  Although I will become unpopular for having views that contradict that article I will attempt to present my views with humility.


Notice that, first of all, he hasn't heard hardly anything I've taught. And second, notice that he only read a tiny fraction of the book, and decided he wanted to come on here and argue against it.
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
-Pro 18:13

Notice that he's already looking to answer a matter before he's heard the whole thing. That seems to be contradictory to someone who claims that he has had a "greater awakening" and has been revealed the truth about a lot of things.


It is my hope to learn from other Christians here and participate in healthy and God-honouring discussions that would bring us closer to understanding God's truth in all things by "rightly dividing the the word of truth".


Again, where is Christ? His blood sacrifice on the cross? Repentance? Where is the Holy Spirit? Where is anything that reflects understanding of God's Word? I mean, Raymond joined right before Fred, and in his testimony, I can see repentance, and the salvation of Christ; plus, I've had email exchange with him in the past, so I've read more beyond that, and I was able to determine that Raymond seems, in all aspects, to be of Christ, but I do not get that same impression from Fred.
(Btw, Raymond was the one who requested this: http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=307.0)

My point is: Something's not right in my perspective. If some of you have a different understanding, please feel free to share it.

I'm not sure what he's going to argue on the marriage issue yet, but the way he talked about these matters in relation to his own marriage was very suspicious to me as well, and I wonder if that will have anything to do with the basis of his argument.


The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 02:16:36 PM »
Hopefully the whole experience will be the good shake up that he needs.  The deeply wounded pride might put him on the correct path to repentence.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 11:38:08 PM »
Please allow me first of all to apologize to all the readers that have read through this far and have witnessed the display of drama.  This was never my intention for this to develop.  Please understand that my argument for the permanence of marriage has nothing to do with me or the representatives of this website, but lies solely with the truth.

If the administrator has discerned that I am an unrepentant sinner due to the lack of evidence of repentance given in my introductory statements, then so be it.   Can I also discern that there is very little love shown on this website?  And I won't back this up with scriptural verses as these are well known.  I also have a Muslim friend that I have asked to read my post and she is astonished by the meanness in these dialogues - yes it is obvious to non-believers.

Now if I may proceed forward and address a few items raised in the responses:  First off, I know that many couples are hurting.  Every husband and wife is dealing with very serious hurts and many are wondering which way to go; should they continue to work through the difficulties and possibly suffer for an additional extended period or should they finally call it quits for the sake of peace of mind and sanity.  I see that the administrator is arguing for divorce under various circumstances which is in line with 99% of the Christian and non-Christian world, but I know without a doubt that this belief is incorrect and wicked. 

Please hear it again; a covenant marriage is not dissoluble.  Upon entering the marriage covenant nothing can dissolve the marriage except death and only death.  Absolutely nothing can invalidate a marriage and nothing can validate divorce and remarriage.  It does not matter if the husband's abuse has hospitalized the wife; it does not matter if the wife has had 10 affairs; it does not matter if the husband divorced his wife and remarried multiple times; the original marriage covenant is still intact.  The exception clause given in Matthew refers only to pre-marital sex between unmarried persons - hence the word fornication.  As well, there is no such thing as an innocent spouse, for even the so-called innocent spouse commits adultery upon remarriage.  And yes a widow or widower may remarry as the preceding marriage covenant terminates upon death.

Allow me to say again that the greatest blight upon Christianity and the earth at large has been the allowance of divorce and remarriage by the modern church.  As astonishing and horrible as this has become, the churches have in fact been at the forefront of the divorce and remarriage movement.  God states that he hates divorce (which means it is never to be contemplated in the strongest terms), yet so-called Christians make provision for it.  In contrast, Satan loves divorce and hates marriage.  To whom do Christians make their allegiance?  I suspect that God purposely added the exception clause as a strong delusion to Christians that would rather follow their passions than obey Him and that through the misunderstanding of the exception clause would believe a lie and condone sin.

