What is the Church?

[Christopher_Belflower]

Good day saints!

Just had some things on my mind and wanted to vent so I stopped working on other things to share. Sorry if there are grammatical errors. This is not an official article or anything, just spend a few hours venting on the keyboard... haha. I pray you may learn something you didn't previously know about the Word of God!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R9cjTIVUxHtRsHuJhpz8RoK9HoqNUG5hyImFdSMoRas/edit?usp=sharing

[Jeanne]

Have you shown this to the guy you had the argument with yet? I just love how you destroy their arguments with simple logic and back up your positions with Scripture! People always want to overcomplicate issues that are really simple to understand if you're willing to listen to what the Bible says rather than what some preacher or Bible college wants you to believe.

I'm not surprised that 'pastor' doesn't want to talk to you anymore. He's probably pretty tired of being proven wrong by a 'layperson' after all the money he spent on his 'education.' If you're right, he has to admit everything he's ever been taught and that he himself has taught others is wrong and he's not willing to do that. Easier (and more profitable) to remain willfully ignorant. 

Blows my mind that this guy had the nerve to say you just dismissed his arguments without much thought when you took three days to write eight pages telling him why he was wrong! Yeah, you really don't need to think (or study) much to write eight pages, do you? Sheesh!

[Christopher_Belflower]

Hi Jeanne,

No, I haven't shown this to him because I posted it here, within 10 mins after I finished typing it. I sent him my response previously, which you read approximately 80% of the conversation. I ended the messenger chat with, if He cannot see from the theme of Romans that Gentiles are grafted into the already existing people of God and Scripture states over and over and over again that it's ONE body, then we truly have nothing further to discuss.

He already threatened to terminate conversation unless I read his Pre-Trib book and I'm not going to do it because the authors other writings lack clear exegesis and rather is full of presumptions.

hmmm...willful ignorant: Sadly, after showing proofs to pastor that the word 'nation' is not exclusive to Gentiles and that Israel is included in the word 'nation' per John 11:48, I received a direct quote from him: "OK, so I will give you that the word can be used for the nation of Israel, That being said, I still can't see a general resurrection, call it years of study in another position, Call it stubbornness, call it me having absolute assurance in that position, call it whatever you want."

[anvilhauler]

I have just been reading through the article.  One interesting point does come up

What is the Church_.docx
I have surmised that if a man were stranded on a desert island with nothing but food, water and a King James Bible, they would come to no other conclusion than that of this so called Covenant Theology. They certainly would not find "The Rapture", they would not find "The Antichrist", they would not know the words, "Second Advent", they would not know to build an "Altar" and to tell church-goers they should come forward to the altar and confess their sins, they would not teach "tithes".

1 John 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


Reading for the first time on a deserted island I think that I would get the impression from scripture that an individual was going to come who is referred to as the antichrist.

I'm enjoying reading this article and will continue reading the rest of it tomorrow.  Thanks for posting it Chris.

[Christopher_Belflower]

Reading for the first time on a deserted island I think that I would get the impression from scripture that an individual was going to come who is referred to as the antichrist.

Interesting point Kevin. Certainly John Nelson Darby would have also came to that conclusion if stranded on a deserted island, thankfully I have you guys to correct me if I say something that's not true or purely speculative. Thanks for correcting me!

Regarding "that antichrist":
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3

Taking precept upon precept, it should be noted THAT antichrist is an "IT" and according to John, "IT" is a spirit and is already in the world since John's day.

[Christopher_Belflower]

BTW Kevin, I am truly grateful that you identified that statement!
Because I have read over that verse so many times, I had never noticed the two 'it's' in 1 John 4:3.

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17

[anvilhauler]

Reading for the first time on a deserted island I think that I would get the impression from scripture that an individual was going to come who is referred to as the antichrist.

Interesting point Kevin. Certainly John Nelson Darby would have also came to that conclusion if stranded on a deserted island, thankfully I have you guys to correct me if I say something that's not true or purely speculative. Thanks for correcting me!

Regarding "that antichrist":
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3

Taking precept upon precept, it should be noted THAT antichrist is an "IT" and according to John, "IT" is a spirit and is already in the world since John's day.

According to scripture though it would certainly seem that the antichrist is an individual as well as there being a spirit of antichrist.

Revelation 13 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

also

Revelation 14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Interesting discussion all the same 

[Christopher_Belflower]

Interesting points Kevin,

Who is the beast? Because antichrist is not mentioned one time in Revelation. You would have to show me the verse in Scripture that says, "that antichrist" is "the beast".

Being that there are two types of people in the world, those in Christ, and those without... If you are not sealed with the Spirit of God... You have only one other option.

I will be doing a Study of Revelation Chapter 1-22 once I finish Matthew 24.
Not really going to get into it now, but just some food for thought:

Rev 13:
16 And he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that NO man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Eze 3:
8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.
9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Proverbs 15:
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

If you are without Christ: Your WAY (the mark of your hands) and THOUGHTS (mark on your head) are wicked abominations.

Jude
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Ecc 3:
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

If you are not born again, you are still bound by the strong man (satan) (Matthew 12:29/Mark 3:27) and according to Jesus Christ:
John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[ThomasHGW]

Rev 13:
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

If you are without Christ: Your WAY (the mark of your hands) and THOUGHTS (mark on your head) are wicked abominations

That would be both the hand and the forehead right?
Rev 13 says hand OR forehead

Are you saying that the mark in revelation wont be a literal mark that you receive?

I'm just trying to understand what exactly your saying.

[Christopher_Belflower]

I'm just trying to understand what exactly your saying.

