introduction HI from Canada

[Nat12]

Hi my name is Natalie, I got saved in 1999 when i was 18, I was watching the funeral for Rachel Scott, a christian girl who died in the Colombine high school shooting. She was allegedly shot when she told the shooter that she believed in God. I was a high school school student too at the time and it scared me because i could relate to the shooters because supposedly they killed the other students because they were not in the "in crowd" at school and were kinda shunned, which is what i kinda felt like in high school (don't get me wrong i would never shoot anyone, but even the thought i could understand the mind set of the shooters even if just a little bit was enough to make me realize i needed a savior, to set me free from my evil heart. I remember i saw the cross on the stage at the funeral and it was then that i believed that Jesus really did die for me and it wasn't just a good story and it was real, something changed in my heart that day, I received the Holy Spirit.
Anyway fast forward a few years, well when i was about 26-33 I started attending a extreme charismatic church(it was partners in harvest with the Toronto airport church(catch the fire) , at first I thought it was great and that it was so much more "spiritual" and Holy Spirit led then my past church. But through the years i did start to see things that just didn't seem quite right, quite biblical but i kinda just brushed  it off, because i felt good and felt like i was experiencing God. Anyway in 2014 i had a very bad concussion and couldn't work for a long time,( i'm still only back to volunteering) and eventually since i had a lot of time to think, since i couldn't' do much, i started figuring out all these problems with the world, politics and the church, i did lot's of research and realized that i had been majorly deceived by the charismatic movement. SO i left that church and I talked to my old pastor about it and he basically said it didn't matter because we both believed in Jesus which i disagreed with, I also commented on one of his Facebook posts as he was advertising a course by ancient paths, and maybe i shouldn't have said anything but i did i just basically said he (the leader of ancient paths not my old pastor) was a false teachers,and my old pastor basically unfriended me from Facebook. anyway i didn't go to church for a couple years as i couldn't find one that i agreed with completely they all seemed to be in heresy one way or the other, after a while i felt like not going to church and being isolated wasn't a igood thing so i tried another church which is where i am now and i'm wondering if i should leave it too because i found out it is incorporated and also they play contemporary music and hillsong even, and the ladys group studies prophecy and beth moore. so i'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do. I feel like a should maybe stay for awhile longer since i've been able to bring some non christian friends there, and maybe they will get saved.

[Jeanne]

Hi Natalie,

Most of us here no longer attend church buildings at all. You say you want to stay at your current church, even though they teach false doctrine, because you've been able to bring friends there? Believe me, I used to try that tactic, too, i.e. bringing non-Christians to church hoping something would convince them that Christianity is real.

It doesn't work. Most of them saw, much more clearly than I did, that these churches were all about the money. If you didn't get saved through listening to false doctrine, how could you expect other people to?

I don't know if you've been listening to the current teaching on repentance, but most people in those church buildings today have no idea what repentance really means so are really false converts, meaning they aren't really Christians at all. I'm not saying no one has ever gotten saved from listening to leavened preachers but it happens more often that these people are so convinced that they ARE saved, they have no interest or desire in listening to the truth of God's word.

[creationliberty]

If you didn't get saved through listening to false doctrine, how could you expect other people to?

+1

[Nat12]

Well doctrine wise- main doctrine they(my chruch) are pretty good this is on their website about how to be saved:
"We believe that salvation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, whose precious blood was shed on Calvary for the forgiveness of our sins. We further believe that salvation is manifested in two-fold way: (1) a godly sorrow for sin, and (2) a turning from sin to live a godly life. Those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will rejoice forever in God

[Nat12]

i just wrote a whole long post and lost almost all of it ugh

[Nat12]

Well doctrine wise- main doctrine they(my chruch) are pretty good this is on their website about how to be saved:
"We believe that salvation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, whose precious blood was shed on Calvary for the forgiveness of our sins. We further believe that salvation is manifested in two-fold way: (1) a godly sorrow for sin, and (2) a turning from sin to live a godly life. Those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will rejoice forever in God

[Nat12]

the only issue is the way it's worded 2-a turning from sin to live a godly life is could be interpreted as a works based Gospel(unless by "manifested" he means the fruit of salvation) but i asked him about it and he said he no he doesn't believe you need to actually get your life together ie stop sinning in order to be saved. I think however the doctrinal statement is a bit confusing.