Furthermore, Christians that later become convicted by the Holy Spirit of their adulterous remarriages need to exit the non-covenantal marriages and remain single or work towards reconciliation with their covenant spouses.  Even if a husband has divorced and remarried 3 times and the wife has divorced and remarried 5 times, the only legitimate and lawful marriage in God's eyes is the original covenant marriage; all the rest are illegitimate and will not receive God's blessing.

Allow me to address Matthew 19:7-8 since I have been asked to do so.

     Matthew 19:7   They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put
     her away? 8   He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your
     wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

This provision was given to unbelieving Israelite men, those with hard hearts.  So as Christians are we permitted to follow a practice given to unbelievers?  For God allowed unbelievers to divorce so that they wouldn't kill each other; peace is preferable to constant war.  But even so, these unbelievers will still be committing adultery if remarriage occurs since the covenant marriages are still intact despite the civil divorces.  The unbelieving secular world takes part in every sin that God hates but because they do does not give Christians allowance to follow suit.  Simply put, since God hates divorce, then for Christians this is forbidden.  For can you imagine two self-centred narcissistic Hollywood actors being forced to stay married?  It is for couples such as these that divorce is permitted, but even so, they commit adultery upon remarriage.

Lastly I am surprised that more readers have not commented to the original post, unless the administrator of this website has made it so obviously clear in his very critical response that any support for my understanding would be in clear violation to his opposition.  I am not opposed to criticism but I do not like to see an atmosphere of fear where others do not feel that they are at liberty to respond, good or bad.  So welcome readers, please give me your thoughts good or bad.  Let's all keep learning together.  God bless the administrator of this site and God bless all the readers that have come for a greater understanding of the marriage subject and let me apologize again for the drama that has ensued. God bless you all.



Jeanne

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2019, 12:44:14 AM »
First of all, fornication refers to ANY type of sex outside of marriage; adultery is just specific to a married person having sex with someone other than his/her spouse.

FORNICA'TION, noun [Latin fornicatio.]

1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.


http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/fornication

Therefore, your argument that fornication is only between unmarried persons is invalid.

Second, I don't care how much a person may claim to be a Christian, I don't believe any person who would habitually abuse their spouse or make a habit of having affairs could truly be of Christ to begin with, so either staying married or getting a divorce would not have any more effect on that person's eternal destination than any other sin.

Thirdly, no one here is afraid to contradict Christopher Johnson; I have done so many times in the past. I can't speak for everyone else, but I never responded to your OP because I agree with everything Chris said and I have nothing to add to it. I suspect that is probably the case with others here, as well, but I'll let them speak for themselves if they wish.

Finally, we take a very firm stance on false doctrine here and we take the truth of Scripture with the utmost seriousness. If you feel that being told the truth or being called out for deception is uncharitable or mean-spirited, that just proves that you are not open to correction and it further calls into question whether you have truly come to repentance or not. (None of what you have said so far indicates that you have.)

It is not the purpose of this forum to make people feel good about themselves or their sin, but rather to judge righteous judgement and to rebuke when it is needed. Above all, it is to protect the church from any type of false teaching or doctrine.

Please read:

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/repent.php

But, since you never read the entirety of the marriage article and just came here to argue based on the small portion of it you did read, I doubt you will read this, either.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 12:52:46 AM by Jeanne »

ThomasHGW

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 01:38:42 AM »
From fred:
Quote
Allow me to say again that the greatest blight upon Christianity and the earth at large has been the allowance of divorce and remarriage by the modern church
Thats the "greatest blight upon Christianity and the earth at large"? Seriously? That's number one?
Quote
For God allowed unbelievers to divorce so that they wouldn't kill each other;
is there scripture for this statement?
Quote
Can I also discern that there is very little love shown on this website?  And I won't back this up with scriptural verses as these are well known.  I also have a Muslim friend that I have asked to read my post and she is astonished by the meanness in these dialogues - yes it is obvious to non-believers
From Jeanne
Quote
It is not the purpose of this forum to make people feel good about themselves or their sin, but rather to judge righteous judgement and to rebuke when it is needed.
+ 1

