Author Topic: ALCOHOL  (Read 433 times)

Offline Matt

  • (LVL0) Newly Registered
  • Posts: 12
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Matt
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
ALCOHOL
« on: April 20, 2017, 12:15:04 PM »
This is a subject I thought was resolved in my mind until I read the article.
I've actually read this article a couple times if not more and discussed it with Chris some too.
Just wanted to get some more input on this subject.

First of all, as I've told Chris, I'm not what you would call a drinker I don't think. I've went
probably months or even years at times with a drink of alcohol, but I have drank wine on occasion.
My parents never drank, with the exception of my dad keeping a bottle of wine for medicinal
purposes (I know it didn't drink much because the same bottle would stay around for months or
even years). I know it comes down to some people believe all wine that is talked about in the
Bible is alcoholic. So I'm not trying to justify drinking (Chris I think you've said that most or all of the time
when someone doesn't take your stand on this matter it's because they're trying to justify
their lust. I'm not sure I would say that). I just would like to know what is right for myself.

Actually what got me thinking on this subject again is our visit to Dr. Larry Rawdon in Florence
Alabama who I highly recommend for help with health issues. He uses the asyra pro which
analyzes the impedance and reactive capacitance of the body's energetic fields. And of course
having you drink fresh fruit and vegetable juices, taking natural supplements, and giving you
a list of the raw fruit or vegetables that would best suit a person's needs.

I know some people like George Maulkmus with hallelujah acres believe its best, when trying to
heal your body, to avoid alcohol all together. Dr. Rawdon, I thought, had this mindset as
well, but at our checkup he said lots of fermented foods including small amounts of organic
wine would be good for our gut.

Now I know, Chris, from you article and our conversations that you say the Bible would be
contradicting if it was saying we could drink alcohol, but like I've heard you say many times, it
is about looking at the context. I've always understood the context to be that to get drunk
is a sin.

Maybe some of you have studied the history and the customs of the Jews and could explain
the way of preserving the food supply. I always assumed that to preserve the juices they
would be fermented.

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL7) Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 952
  • Edification: 42
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
Matt, I don't know if you've noticed, but you didn't make a Scriptural argument; all you did was say "it is about looking at the context." I agree, and I have actually questioned a few times if I went too hard on the subject, so I go back to Biblical definitions and read the context:

Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
-Pro 23:30-31


Now, notice it says "they that tarry LONG at the wine," so what the alcohol drinker will argue is that they don't tarry long. I shouldn't have to go over these verses because Matt already knows them, but since he's posting this on public forum where other new Christians are reading this, I have to re-explain it.

If we keep reading:
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
-Pro 23:32


This is where fermentation starts to turn the non-alcoholic wine (i.e. grape juice) into alcoholic wine. The process of fermentation begins before wine turns alcoholic, and fermentation can also take place without any alcohol involved.
From the article called "A toast to your health: Because fermented beverages can be nonalcoholic too," it says:
By definition, fermented foods are foods that have undergone microbial transformation by various yeasts and bacteria, which produce beneficial acids including lactic acid. It is this high concentration of lactic acid that preserves food by destroying the harmful bacteria, which can decompose food and sometimes make you sick.

Fermentation is not always an alcohol-related product, but when wine (in context of grape juice, which was most popular at the time, and still is today), gives the color that alcohol gives, and "moveth itself," which is what happens when people make wine or beer (i.e. the beginnings of turning the sustenance of food into harmful alcohol), then God says not even to look at it. This is not to say that looking at a beer will send you to hell, don't misunderstand, but it is a warning to stay away from it because it is not pleasing to God.

If any of you out there choose to consume those alcoholic beverages, what you do in your house is none of my business. However, if you want to come on this forum publically and argue in favor of your drinking lusts, then at least do so using Scripture.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings

Offline anvilhauler

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • ******
  • Posts: 609
  • Edification: 37
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Kevin
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 07:25:54 PM »
Matt wrote:
Quote
my dad keeping a bottle of wine for medicinal purposes

There is absolutely no medical benefit in drinking alcohol but rather the opposite.  Alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 Carcinogen.  If anyone wants a benefit from the red compounds in the skins of grapes then they should either eat the grapes or drink the unfermented grape juice. 