Doctrine wise the problem i had was he quoted a guy in his sermon who had written about hearing the voice of God,(as in hearing from God not in the Bible but from a "still small voice")  that too me is very dangerous teaching i forget the authors name but he was teaching contemplative prayer, or at least he was borderline teaching that and when i went to talk to him about he said your right i should be careful about what books to recommend but on the other hand he said a trusted friend gave him that book and it helped him, he didn't seem to understand the danger in it.( i only know because i came from the extreme charismatic movement and i've done research into new age teaching) Also i sent him some really good web articles explaining why it was bad teaching but he didn't write me back about any of them. A question i have about this is it ok for me a 37 year old single woman to be warning a pastor about wrong teachers, because i told a friend a older lady and she said what right do i have telling the pastor that, i should shut up. Also when i saw that the ladies group was studying Beth Moore who to me is a false teacher i told the pastor and he said it was ok that he trusted the ladies that they would keep the good things she(beth) said and throw out anything that was bad, which to me is not right. So yeah my friend has been coming with me off and on to the church since NOvember and he still hasn't gotten saved There were a couple things in the pastor's sermons i mentioned that i took issue it, but lately the sermons have been good.

I'm just wondering, yes my church is definitely not perfect, so should i leave it? what comes to mind is the church in Corinth, it was very messed up into all kinds of sexual sins and even incest, but yet Paul never told the people to leave the church, he said to fix the problems within. He also said that Love was the most important thing, that one can have all the knowledge of the world know all the mysteries,(ie be right about everything) and  not have love then it is all useless. sorry from my ranting i'm basically typing out my thoughts here and need some input, thanks.

[Jeanne]

I'm sorry, Nat, but that has been a recurring problem or bug with this forum.

One thing you need to do when copy/pasting content from other places (including, apparently, writing out a post on a notepad or word processor) is to manually replace all the apostrophes.

That didn't used to be the case on the old forum, but for some reason this version is a lot more picky about the characters it allows. I don't think Chris really knows how to fix it, either, because he's using the exact same software that he was before.

[Nat12]

yeah i figured it was the paragraph i copied and pasted, i figure it out(how to get it back) i hit the back button a few times and viola it was all there. i re-posted it, i just missed about a line.

[Timothy]

"We believe that salvation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, whose precious blood was shed on Calvary for the forgiveness of our sins. We further believe that salvation is manifested in two-fold way: (1) a godly sorrow for sin, and (2) a turning from sin to live a godly life.

The way it's worded is incorrect because repentance (godly sorrow for sin) is not just a 'manifestation' of salvation. It is part of salvation:

Acts 20:21 - Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Here is the article on repentance Jeanne mentioned. You can click on the YouTube button at the top right of the page to go to Chris' channel and find the audio teachings on repentance or download the teachings from the CLE site. http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/repent.php

If the turning from sin is after salvation, I don't see a problem with it. But it cannot be before repentance and faith else that is a works salvation. Born again believers in Christ turn from sin by the working of the Holy Spirit that is in them. People can't turn from sin in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I'm just wondering, yes my church is definitely not perfect, so should i leave it?

Whether or not you leave is up to you. Nobody has to answer to what you do or don't do except yourself. But keep in mind that the Bible says a little leaven leavens the lump:

1 Corinthians 5:6-7 - Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Galatians 5:9 - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

what comes to mind is the church in Corinth, it was very messed up into all kinds of sexual sins and even incest, but yet Paul never told the people to leave the church, he said to fix the problems within.

Paul actually did teach to remove people from the church. In fact, he taught that very thing dealing with the Corinthians about fornication. And I also just realized I quoted part of that very chapter without realizing it

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Paul did teach to remove certain people from the church especially from those that claimed to be Christians. And it stands to reason that if the leaven can't be removed, to remove oneself from the leaven. But again, that's up to you.