I haven't done the study yet, i was just "food for thought"

The subject was "What is the church?"
Kevin wanted to talk about "The Antichrist"
The Bible never adds a definite article to antichrist. Rather, Scripture says "IT" is a spirit.
Kevin switched subjects from "The Antichrist" to "The Beast" implying they are the same without offering Scriptural evidence to that claim.

I provided a few notes, that I have that are not fully realized yet. That's all.
But if the question is do I think "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is to be read literally? Then the answer is no. And when I finish my study, I will tell you all why.

[ThomasHGW]

Fair enough

[Christopher_Belflower]

Thanks for your comment though Thomas, I'll ensure to address your AND/OR point later.

Also, I just noticed your emphasis on receive the mark in revelation.

So to address that comment:
Would you say ALL men have received condemnation?

[ThomasHGW]

I put emphasis on recieve because it -->seemed<-- to me that it was referring to a literal mark.
Thats why I also emphasized "that had the mark."
But I'm open to learning something new if it can be proven through scripture, I just look at it for what it says as I'm sure you understand

[Christopher_Belflower]

Gotcha! Well, you have a keen eye! I anticipate the Matthew 24 study to be approximately 150 pages, I'd love it if you would critique it and correct me in all areas that I am in error. Have a great day Thomas. 

[creationliberty]

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
-Gen 4:15
The problem is mixing together transitive with intransitive verbs. Transitive verbs have a particular object, so in this instance, Cain was the object. In Revelation, it says HE or HIS, which would be the object. The transitive verb of mark is to draw lines upon something/someone in any particular shape, or an outward visible sign, which makes sense in the situation with Cain, specifically, "lest any finding him should kill him," so that way the warning from God would be there not to seek vengeance.
Using the word 'mark' in an intransitive way, without an object, would result in the word meaning "to observe or point out," which is the method being suggested by Chris B (based on what I read so far; correct me if I'm wrong), and that would be incorrect.
For example:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
-Rev 14:9
The context is any man, but it says "HIS" forehead or "HIS" hand, which is a specific object. That's transitive, which means it's a visible sign.
Compared to:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
-Rom 16:17
It is a commandment to mark (observe or point out) "THEM" (any of those those who cause offenses against the doctrine of Christ), which is intransitive, not referring to a particular object. That is not the same way that is used in Rev 14, which is why we don't get out a Sharpie and draw lines on them, that they would receive a mark from us.

Even if this were not the case, the context makes it well-understood, which means we don't need to rely on a grammar dictionary, but this is just to give an idea of why the KJB translators backed these up with the few words they added in to help understand the sentences. This is why I have a desire to mostly avoid the Book of Revelation until I'm done inspecting the rest of the doctrine in the New Testament--small errors can throw doctrine way off track.

[ThomasHGW]

the context makes it well-understood, which means we don't need to rely on a grammar dictionary, but this is just to give an idea of why the KJB translators backed these up with the few words they added in to help understand the sentences.

Although you are right about that, I often think about how much more I would understand scripture if I only paid more attention in English grammer class in school.
I remember learning a few years of German in high school, and thinking "wait is English this complicated too?" It's just that I'm used to the language and American English speakers of the modern era are very lazy linguistically.

[creationliberty]

But you're talking to a guy who failed high school English and had to go to night school to make it up so he could graduate. I had no interest in this until I started studying the Word of God, so it is by the Spirit of God that we are even led to learn these things in the first place. 

[Christopher_Belflower]

Chris,

The method you have suggested I am using is both correct and incorrect in this instance.
What I am suggesting is that the Book of Revelation is a symbolic book. Written in the fashion of Daniel, as visions.

For example:
Daniel 8:
3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Is the ram which had two horns pushing westward using a transitive verb?
Later in the chapter it is revealed that the ram is actually symbolic of something else:

Daniel 8:
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

This is describing something that was literally seen by Daniel and in like manner, John for the purposes of The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
So what you say is correct, John literally see's marks on people's hands or foreheads.
However, these literal marks are symbolic in that they mean something else. In this particular case, the something else I suggested is that ALL men before they are sealed by the Holy Spirit are condemned. ALL men are enslaved. ALL men are deceived. And this is the theme of Chapter 13, that we are all doomed and in need of a savior. The "things" described in Chapter 13, are suggestive of the hopeless depravity of mankind, worshipping false beasts.

John 3:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Revelation 13:
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is not even an option: ALL receive the mark, No man might buy or sell save he had the mark, and ALL men have the mark.

The primary issue, is that people have been supplanted with the doctrine that these verses are future, but a careful reading of Scripture will prove that presupposition to be false. My study is to show that Revelation is relevant for what has happened in the history of Christs church and what is happening in the lives of man.

And Chapter 14, verse 1 opens with our Great Hope, The True Lamb as opposed to the false lamb mentioned in Revelation 13:11, This Lamb is standing on mount Zion, with the full people of God, the elect of God, having the Fathers name "written in their foreheads."

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Without getting to much into the weeds of the matter, hopefully I have made myself clear on this point.

[creationliberty]

I'm sorry Chris, but that's not going to work on me.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
-Gen 6:13
Thus, if I interpret Scripture the way you are doing it, then all flesh was destroyed, which means we don't really exist. Obviously, based on the context, this means all men, except Noah and his family.

Obviously, based on the context, "he causeth all" in Rev 13 means all who take it. That's explained in the context:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
-Revelation 13:8
That is, all men, who are not of Christ.

The reason I'm handling you firmly on this one is because you're now teaching others, and if you missed that context, then your presupposition is getting in the way of the truth.

[Christopher_Belflower]

Firm is good,

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You can be predestined before the creation of the world and yet, be in condemnation in this world until the day you are sealed in the Spirit.