I agree with what had been said, there's not much else to say Fred. It sounds like you need to get your priorities straight before you dive into trying to disprove "false doctrine"
The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.   -Psalms 119:72

Chris

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 01:48:48 AM »
Introduction

Point 3 - Quagmire of confusion from man's wisdom   



Introduction

Point 1 - Misunderstanding of the exception clause

Secondly, the Greek word porneia, correctly translated as fornication in the KJV is incorrectly translated as adultery, sexual immorality, or marital unfaithfulness in other translations.  Fornication refers to sex between two unmarried persons.  Adultery refers to sex between a married person with anyone other than the covenant spouse.  An unfaithful married person commits adultery, not fornication.  Thirdly, during the time that the Bible was written, the betrothal period of Jewish couples before marriage was more significant than we are accustomed to today and essentially the Jewish couple became husband and wife before they had officially entered into the marriage covenant.  So the intended audience for the exception clause is for betrothed couples

I suspect that God purposely added the exception clause as a strong delusion to Christians that would rather follow their passions than obey Him and that through the misunderstanding of the exception clause would believe a lie and condone sin.


So, if I understand your position, the use of the word wife is incorrect and should be betrothed instead, but God has authored his word in order to confuse those that read it.

From your own argument, how can you not see that you are using man's wisdom here?  That greek word πορνεία primarily means prostitution.  So what?  The bible is our authority.  We are to interpret scripture with scripture.  Can you give an example in scripture where one is called husband or wife in the betrothal period?

 1 Corinthians 14:33   
    For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Maybe you are confused because you are not hearing from God's word.

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 05:28:25 AM »
Quote
Please allow me first of all to apologize to all the readers that have read through this far and have witnessed the display of drama.

Huh?  Why make an apology when you think you are in the right?   ....  a person makes an apology when they are in the wrong.  What you are displaying there is just pure arrogance.  Yes, it is a display of drama  ....  you come across as some sort of drama queen   ....  especially when you write something like that.

Quote
I also have a Muslim friend that I have asked to read my post and she is astonished by the meanness in these dialogue ...

Huh?  As a "Christian" you get someone who is definitely not a Christian and is therefore not filled with God's Holy Spirit and love and teaching to man to critique the material that is written.  Can you see a problem with that at all?  When you answer this question make it as a short and separate post, DO NOT post any more than about 10 lines for your answer.

Anyway, back to the topic of marriage.

Deuteronomy 24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4 her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


Have you ever read that which is written above?  Possibly (almost certainly) not.  You have been proven to be wrong on everything you have written.

When Jesus was teaching they were still under the Mosaic covenant too so the above rules were applicable at the time.  The Mosaic covenant was that last covenant that God replaced with a new covenant   ....  it sure looks like those covenants aren't set in concrete (so to speak).
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

creationliberty

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
Please allow me first of all to apologize to all the readers that have read through this far and have witnessed the display of drama.  This was never my intention for this to develop.  Please understand that my argument for the permanence of marriage has nothing to do with me or the representatives of this website, but lies solely with the truth.
I will not respond directly to Fred, as he will not hear me, but I will speak to everyone else reading; though some of you have already given good answers, and I may repeat something that one of you have already said, I want to help any on-looking Christians be able to exercise and grow their discernment against false converts like Fred. His latest response now confirmed for me that he is not of Christ, and will refuse to hear anyone who would try to tell him of the truth of Christ, because it is not the Christian God of the Bible that Fred wishes to follow, rather, he desires only the false ecumenical (i.e. one-world religious) "jesus."

If Fred was speaking the truth, it would not matter how much "drama" has sprung up. For that matter, I don't know what drama he is talking about. I've done nothing but tell him the truth, protecting the church from his false doctrines, and so, if there has been any drama, it has been solely from him. I don't see any drama; rather, I see a prideful goat coming in among the sheep to disrupt their understanding. Fred has refused sound doctrine, and insists on calling his fallacious opinions "truth," which is why the man is dangerous; believing he is a teacher in Christ, when he is, in fact, a false convert.
(See "False Converts vs Eternal Security" here at creationliberty.com for more details.)