Matt wrote:
Quote
Dr. Larry Rawdon in Florence Alabama who I highly recommend for help with health issues. He uses the asyra pro which analyzes the impedance and reactive capacitance of the body's energetic fields.
  = Mumbo jumbo nonsense.  I'm really surprised that you would paste something like that in a forum like this.

Anyway

To preserve grape juice in the old days without yeasts getting in and making it in to worthless alcohol all that had to be done was to heat the grape juice in an earthenware vessel over the fire and add bees wax to the top of it.  This is the same for preserving meat and anything else.  It is the same as bottling and canning today. 

Being in a land "flowing with milk and honey" the wax from the honey combs gives so many options as it is used for preserving food, as wax for candles and as a waterproofing material.  Even the word "wicked" which we use today is from candles and oil lamps.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Offline stevesams

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL3) Commoner
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Edification: 7
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Steve
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Lawton, Oklahoma
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 09:27:42 PM »
Most of the verses have been identified as to what God says about alcohol.  It is obvious that He says it's wrong.  I remember several years ago hearing a man who appeared to be a Christian say that Jesus drank wine and that it had alcohol in it.  That was all I needed to hear to continue to drink during this time of my life.  I now had an excuse to do what I wanted to do anyway.  We can say what we want about the benefits of alcohol and a lot of people do but there are also a lot of dangers involving alcohol. How many commercial advertising alcohol show a crying parent who lost a child do to a drunk driver.  I have known people who have ruined their lives and some have died because as a result alcohol.  When the Lord God saved me, He removed the desire for alcohol from me.  I haven't had a drink since.   

True story -- A soldier here at Fort Sill had been redeployed from Iraq for just a few weeks.  He was a brand new father and his new born was in need of formula, so he left to go get some.  At some point while he was gone he was hit by a drunk driver and killed.   As I write this, it bothers me when I see people deceived by thinking this stuff is ok.  I am more upset with myself that I used to think there was no issue with it. 

Matt, let me encourage you to stay away from alcohol in all its forms.  Nothing good ever comes out of it. 
Steve

James 1:22

Offline Matt

  • (LVL0) Newly Registered
  • Posts: 12
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Matt
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 10:28:28 PM »
Thank ya'll for your comments.

Kevin, not sure what you mean by "mumbo jumbo nonsense" lol

Steve, I am staying away from alcohol. I guess I just get annoyed by
the mind set from folks who think that everyone who consumes alcohol
or doesn't think it's wrong to consume is lusting after it. I'll be honest it
just doesn't seem so clear to me. I pray that it will. As I told Chris I didn't
list any scriptures because I referred to his article which he had already
done an excellent job of listing them.
I've tried to convince myself that it's like Chris says. People who believe that
that it is saying not to be drunk with alcohol are just trying to make an
excuse to drink it. But I know to many people who don't even drink it or
like it and they still ask me why would he mention tarrying long at the wine
and not just tarry.

Offline stevesams

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL3) Commoner
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Edification: 7
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Steve
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Lawton, Oklahoma
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 10:32:39 PM »
1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I have to remind myself that such was I.
Steve

James 1:22

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL7) Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 952
  • Edification: 42
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 09:40:57 AM »
Being in a land "flowing with milk and honey" the wax from the honey combs gives so many options as it is used for preserving food, as wax for candles and as a waterproofing material.  Even the word "wicked" which we use today is from candles and oil lamps.
That would be fascinating if that's true, but can you provide evidence for that? If you just make blanket claims then that would be no different than what you accused Matt of doing in his initial post; not saying that you make blanket claims, but I'd like to see something to back that up.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings

Offline Masha

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL3) Commoner
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Edification: 4
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Masha
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 09:46:11 AM »
Hi, I have had first hand experience with the desctructiveness of alcohol. Eventhough I drunk myself and got drunk aswell in my past I didnt really consider it to be a problem, but when I experience it up close with a hard core alcoholic, all it's wickedness and evil was revealed to me. I have not touched a drink ever again.
I think the argument of 'tarry long/ you should just drink modestly' is really vague. It's a great excuse for someone to drink as much as they like, and even when almost falling over still say ; "I am not drunk, everything is fine." There is no clear distinction when you are stepping over your 'personal' boundarie, therefor it's impossible to keep such a standard. And give all the space to those who have a weakness with alcohol. It cannot be what God wants. (    1Co 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion,7 but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. )
I think the Bible is very clear on alcohol, as fermented wine. It is clear to me Jesus did not make or drink wine, nor use it at the last supper. (As some claim He did.) I have heard the argument of drinking it for health sake, I know a lot of italians that drink it like water, but I have never seen any proof of it. I would say there is no benefit in drinking fermented grapejuice/wine whatsoever. In grapejuice (non fermented) there's heaps of good qualities and nutriments to obtain. Its high on antioxidant and kills germs. This is what was meant in;     1Ti 5:23, Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (Another scripture that is vastly abused by alcoholics)
Even if you are sure you can measure your drinking and it is not a problem to you, we should still never drink as we don't know who we cause to stumble. There are so many people out there that have problems with or because of alcohol. I believe your testimony a a Christian falls apart when people see you drinking. And it gives others space to abuse the substance. And, I know from experience, all people need to drink is a tiny bit of space and a good excuse. If you drink with them, you give them both. Im sure Christ is not pleased with that.

    Rom 14:21, It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    Pro 20:1, ¶ Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

   Pro 31:6, Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Offline Matt

  • (LVL0) Newly Registered
  • Posts: 12
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Matt
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 11:15:30 AM »
Marsha,

thank you for those reminders.
I think it is hard for me to relate to those who have stumbled because of alcohol.
I've never been too close to anyone who has had this problem.

Romans 14:21 is a verse I should read more often. :)

Offline Masha

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL3) Commoner
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Edification: 4
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Masha
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 11:22:03 AM »
It's good the Lord is opening your eyes, Matt.
The last scripture I put because it actually tells to drink alcohol! If you are ready to perish tough and are of a heavy heart.
I pray you do not fit any of those descriptions!

Offline anvilhauler

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • ******
  • Posts: 609
  • Edification: 37
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Kevin
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 08:17:37 PM »
Quote from: anvilhauler on April 20, 2017, 07:25:54 PM
Quote
Being in a land "flowing with milk and honey" the wax from the honey combs gives so many options as it is used for preserving food, as wax for candles and as a waterproofing material.  Even the word "wicked" which we use today is from candles and oil lamps.

Chris wrote:
Quote
That would be fascinating if that's true, but can you provide evidence for that? If you just make blanket claims then that would be no different than what you accused Matt of doing in his initial post; not saying that you make blanket claims, but I'd like to see something to back that up.

Thanks for questioning this further Chris.

Yes, sealing food under either fat or wax is a very well established method of food preservation and was used extensively around the world before electricity and refrigeration became common.

Here is some information that is typical on the subject.  In Jesus' day if you had wine and you wanted to store it and stop it fermenting to alcohol or further to vinegar then heating and storing under wax or olive oil was the usual process.

Meet The World’s Oldest Bottle of Wine
https://futurism.com/meet-the-worlds-oldest-bottle-of-wine-2/
... Moreover, 1,650-year-old bottle was able to make it this far partially because it was sealed with wax, as opposed to a modern cork, which would have rotted long ago. ...
 

A typical Google search for
"meat" "wax" "preserve" "vessel"
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22meat%22+%22wax%22+%22preserve%22+%22vessel%22

A typical result of the search will give information such as

http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0562e/T0562E04.htm
Fat Embedding

A traditional process that is parallel to canning is that of cooking the meat in a vessel that can be sealed under a layer of melted fat and so protected from recontamination.

An example of such a product is mixiria of the Amazon region where the meat is roasted, sliced and sealed in jars. The layer of fat not only protects the meat from contamination but excludes oxygen, however, organisms can survive so the method is not dependable.

