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222
Wild Emails @ CLE / Worshiper of Sabbath Shows True Colors
« on: October 10, 2022, 10:01:37 AM »
I'll provide more details at the end of this letter because there is a lot I did not say to this man, simply because he was not willing to reason together, and I figured that would be the case from the start.
KEVIN FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE:
I'm an avid listener / reader of your podcasts and essays and want to express one "major" concern or admonition regarding your doctrine on the weekly Sabbath Day.
Let me preface this noting that I am not a member of any "churchianity" denomination nor do I attend any church buildings and haven't for many years after discovering how deceived I was for most of my life. If I had to put a label on my spiritual position it would be simply: whole Bible believing Christian.
Please understand this point is not based on emotion or opinion but on God's own immutable word in scripture regarding the ten commandments. In the spirit of brevity I will cut to the chase through pages upon pages of hermeneutic Bible studies I did on this subject.
You have clearly expressed adherence to sound Biblical doctrine and not the traditions of men nor doctrines of devils, and that is key here. When it comes to the moral law of the ten commandments God doesn't change and neither did Christ come to change any of the Father's commandments as it is written. The Mosaic laws, on the other hand, were fulfilled by Christ according to Biblical prophesies, i.e. all the sacrificial laws, applicable days, moons, feasts, (Passover) &etc.
Please show me in Scripture where or when either God, through the prophets in Old Testament, or Christ in the New Testament, changed any of the everlasting ten commandment laws? It was the demonic popes of Rome who changed the 7th day Sabbath over time in an effort to attract Roman pagan citizens into the fold and then to grant the Romish pope absolute power over the "church". This transition of power occurred in 538AD when Rome transitioned from pagan empire to popish church & state and the rest is demon history.
Please let me know your thoughts on this based strictly in Bible truth.
I'm an avid listener / reader of your podcasts and essays and want to express one "major" concern or admonition regarding your doctrine on the weekly Sabbath Day.
Let me preface this noting that I am not a member of any "churchianity" denomination nor do I attend any church buildings and haven't for many years after discovering how deceived I was for most of my life. If I had to put a label on my spiritual position it would be simply: whole Bible believing Christian.
If that were true, then you would not have a problem with what I'm teaching on this subject, but obviously, based on your statement, there's still something in "church-ianity" that is lingering in your belief system.
Please understand this point is not based on emotion or opinion but on God's own immutable word in scripture regarding the ten commandments. In the spirit of brevity I will cut to the chase through pages upon pages of hermeneutic Bible studies I did on this subject.
Look, you don't have to try and preface this in some overly formal way. Just make your argument. You don't have to tip-toe around with me. I have had this discussion with many people over the years on this exact same topic, so we can skip past all the formalities, speak plainly, and just get to the point; it'll save us both a lot of time.
You have clearly expressed adherence to sound Biblical doctrine and not the traditions of men nor doctrines of devils, and that is key here. When it comes to the moral law of the ten commandments God doesn't change and neither did Christ come to change any of the Father's commandments as it is written. The Mosaic laws, on the other hand, were fulfilled by Christ according to Biblical prophesies, i.e. all the sacrificial laws, applicable days, moons, feasts, (Passover) &etc.
Please show me in Scripture where or when either God, through the prophets in Old Testament, or Christ in the New Testament, changed any of the everlasting ten commandment laws?
This is what is called a "loaded question." Have you heard of that term before? Let me define it, just in case you haven't:
loaded question (n): a form of complex question that contains a controversial assumption; such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda
Notice specifically that you ended that sentence in a question mark to try to make seem like you were posing a question, when in fact, you only made a statement (and a rhetorical one at that because you already declared that there was not an answer to it in the previous paragraph), and furthermore, the statement you're making does not address the root problem. NOTE: No one, on either side of this debate, claims that God CHANGED the Ten Commandments, but you subtly programmed that accusation towards me into your question (even though I have never made an argument like that in my teachings), and then demanded that I answer it. That is a deceptive form of communication, and as a professing Christian, you should be ashamed for attempting that, and I would be interested to know who taught you to do it.
The Scriptures aren't changed. They are FULFILLED. The question you should be asking is this: Where in the New Testament Scriptures is there any commandment for us to observe the Old Testament ordinances of the Sabbath? We are taught in the New Testament not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, not to fornicate, not to commit adultery, not to covet, to love the Lord God only, to honor our parents, so where is the part about the Sabbath? Until you answer those questions, then you are avoiding the argument of your opposition.