He believes it is impossible for us to discern that information by only the few posts he has made, but that is because he does not understand the truth of God's Word and that's because he does not have the Spirit of God. He thinks such doctrine, like that of false converts is foolishness, and could never apply to him, but he does not judge himself.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
-1Co 11:31
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-1Co 2:14


If the administrator has discerned that I am an unrepentant sinner due to the lack of evidence of repentance given in my introductory statements, then so be it.   Can I also discern that there is very little love shown on this website?  And I won't back this up with scriptural verses as these are well known.  I also have a Muslim friend that I have asked to read my post and she is astonished by the meanness in these dialogues - yes it is obvious to non-believers.
Perhaps Fred is unaware, but the phrase "so be it," would be him consenting to the truth of the statement. Is he then confessing that he is not of Christ? I doubt it. That means he's just lying, or simply saying "whatever," taking the matter lackadaisically, rather than seriously, as he ought. He goes back to the quick-defense one-liner that nearly all new-age churchgoers go to: "You guys aren't very loving."
Although I don't believe Fred has been loving to us in the least, I have not yet accused him of not being loving towards us. Why? Because if a man comes to tell me the truth, or that he believes he is telling me the truth, I know that love is a selfless sacrifice, and so if a man comes to someone else to warn him of the truth, and the danger of sin, that is love. Fred also believes that, otherwise he would not have come to here to tell us his doctrine (even though it is false), and yet, in total repulsive hypocrisy, he turns around and tells us that our efforts to tell him the truth is not loving. This is hypocrisy at its most perfect example, and when Fred ought to be ashamed of himself, he instead glories (boasts of his own supposed love) in his shame.
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
-Phil 3:19

However, now that Fred has shown his true colors (namely, that he has tried to disguise himself even more than he did when he first joined, showing a lot more deception in his heart), I will most certainly accuse him of not knowing the first thing about love, and hating his friends. The fact that he has a "Muslim friend" shows that he does not love or care about her in the least because, if he cared about that woman, he would have warned her of the coming wrath of God onto those who follow after false gods. Hell and the lake of fire is coming for all those who follow Islam, and not only does Fred not care one ounce for her soul, he doesn't care at all about the Lord Jesus Christ, more willing to yoke together and fellowship with the world and those who hate the Christian God of the Bible, further demonstrating how far his heart is from Christ.
(See "Islam: A Religion of Terror" here at creationliberty.com for more details.)
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
-Mat 15:8

Fred refuses to acknowledge his own status as an adulterer in this manner:
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
-James 4:4
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
-Eph 5:11
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
-2Co 6:14-18

He won't back up his statements with Scripture, not because they are "well known;" after all, if we are not abiding by them, then it should be assumed that we don't understand them. No, that is not the reason; he does not back them up out of fear because he knows that people here do know the Scripture and understand them, and he is afraid of being exposed in his hypocrisy.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
-John 13:19


Now if I may proceed forward and address a few items raised in the responses:  First off, I know that many couples are hurting.  Every husband and wife is dealing with very serious hurts and many are wondering which way to go; should they continue to work through the difficulties and possibly suffer for an additional extended period or should they finally call it quits for the sake of peace of mind and sanity.  I see that the administrator is arguing for divorce under various circumstances which is in line with 99% of the Christian and non-Christian world, but I know without a doubt that this belief is incorrect and wicked.
I'm sure I don't have to inform everyone that I do have a name, and it is not "administrator;" Fred seems not be able to understand that concept. I answered his points, demonstrating his error both reasonably and Scripturally, and you can see how he responded; with a vague opinion based on his feelings. This is why I generally stop wasting my time with men like this, because they won't hear, but for the benefit of the church, I am responding to you all.
It should also be noted that "99% of the Christian and non-Christian world" is a nonsensical statement. It's just the world. There is the world, and the church. I would say the mass majority believe you can get divorced for ANY reason, and that is not something I am in agreement with, but Fred can't know that because he won't read what I've written, and refuses to gain any understanding on the matter. How is it possible to help a man who covers his ears?
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
-Mat 13:14-15


