Author Topic: When is a person "born again"?  (Read 881 times)

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2017, 01:21:22 PM »
Tim was pointing out that the verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians DID NOT have anything to do with being born again as described in John 3 and was, instead, referring to the rapture which has nothing to do with the subject at hand

I disagree and I gave reasons why. I didn't get an answer or rebuttal to my presentation, just ridicule and "oh I've seen this a million times, blah blah blah". Funny how you say this: "I have to say, you're the first person I've ever met who takes this to mean something physical." But other people have seen this argument before? And in contradiction to your last line? Brother, please.

Quote
because by your definition of the term, (i.e. necessity of dying physically)  those who live until the rapture will NOT be 'born again' and thus will not see the kingdom of God.

Fallacy of false exclusion: I never excluded the raptured from being born again.

Quote
Physical death is the only thing that frees us from our mortal chains and allows a physical presence with God that can never be attained as long as we are in this earthly shell.

Exactly my point...

Offline Jeanne

  • Global Moderator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 707
  • Edification: 27
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Jeanne
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2017, 10:32:36 PM »
Funny how you say this: "I have to say, you're the first person I've ever met who takes this to mean something physical." But other people have seen this argument before?
I said I've never seen your argument before. Tim said he's seen your method of argument many times before. Big difference.

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2017, 07:12:12 AM »
I said I've never seen your argument before. Tim said he's seen your method of argument many times before. Big difference.

True. Point taken.

But my method is to ask question to cast doubt and cause divisions? About what? Between who? To cause strife?

That's a bit on the paranoid side. Honest and open debate is what I want. If we can't discuss the points, then there's no point in even posting. Resorting to insults or just writing off my sincerely held beliefs as heresy doesn't seem reasonable. I have good reason to believe that this "born again" thing as something purely spiritual, is to get people to be uncomfortable with the idea that humans die. It seems the church is too in love with the idea of a rapture, and the closer we get to Jesus' return, the worse things seem to get. Not everyone is going to be raptured. I think getting comfortable with the idea that we might die before the rapture takes place is important, lest we be offended.

Think about the parables Jesus teaches concerning seeds, and compare them to 1st Corinthians ch15 v36. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

Offline Jeanne

  • Global Moderator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 707
  • Edification: 27
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Jeanne
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2017, 12:10:33 PM »
None of us here is looking for a rapture anytime in the foreseeable future. We do not hold to a pre-trib doctrine and, in fact, teach against such a notion.

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/trib.php

I can't speak for anyone else but I, personally, hope I DO die before Jesus returns because I really have no wish to live in the conditions that will exist in the time immediately leading up to that event so you can rest assured that consideration has no bearing on my belief in the doctrine that being born again is a spiritual experience. I've already been born in the flesh so why would I be looking to be 'born again' in the flesh whether it's incorruptible flesh or not?

If we are not born again in the spirit while still alive in the flesh, then please explain how we can possibly live lives pleasing to the Lord. It is only by our sin being covered in the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be accepted by God the Father.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2017, 02:54:40 PM »
None of us here is looking for a rapture anytime in the foreseeable future.

Oh I'm not saying what is being taught is a pretrib rapture, what I'm saying is that the verses which I see as clearly teaching the position I've taken, are being ascribed to the rapture. I don't think that's the case at all.

Quote
If we are not born again in the spirit while still alive in the flesh, then please explain how we can possibly live lives pleasing to the Lord.

We can't. At least not 100%, all the time every time. Just think of all the prophets, that not a single one of them was perfect. Moses, who struck the rock instead of speaking to it (probably out of frustration), was forbidden from entering the promised land. King David who was a man after God's own heart, put a man in harms way so he would die, to live out an adulterous fantasy with that man's wife. Paul said "I die daily." Even Jesus said "Why callest thou me good?"

Being stuck in this flesh body sucks. Jesus said that if we even have impure thoughts, we've sinned. I don't know about any of you here, but I'm not perfect. I have had impure thoughts this week. Not because I wanted to, but because it just is what it is. The struggle against sin is a daily struggle. If God can hear my thoughts, whenever I slip and think a little too much, God probably cringes. But I know God still loves me, and he knows that I'm at least trying to do my best. I ask for forgiveness a lot.

Quote
It is only by our sin being covered in the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be accepted by God the Father.

I know.

Romans 6:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The way I see it, tending to that "seed of faith" we have is what it means to "walk in the spirit" while yet still in the flesh. We have to water it by reading scripture, make sure weeds don't choke it through false doctrines, and things like that. The hope that is in us lives, but again, that which is sown is not quickened (born again) except it die. I can't help but see this a little more literally, because it is as if it jumps out of the text at me.

Offline Jeanne

  • Global Moderator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 707
  • Edification: 27
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Jeanne
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 08:59:14 PM »
Okay, but then verse 11 says:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we're dead unto sin, how can we be 'alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord' unless we've been born again? Again, this is saying we're alive unto God now.

Back to John 3, explain how being born in the Spirit (which is referring to the Holy Spirit since it's capped) is a physical event. Conversely, the glorified bodies we will receive at the rapture are not spiritual bodies, but physical ones just as Jesus had after the resurrection. Adam and Eve probably had the same type bodies before they sinned, too, which means they had immortal bodies first then mortal bodies later which is exactly the opposite of your definition of being born again.