It was the demonic popes of Rome who changed the 7th day Sabbath over time in an effort to attract Roman pagan citizens into the fold and then to grant the Romish pope absolute power over the "church". This transition of power occurred in 538AD when Rome transitioned from pagan empire to popish church & state and the rest is demon history.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand. That is something that can be addressed later AFTER the questions I just posed have been answered. You're not addressing the core problem because I am willing and bold to say before God and men that Jews and Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists, and any other flavor in likeness to them, are all WRONG on this subject.
Please let me know your thoughts on this based strictly in Bible truth.
It would be great if you take the time to form a proper argument first because you haven't actually made any Biblical argument in favor of your position yet (even though I'm sure you believe you did), so there's nothing for me to answer yet. Normally, I would try not to be this firm in email, but since you thought yourself bold to make statements under presumption instead of asking questions to clarify where I stand, I want to hit the nail straight on the head so we don't waste each others' time.
There are two articles I wrote that address this subject in much greater detail, and I have audio teachings on both of them (green audio button at the top of the page):
Keeping the Sabbath is Not a Christian Requirement
The Biblical Understanding of Charity
If you don't understand how those are connected, then those would be recommended for study. For now, that's the best I can do for you. I hope it helps, and at the very least, I appreciate you taking the time to listen. Have a great day.
WOE!!!! I did not expect such an arrogant, self-righteous, indignant response from such an articulate teacher. Have you ever heard of "humility" in Christ? I will pray for you brother...
BTW, Jesus and the Disciples all followed the 7th day Sabbath, in case you missed the scripture.
It was the ceremonial "Sabbaths" that Christ fulfilled which we are no longer required to follow.
May the good Lord open your eyes and humble your heart.
I asked: "Where in the New Testament Scriptures is there any commandment for us to observe the Old Testament ordinances of the Sabbath?"
Your answer: "Jesus and the Disciples all followed the 7th day Sabbath, in case you missed the scripture."
Of course they did. The law and prophets were fulfilled in Jesus Christ after He died and rose from the dead (Mat 7:12), but you did NOT answer my question, and I had a suspicion that you wouldn't answer it because you can't, or it will invalidate your arguments.
This is why I wanted you to stop all the formalities and niceties, because, as you can see, you ran past the truth into railing accusations, calling me "arrogant, self-righteous, indignant" for pointing out your deception and hypocrisy. This shows us the filth in your heart (Mat 15:18), and I can see past your fluffy language very easily because I've been doing this for a long time. I do appreciate you being much more direct in your second email, and showing the truth of who you really are. It saved me a lot of time. You are free to go and believe whatever you want, but I am not here to help you justify yourself in your works-based ideologies, and though I appreciate you listening for as long as you claimed to have listened to my teachings, it would be good for you to depart from this ministry because we are not like-minded in Christ.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
-Phil 2:2
Take care and have a great day.
END OF DISCUSSION
He spelled "Whoa" as "Woe," and that actually made it pretty funny for those of you who know the difference in definition of those terms. Well, technically, it would make it pretty vindictive, but that's why I said it was funny.
Some interesting notes, and I want everyone to pay close attention to this. I have NEVER heard from this guy before. I personal find it fascinating that he claims to be an "avid" reader/listener, but I've never heard from him before, not in email, comments, letters in the mail, or any other medium... nothing. The ONLY time I hear from him is when he wants to complain. Therefore, we already have evidence, before he's even started writing, that his intention is to make me into a version of himself, and that's not what this ministry is for.
I also find it interesting how many people write me these types of emails, and have no thought to consider that I have had these discussions on this same subject with MANY people over the last 14 years I've been working in ministry. They act like this is the first time I have ever heard someone complain about this, or have ever heard these arguments (multiple times) from other people who also do not understand the Scriptures. So when I tell them to stop beating around the bush and get to their point, they get angry because they thought their niceties was "humility," and therefore, a rejection of their niceties leaves them without a way to justify themselves to be thoughtful, despite the fact that the basic information they are providing exposes them, and they never understood how their own words revealed the truth about them.