Please hear it again; a covenant marriage is not dissoluble.  Upon entering the marriage covenant nothing can dissolve the marriage except death and only death.  Absolutely nothing can invalidate a marriage and nothing can validate divorce and remarriage.  It does not matter if the husband's abuse has hospitalized the wife; it does not matter if the wife has had 10 affairs; it does not matter if the husband divorced his wife and remarried multiple times; the original marriage covenant is still intact.  The exception clause given in Matthew refers only to pre-marital sex between unmarried persons - hence the word fornication.  As well, there is no such thing as an innocent spouse, for even the so-called innocent spouse commits adultery upon remarriage.
Fred pleads with you to hear the matter again, even though we already heard it the first time, and he didn't present sound doctrine. Saying it really loud and passionately won't change the error.

Now let me show you all the error of relying on lexicons and concordances, which Fred has been taught to do by the leavened church buildings he clings to:
fornication (n): the incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman
(See 'fornication', American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1828, retrieved Jan 31, 2019, [webstersdictionary1828.com])
Fornication involves anything that is sexual misconduct outside of marriage. That could be an unmarried man with an unmarried woman, a married man with an unmarried woman, or an unmarried man with a married woman. Even Noah Webster also points out that fornication can mean adultery, because it is sexual misconduct outside the bounds of marriage, and even references to Mat 5:32 in his dictionary, so he's in agreement with me.
Now, of course, many of you may remember that Fred argued that the marriage covenant is an analogy to the covenant between Christ and the church, which, if he had been willing to act like an adult in his understanding (1Co 14:20) and read the teaching I did on the matter, Fred would have learned that I teach the same thing. The problem is that Jesus, when speaking to the angel over the church in Thyatira, says that the church committed "fornication," which is adultery:
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
-Rev 2:21

And furthermore, He goes on to point out that it is adultery, using the terms fornication and adultery interchangeably.
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
-Rev 2:22

The adultery of the church (wife) against Christ (husband) is called both fornication and adultery, because, though the two terms have exclusivity, they also contain the same meaning. However, Fred denies this, and clings to his worldly sources (i.e. lexicons and concordances) so he can cling to his false doctrine.
(See "The Dangers of Using Lexicons and Concordances" here at creationliberty.com for more details.)

And yes a widow or widower may remarry as the preceding marriage covenant terminates upon death.
I warned Fred to be careful about making statements on this, and in the pride of his heart, he did not heed my warning. Now he's stepped into snare of God's Word, and there is no escape.
Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
-Mat 22:24-30

This means that Fred believes that a husband and wife is freed from the bondage of the law of marriage at that point. Fred also states that he believes no one is eligible for divorce under ANY circumstance. Now let's look at another Scripture:
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
-1Co 7:10-15

Again, that can be found in the book I wrote on the matter. In such a case, the man or woman who is of Christ, and their spouse departed from them, they are free to marry again under that circumstance because they are no longer under bondage. They are freed from the bondage of the law in the same way as being freed in a death, and Fred demonstrates that he does not understand the Word of God, but in arrogance, believes he is in a position to teach others.
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself?
-Rom 2:19-21
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:12-14