Offline anvilhauler

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL5) Seasoned
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
  • Edification: 31
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Kevin
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 05:05:03 AM »
I've actually thoroughly enjoyed reading this discussion going back and forth.

The point James does bring up is interesting in the case of people such as Ananias and Sapphira his wife.  To those in their congregation they were just ordinary Christians coming along to the gatherings and in the eyes of those there they were probably "born again"   .....  but they might not have been   ......   or maybe they were real Christians but slipped up dramatically along the way.

Do Christians Sin?
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/sin.php

Acts 5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostlesí feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


Whether they were "born again" or not we won't know until the judgement and they possibly won't know either.  I wonder if Ananias and Sapphira will make it into the Kingdom of God.

Hmmm, so it really makes it a bit of a moot point. 

If someone is in the congregation but not doing as they should then they should be put out of the congregation so long as it isn't a sin that leads to death such as adultery.  If they sort themselves out and repent of sins because they are still working on things in their life then they should be let back in to the fellowship.

It is also somewhat a moot point for us too because we won't necessarily be able to identify the wheat from the tares.


Matthew 13 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


So, who are those who are "born again"? 

Revelation 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2017, 08:00:21 AM »
Okay, but then verse 11 says:

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we're dead unto sin, how can we be 'alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord' unless we've been born again? Again, this is saying we're alive unto God now.

Transgression of the law is sin (1st John ch3 v4); sin is death (Romans ch6 v23). Yet, Paul "died daily" (1st Corinthians ch15 v31)? He sinned daily?

how can we be alive unto God, unless we're freed from sin through death?

"For he that is dead is freed from sin." - Romans ch6 v7.

Quote
Back to John 3, explain how being born in the Spirit (which is referring to the Holy Spirit since it's capped) is a physical event.

Dying is physical.

Quote
Conversely, the glorified bodies we will receive at the rapture are not spiritual bodies, but physical ones just as Jesus had after the resurrection.

That contradicts the narrative of Hebrews ch11 v5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Quote
Adam and Eve probably had the same type bodies before they sinned, too, which means they had immortal bodies first then mortal bodies later which is exactly the opposite of your definition of being born again.

Or, they had physical bodies that weren't meant to die, and sin (which causes death) entered into the physical world through their physical bodies which caused death. Angels have bodies, spiritual bodies, which aren't meant to die... And yet: "But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." - Psalm 82 v7.

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 719
  • Edification: 34
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2017, 11:57:11 AM »
Before I respond to any of this, I have one question for James. Would you give me, in plain, direct statements, what you believe on the doctrine of repentance?
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2017, 01:48:34 PM »
Why?

Offline Ceegen

  • Banned
  • (LVL1) Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Edification: -3
    • View Profile
    • My testimony on YouTube
  • First Name: James
  • Belief: Other
  • Location: Maine
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2017, 02:47:49 PM »
Conversely, the glorified bodies we will receive at the rapture are not spiritual bodies, but physical ones just as Jesus had after the resurrection.

That contradicts the narrative of Hebrews ch11 v5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

That wasn't clear enough. I also would refer back to 1st Corinthians ch15, but going back to that again and again might not be enough. Either way, you are again appealing to the rapture, of which we only have two examples of in Enoch and Elijah. But even Jesus, who died, was glorified.

If we are baptized with Jesus unto his death (Romans ch6 v3), and are raised again in glorified form (Romans ch8 v17), then aren't both they who die along with they who are raptured raised in a glorified body? Yet the scriptures say that they who die are raised in incorruption, in a glorified spiritual body. It's not some physically glorified body. So wouldn't it be safe to assume that the "translation" of Enoch who was raptured, is referring to a glorified spiritual body, and not that he inhabited a physically glorified body?

It is almost as if you're trying to tell me that there are two types of bodies we can have in heaven? I don't see scripture supporting this.

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 719
  • Edification: 34
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 02:52:24 PM »
Why?

Why is there such a hesitation in professing what you believe?
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings

Offline anvilhauler

  • Born-Again Christian
  • (LVL5) Seasoned
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
  • Edification: 31
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Kevin
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2017, 03:18:20 PM »
on: March 21, 2017 at 01:48:34 PM James wrote:

Quote
Why?

Definitely the wrong answer James.  You shouldn't have had any problem openly and honestly answering that question.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Offline Jeanne

  • Global Moderator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 707
  • Edification: 27
    • View Profile
  • First Name: Jeanne
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2017, 03:36:26 PM »
I agree and I would add to that question, what do you believe happens when we accept Jesus Christ as Saviour if we're not born again at that time? For that matter what does it mean to you to accept Him as Saviour?

Offline creationliberty

  • Administrator
  • (LVL 6) Dedicated
  • *
  • Posts: 719
  • Edification: 34
    • View Profile
    • Creation Liberty Evangelism
  • First Name: Christopher
  • Belief: Christianity
  • Location: Indiana (USA)
Re: When is a person "born again"?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2017, 04:03:17 PM »
Please don't add anything; I just wanted a simple, direct answer from James for a simple, direct question. This isn't rocket science, I'm just asking for James' belief on the doctrine of repentance. Maybe he has to go look it up first? I don't know; but if he can't answer that, then I'm not going to respond to anything he's talking about here.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2Ti 2:15
CLE Website || Free Audio Teachings || Free Video Teachings