No one can hide it completely:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18
He stated he wants to give me an "admonition," which is a declaration that I have done wrong (by definition), not a "major concern," which are two very different things (because a major concern is not the same as sin, which requires admonition), so I'm already seeing contradictions before he has finished his first sentence. Notice how he said he hasn't attended church buildings or denominations, but he did not mention anywhere else that he fellowships with other Christians. I'm not condemning someone for not having regular fellowship (because I can understand the reasons why), but when there is a lack of fellowship in someone who claims to be of Christ, there are patterns of problems that arise that they typically don't see, and I can see some of it coming through in Kevin's email.
It was hilarious to watch him explode in rage as soon as I pointed out the deception of his loaded question, and then watch him immediately accuse me of not having humility. Define projection.
I really wish men like this could be more reasonable because it would be fascinating to take them through a back-and-forth conversation on this. Notice, in his second letter, after he started in on his contention and railing accusations, that he specifically pointed out that the "ceremonial Sabbaths" were fulfilled in Christ. What he didn't realize is that he just hammered the final nail in the coffin of his own argument by saying that.
If he could have calmed himself down, and handled himself like an adult (let alone a Christian who thinks he's being humble and not just standing on pretense with fluffy words), I would have asked him HOW he "keeps the Sabbath day." The reason that question is very key is because whatever comes out of his mouth next HAS to be based on Scripture, not only because he demanded it from me (which means he's under the same rules of engagement), but also because, since God declared the Sabbath day, then He also set down the rules on HOW to observe it.
This means that, no matter what Kevin would have told me, it would have contradicted his statement that Christ fulfilled the "ceremonial Sabbaths." If he said we are supposed to rest (without getting into the details of what that means because that would be whole separate fascinating conversation of him trying to set a rule system for everyone based on his presuppositions), then I would ask him why Christ didn't fulfill that?
I don't think he could have handled a fraction of that conversation without blowing up in rage. Again, why is he so angry? Because, in the end, he can claim "grace through faith" all he wants, but he believes his alleged "keeping of the Sabbath" is what justifies him, just like the tithers hold up their tithe as a coat of arms the second you point out that they have no repentance in their hearts.
As opposed to Kevin, I have no problem with him whether he wants to honor a day for the Lord or not, which is what Paul taught us in the New Testament. (Rom 14:5-6) However, he has a problem with anyone who does not adhere to the rules that he has set for himself to honor a day for the Lord, and that is what is meant when Paul concluded that:
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
-Rom 14:10
This is not referring to judgment in general, which is our duty as Christ commanded in John 7:24, but not to judge in unrighteousness and hypocrisy (which is what Christ means in Mat 7:1), to judge how one honors the Lord according to his own convictions. Perhaps one day Kevin can learn the doctrine of repentance and remission of sins, so he can see clearly to be in like mind with the rest of the church, and I hope the Lord God will show him mercy and He has shown me mercy.
Feel free to comment below if you want to respond to Kevin's letter.
KEVIN FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE:
I'm an avid listener / reader of your podcasts and essays and want to express one "major" concern or admonition regarding your doctrine on the weekly Sabbath Day.
Let me preface this noting that I am not a member of any "churchianity" denomination nor do I attend any church buildings and haven't for many years after discovering how deceived I was for most of my life. If I had to put a label on my spiritual position it would be simply: whole Bible believing Christian.
Please understand this point is not based on emotion or opinion but on God's own immutable word in scripture regarding the ten commandments. In the spirit of brevity I will cut to the chase through pages upon pages of hermeneutic Bible studies I did on this subject.
You have clearly expressed adherence to sound Biblical doctrine and not the traditions of men nor doctrines of devils, and that is key here. When it comes to the moral law of the ten commandments God doesn't change and neither did Christ come to change any of the Father's commandments as it is written. The Mosaic laws, on the other hand, were fulfilled by Christ according to Biblical prophesies, i.e. all the sacrificial laws, applicable days, moons, feasts, (Passover) &etc.
Please show me in Scripture where or when either God, through the prophets in Old Testament, or Christ in the New Testament, changed any of the everlasting ten commandment laws? It was the demonic popes of Rome who changed the 7th day Sabbath over time in an effort to attract Roman pagan citizens into the fold and then to grant the Romish pope absolute power over the "church". This transition of power occurred in 538AD when Rome transitioned from pagan empire to popish church & state and the rest is demon history.