Allow me to say again that the greatest blight upon Christianity and the earth at large has been the allowance of divorce and remarriage by the modern church.  As astonishing and horrible as this has become, the churches have in fact been at the forefront of the divorce and remarriage movement.  God states that he hates divorce (which means it is never to be contemplated in the strongest terms), yet so-called Christians make provision for it.  In contrast, Satan loves divorce and hates marriage.  To whom do Christians make their allegiance?  I suspect that God purposely added the exception clause as a strong delusion to Christians that would rather follow their passions than obey Him and that through the misunderstanding of the exception clause would believe a lie and condone sin.
What Fred calls "Christianity" is likely not the same as what we call Christianity. Since he befriends Muslims, that provides evidence that he's part of the ecumenical movement, therefore, he has no idea what the church really is. That being said, for someone to say that divorce is the "greatest blight" upon Christianity would be contradicted by his fellow churchgoers who say that abortion is the greatest blight, or others who would say sodomy is the greatest blight, but none of them go the Scripture on the matter; they're only judging by their own personal feelings.
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:24

These are the things that God hates with the utmost hatred, as He has stated:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
-Proverbs 6:16-19

God mentions lies twice. Lying would be the biggest problem, right next to pride because a prideful heart that lies against the truth is what keeps people like Fred from coming to repentance (i.e. grief and godly sorrow of his sin).
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
-2Co 7:10
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
-Luke 13:3


Furthermore, Christians that later become convicted by the Holy Spirit of their adulterous remarriages need to exit the non-covenantal marriages and remain single or work towards reconciliation with their covenant spouses.  Even if a husband has divorced and remarried 3 times and the wife has divorced and remarried 5 times, the only legitimate and lawful marriage in God's eyes is the original covenant marriage; all the rest are illegitimate and will not receive God's blessing.
So he lied to all of you. I'll quote Fred, so we're all on the same page:
Contrary to popular Christian opinion and based on what God clearly states in his Word, God NEVER allows for divorce
Yet, he is telling those others who remarried that they should divorce, which would be a cause for divorce, or in other words, Fred believes remarriage is a cause for divorce. He's clearly contradicted himself.

Allow me to address Matthew 19:7-8 since I have been asked to do so.
Matthew 19:7  They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
This provision was given to unbelieving Israelite men, those with hard hearts. So as Christians are we permitted to follow a practice given to unbelievers?

That's the ridiculous part of Fred's argument is because he's accusing you all of practicing divorce and remarriage. What's interesting is that, among our church, we have only one person who has divorced and remarried, and that was before she was saved. Everyone else is either married to their first spouse, or if divorced, they are divorced because they became believers on Christ, and their spouse is an unbeliever who departed. (i.e. So far, they've remained single.) More absurd is that Fred has agreed to "so be it" with the analysis that he is not of Christ, and yet, he is saying "we" as if all of us are yoked together with Fred, when we are not, because he is not of Christ. I don't know how else to get across to Fred that he will not find like-mindedness and fellowship here because until he comes to repentance to acknowledge the truth, we do not take part with him.
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
-Rom 16:17


For God allowed unbelievers to divorce so that they wouldn't kill each other; peace is preferable to constant war.
I guess he's once again not giving us Scripture on that because he assumes we're all familiar with it. (i.e. He came here to supposedly "teach" us the truth, but assumes we know the Scripture; that's nonsensical.) I am unfamiliar with that passage, so I'd like to hear what Scripture he got that from; although this is likely the last I'll waste my time responding to his foolishness and false doctrines, so I guess it doesn't matter whether I inquiry about it or not (especially when I confident it doesn't exist). Just to be clear, I could care less about Fred's opinions; I only care about what God has to say.

But even so, these unbelievers will still be committing adultery if remarriage occurs since the covenant marriages are still intact despite the civil divorces.
And that shows once again he didn't read my book on the matter because he doesn't understand the truth behind marriage licenses and what they are. (i.e. I covered that in Chapter 3.)

The unbelieving secular world takes part in every sin that God hates but because they do does not give Christians allowance to follow suit.  Simply put, since God hates divorce, then for Christians this is forbidden.  For can you imagine two self-centred narcissistic Hollywood actors being forced to stay married?  It is for couples such as these that divorce is permitted, but even so, they commit adultery upon remarriage.
Fred is arguing that, for those who do not have the laws on divorce (i.e. God's written laws), they are permitted to divorce, but those who have the laws on divorce, they are not permitted. In simple terms, those who have permission in writing can't do it, and those who don't have permission in writing can do it. That is so nonsensical and absurd, I don't even know where to begin; in short, Fred's conjecture in this paragraph eliminates the need for God to write it down at all.