The process of fat embedding was tested by the Australian meat trade in the 19th century - beef was packed into barrels and covered with fat heated to 150°C - but superseded by refrigeration.

It is used to a very limited extent in some industrialised countries, in particular for a product called "potted shrimps", which have been cooked in butter and sealed into jars.



Why is that important to me?

In New Zealand here we get thousands of earthquakes a year and this country has even been dubbed "The Shaky Isles".  I should have mentioned in the past that it is on television and the radio all the time that people should be fully prepared for major earthquakes and that you have to be able to look after yourselves for quite a period of time because there will be too many people for the usual services to look after in such an emergency.  Hence my not being happy with people who don't bother preparing and claim that they are just going to come around to my house.

Anyway.  In the event of a major earthquake we will be thrust back in to life in the 1800's and if you still like eating food then it will be quite necessary to take all of the food out of the freezer and pack it into jars and cook on the camp cooker and seal it with a wax layer on top and when cool enough put the lid on it.

In November 2016 (last year) we had a 7.8 earthquake that affected our main highway north.  This is what the main highway now looks like.


and there are also major slips all the way along it.  Both road and rail are totally out of service and will be for a very long time yet.  Anyone keen on the job of being a digger driver when there is the fear of the whole steep hillsides coming down on you and burying you alive?  I notice all of the digger drivers are men.  You would have to have either guts or a death wish to do what those guys are doing at the moment trying to get that road and rail open again.

Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Offline Masha

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL3) Commoner
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Edification: 4
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Masha
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 05:44:59 AM »
Wow, Kevin!
I had no idea that the earthquakes were that bad over there and that there are so many! And no idea about the wax. I believe it is wise for any man to know how to survive without the worlds services. We could all come into a situation where supermarkets no longer provide. With a bunch of mouths to feed, I seriously think about those things.
Thanks for sharing the info!

Offline anvilhauler

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • ******
  • Posts: 609
  • Edification: 37
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Kevin
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 06:33:48 AM »
The city of Christchurch rebuild is still a major news item here.  I grew up in Christchurch and my family still lives there.  Christchurch got hit by a 7.1 quake in September 2010 and survived quite well.  In February 2011 they got hit by a 6.4 that flattened a lot of the city but only killed about 183 but a lot of people had horrific injuries.  It was a sight to see a 25 story hotel with a big lean on it making it look as if it was going to fall over.  I'm surprised the severe aftershocks didn't finish it off. From what used to be a built up city you can now stand in town and look right across to the other side of town with nothing in between.  The rebuild is basically starting with a blank canvas.  I live 360 km away in Dunedin and we had millions of dollars of damage here.  It sure is a test of nerves being on the 7th floor at work and the whole building swaying back and forth. 

When we get quakes at night on goes the radio and listening for the calls coming in and where a quake was centred and how widely it was felt and how much damage there is.  Having a magnitude 5 quake is a quite a minor news item here.

In Wellington the capital they are still demolishing multistory buildings that were severely damaged in that quake from November last year.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL7) Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 952
  • Edification: 42
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 11:14:47 AM »
I know I could have found this information if I searched it out myself, but if I start searching things out myself and explain them to everyone every time someone else makes a statement, then everyone will begin to feel justified just making general statements without backing them up. I just want to make sure everyone takes responsibility for their own words; although Kevin does moreso than almost anyone on this forum, so he's a good example for others to follow.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings

Offline Matt

  • (LVL0) Newly Registered
  • Posts: 12
  • Edification: 1
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Matt
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Tennessee, USA
Re: ALCOHOL
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 01:20:34 PM »
Kevin,

yeah thanks for that information! I'm eager to share that with a few people. I believe some of that would go good in your article Chris.

 1 Samuel 1:15   
    And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.

This verse may be in the article that Chris wrote. Haven't took time to go back and check. But anyway, it was the concerning strong drink that
I read and thought to myself that I remembered every time that it referred to strong drink that it was talking about alcohol. However I think this
verse proves I am wrong.