Also, I've never heard of "contemplative prayer". What is that?

[creationliberty]

Don't forget the end of the chapter, which says:
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
-1Co 5:13

Natalie, if you've been attending this church building for an extended time, and you don't understand these things yet, you're probably in a leavened church that you need to disassociate yourself from; however, Tim is right... that should be of your own conviction. On the other hand, how can you have that conviction when the lump is leavened? Food for thought because if the leader is blind, the group will be blind also.

And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
-Luke 6:39

[Timothy]

Thanks for adding that. I don't know why I didn't think to end the chapter.

[Nat12]

Hi, sorry i didn't word what i meant well. What i meant was I know that the people in the church who were committing sexual sins in Corinthians were supposed to be put out of the church. My problem is that the leaven in my case is the incorporation of the church and the doctrine and music from the church itself, so i guess all i can do is talk to the pastor about it like i've done and since he seems to disagree, obviously i can't throw him (the pastor) out of the church, or any of the elders or other leaders who made bad decisions. so like you said Timothy at the end of your message, i guess it stands to reason that I need to remove myself likely. I wasn't sure if that logic applied before when i asked the question, but now that you put it that way it makes sense.

As for what contemplative prayer is, it's a type of prayer that the Catholic mystics do, (monks etc) and now has invaded the charismatic circles,(and even some mainstream churches) it's basically a type of "listening prayer" when you kind of mediate and quiet your mind, quiet your thoughts to hear from God, (ie they say"listening to the still small voice"-in your mind)  it's a very dangerous and unbiblical practice that can open you up to hearing from demons. It's basically a new age practice. ( my old charismatic church taught this, and the one i'm at now wasn't really but it was borderline kind of getting too close to it for my liking, if you know what i mean.)

Anyway, I will likely discontinue going to that church, i might talk to the pastor one more time about why i'm leaving, see what he says. i just don't know what i will say about the incorporation part because i'm in Canada and everything I've read has been American on 5013c stuff. I tried to read about it on the gov of Canada website but it's a bit confusing for me to understand as i am not a legal expert by any means, but what i gathered is that there are churches that are "registered charities" and then there are incorporated churches, which(incorporated church) seems to be a new thing. it seems that basically all the churches are "registered charities" and a lot fewer are incorporated. my church is the latter. registered charity let's you claim income tax for donations so you get money back, and also seems like you can't endorse a political party, tho you can say your against certain positions a party has you can't name the party or politicians. as for the incorporated church, it seems closely to the 5013c where the church becomes an "it", a legal entity and you can buy and sell property in the churches name, i heard churches do it so that they personally cannot be sued, but the "church" itself is sued. they do it to be not held accountable it seems.  IT seems like for both you can only donate to people who are registered charities. There actually a website and you can see which churches are incorporated or registered charities.

SO yeah i'm writing all this because i need a plan B, if i'm quitting this church i need another church to go to, so wondering if people think that maybe being a registered charity is ok, and just avoid incorporated churches? is it seems the incorporated ones are worse. If i avoid both kinds of churches, there is probably not any left to attend.

[Jeanne]

Why do you feel you need another church to 'go to'? As I said earlier, most of us here on the forum have quit going to any of these leavened church buildings. We have our own fellowship right here. Does it get lonely? Sometimes, yes. But besides the regular Skype meetings, several of us talk on our own throughout the week on Skype, as well.

If your pastor has not listened to your concerns before, it is highly unlikely that going to him again will change anything. And as has been said before, if you can't remove the leaven, the only thing left to do is to remove yourself from the leaven and sanctify yourself from it.

From what I've heard about Canadian law, it's even illegal for pastors to preach that homosexuality is wrong because it's 'hate speech'. I would not want to be part of a church that is so gagged by the government that they are prevented from preaching the truth of God's word.

Again, if a church is not incorporated or registered as a charity, the government neither knows nor cares that you exist, so a group like this is free to preach whatever they want.

Chris just renovated the entire article on 501c3 to make the situation even clearer. And even though it's still geared towards American churches, the same principles still apply.

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/501c3.php