Lastly I am surprised that more readers have not commented to the original post, unless the administrator of this website has made it so obviously clear in his very critical response that any support for my understanding would be in clear violation to his opposition.  I am not opposed to criticism but I do not like to see an atmosphere of fear where others do not feel that they are at liberty to respond, good or bad.
To be clear, Fred is accusing you all of being afraid of me because he thinks you guys follow me like a cult leader instead of following Christ. That's real firm slap in the face to you all, and I'm surprised more Christians here didn't take offense to that.

So welcome readers, please give me your thoughts good or bad.  Let's all keep learning together.
Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
-Psalm 12:1-2

I am not yoked together with Fred, but rather, he's trying to drag us into his camp, being part of the new-age ecumenical (i.e. one-world) movement that follows their version of a false christ. I suppose I should speak one thing directly to Fred: WE ARE NOT BRETHREN. You are a false convert that follows a different "jesus." If you want to learn about the real Jesus, we can show you him, but you have already demonstrated that you are unwilling to hear the matter.

God bless the administrator of this site and God bless all the readers that have come for a greater understanding of the marriage subject and let me apologize again for the drama that has ensued. God bless you all.
It does no good to Fred's soul to hide behind "God bless you." The Catholic Pope says the same thing, but I cringe and feel nauseous when he says it because I know he is not of God; he profanes the Christian God of the Bible in his doctrine and his actions. So too am I repulsed when false converts hide behind words they do not understand, like "love," seeking a false peace instead of sanctifying themselves because they have no repentance in their hearts. Fred friends and yokes himself together with people who belief in doctrine that Jesus is not the Christ (i.e. Islam), furthermore seeking comfort and wisdom from those who profane the name of Christ, believing that He is not God in the flesh, and on that matter, we have more specific instructions:
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
-2Jo 1:9-11
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
-Luke 12:51

(See "The Biblical Understanding of Sanctification" here at creationliberty.com for more details.)

Again, Fred did not come here for fellowship (he stated that himself in his introduction), nor would he find it if he did because he is not brethren in Christ. This response he gave further confirms my suspicions that he said some repeat-after-me sinner's prayer a few decades ago and thought he was saved, but he was never taught the doctrine of repentance (i.e. grief and godly sorrow of wrongdoing that must be given by God - 2Ti 2:25), and therefore, he is a false convert that is lifted up in his pride, and thinks that if he feigns humility, by saying "God bless you," it will hide his heart, but Jesus said we can know this man's heart by what he's already said:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18

(See "The Dangers of Using Lexicons and Concordances" here at creationliberty.com for more details.)

I say these things for the good of Fred's soul, that he might be saved before the Day of Judgment, but he doesn't want to hear that. Thus, I'm done with him; I can't talk to a man who doesn't want to hear. He should just depart, and I'm ready to show him the door. However, if you guys want to talk with him more, that's up to you.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Fred

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 04:28:17 PM »
That's quite the chastisement from the administrator.  Maybe accept that in your eyes I'm a lost cause.  Anyhow moving along...

Dear brothers and sisters,

It would appear that most Christians have become so fully brainwashed by the divorce and remarriage cult that it is now almost impossible to undo.  Why of all people would Christians defend it the strongest?  Almost all will agree that marriage is permanent, but then give allowances.  So which is it?  Is it permanent or not, because if any allowances are given then permanency cannot be ascribed. 

People will say that the act of adultery authorizes divorce.  So who has weighted adultery as the greatest sin?  For there are many ways that couples sin against each other and I'm sure some are more grievous than others but who has decided that adultery is the greatest sin?  Often the "innocent spouse" is not so innocent.  No one knows what goes on inside each marriage.  What drove the other spouse to seek love elsewhere?  Often the so-called innocent spouse by way of sin precipitated the other to commit a different sin.  Regardless of which sin men say is more grievous, all sin is equal before God.

It seems that many people that because of their selfish desires and sinful hearts are intent on finding loopholes in the Bible.  So even though God is very clear where he states that he hates divorce (Malachi 2:16), where he tells husbands that they may not divorce their wives (1 Cor 7:11), where he tells wives not to separate from their husbands (1 Cor 7:10), where he states that all who divorce and remarry commit adultery (Mark 10:11-12), it would appear that most people are not content to accept God's words as written but look to what the Pharisees asked Jesus in Matthew 19: "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?".  How does Jesus respond to this charge?  He says, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.  And I say unto you...".  The same language is used in Matthew 5:  "it hath been said.....but I say unto you".  It seems that most Christians would prefer to follow the commandments given by Moses and followed by the Pharisees than to follow God.

One of the responders provided a definition for fornication from the American Dictionary of the English language as follows:

     http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Fornication:  The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons,
     male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.

What a bizarre and ambiguous definition.

Let's see some definitions from other sources:

     https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication:  In legal use there is a difference between adultery
     and fornication. Adultery is only used when at least one of the parties involved (either male or female) is married,
     whereas fornication may be used to describe two people who are unmarried (to each other or anyone else)
     engaging in consensual sexual intercourse.

     https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fornication:  1.  Sexual intercourse, especially on the part of an unmarried person. 
     2.  (law) The act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman which does not by law amount to
     adultery.

Fornication is indeed sex between unmarried persons only.  God is not superfluous with choice of words in the Bible.  But if as many suggest that fornication is interchangeable with adultery, then why does God list both words in the Bible?

     Galatians 5:19-21   Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,
     uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
     Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you
     in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Even the famous Matthew verses use both words because fornication and adultery are separate types of acts.

God himself also shows us the definition of fornication in the following passage:

     1 Cor. 7:1-2   Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 
     Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Now even beside the point that most men and women who are driven by their passions will do as they please and will seek love wherever they can find, and will jump from marriage bed to marriage bed in the hope finding true love, but does anyone consider the children?  How many children are now living in broken homes because of the divorce and remarriage epidemic, thanks largely to Christians?  I have heard that of all occupations the greatest divorce rate is amongst pastors.  Wow!  So then it is not surprising that most pastors would counsel their flocks likewise.  Beware pastors and like-minded Christians!

     Luke 17:1-2   Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him,
     through whom they come!  It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into
     the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

How many children are now suffering because one parent exercised any number of grounds given for divorce?  How many dads no longer see their children thanks to corrupt and biased legal systems?  How many grandparents no longer see their grandchildren?

I am so disgusted and deeply saddened that of all people, Christians would fight tooth and nail to defend the despicable acts of divorce and remarriage!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:33:49 PM by Fred »

strangersmind

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 04:58:49 PM »
Fred to me it sounds like this is not about what the bible say but you trying to justify something.

Are you hurt because you are divorce because of adultery? 

Jeanne

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 06:32:04 PM »
Fred, you obviously are unwilling to listen to anything anyone says to you. We are NOT your brothers and sisters because you are not of Christ. You also refuse to call any of us by name. Chris is just 'administrator' to you and I am no more than 'one responder'. In case you were unaware, Christians do not behave that way toward one another.

Since you have come into our house, insulted and ridiculed us all (while pretending that you're one of us) I have no choice but to kick you out.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:43:27 PM by Jeanne »

anvilhauler

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Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 06:33:29 PM »
Dear brothers and sisters

Yes, we are brothers and sisters with each other, but that is not extended to you   .....   as it has been made so evident you are not of Christ.

Fred, where is your separate posting in 10 lines or less as to why you have a Muslim friend?  Chris Johnson's last post addressed this issue too.

You are a lost cause.  Chris Johnson is keen to just show you the door.  I was hoping you would be gone by now and we would never read anything from you again.

We all hope you come to repentence and that you become a Christian and that your Muslim friend does too.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)