Please let me know your thoughts on this based strictly in Bible truth.
I'm an avid listener / reader of your podcasts and essays and want to express one "major" concern or admonition regarding your doctrine on the weekly Sabbath Day.
Let me preface this noting that I am not a member of any "churchianity" denomination nor do I attend any church buildings and haven't for many years after discovering how deceived I was for most of my life. If I had to put a label on my spiritual position it would be simply: whole Bible believing Christian.
If that were true, then you would not have a problem with what I'm teaching on this subject, but obviously, based on your statement, there's still something in "church-ianity" that is lingering in your belief system.
Please understand this point is not based on emotion or opinion but on God's own immutable word in scripture regarding the ten commandments. In the spirit of brevity I will cut to the chase through pages upon pages of hermeneutic Bible studies I did on this subject.
Look, you don't have to try and preface this in some overly formal way. Just make your argument. You don't have to tip-toe around with me. I have had this discussion with many people over the years on this exact same topic, so we can skip past all the formalities, speak plainly, and just get to the point; it'll save us both a lot of time.
You have clearly expressed adherence to sound Biblical doctrine and not the traditions of men nor doctrines of devils, and that is key here. When it comes to the moral law of the ten commandments God doesn't change and neither did Christ come to change any of the Father's commandments as it is written. The Mosaic laws, on the other hand, were fulfilled by Christ according to Biblical prophesies, i.e. all the sacrificial laws, applicable days, moons, feasts, (Passover) &etc.
Please show me in Scripture where or when either God, through the prophets in Old Testament, or Christ in the New Testament, changed any of the everlasting ten commandment laws?
This is what is called a "loaded question." Have you heard of that term before? Let me define it, just in case you haven't:
loaded question (n): a form of complex question that contains a controversial assumption; such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda
Notice specifically that you ended that sentence in a question mark to try to make seem like you were posing a question, when in fact, you only made a statement (and a rhetorical one at that because you already declared that there was not an answer to it in the previous paragraph), and furthermore, the statement you're making does not address the root problem. NOTE: No one, on either side of this debate, claims that God CHANGED the Ten Commandments, but you subtly programmed that accusation towards me into your question (even though I have never made an argument like that in my teachings), and then demanded that I answer it. That is a deceptive form of communication, and as a professing Christian, you should be ashamed for attempting that, and I would be interested to know who taught you to do it.
The Scriptures aren't changed. They are FULFILLED. The question you should be asking is this: Where in the New Testament Scriptures is there any commandment for us to observe the Old Testament ordinances of the Sabbath? We are taught in the New Testament not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, not to fornicate, not to commit adultery, not to covet, to love the Lord God only, to honor our parents, so where is the part about the Sabbath? Until you answer those questions, then you are avoiding the argument of your opposition.
It was the demonic popes of Rome who changed the 7th day Sabbath over time in an effort to attract Roman pagan citizens into the fold and then to grant the Romish pope absolute power over the "church". This transition of power occurred in 538AD when Rome transitioned from pagan empire to popish church & state and the rest is demon history.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand. That is something that can be addressed later AFTER the questions I just posed have been answered. You're not addressing the core problem because I am willing and bold to say before God and men that Jews and Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists, and any other flavor in likeness to them, are all WRONG on this subject.
Please let me know your thoughts on this based strictly in Bible truth.
It would be great if you take the time to form a proper argument first because you haven't actually made any Biblical argument in favor of your position yet (even though I'm sure you believe you did), so there's nothing for me to answer yet. Normally, I would try not to be this firm in email, but since you thought yourself bold to make statements under presumption instead of asking questions to clarify where I stand, I want to hit the nail straight on the head so we don't waste each others' time.
There are two articles I wrote that address this subject in much greater detail, and I have audio teachings on both of them (green audio button at the top of the page):
Keeping the Sabbath is Not a Christian Requirement
The Biblical Understanding of Charity
If you don't understand how those are connected, then those would be recommended for study. For now, that's the best I can do for you. I hope it helps, and at the very least, I appreciate you taking the time to listen. Have a great day.
WOE!!!! I did not expect such an arrogant, self-righteous, indignant response from such an articulate teacher. Have you ever heard of "humility" in Christ? I will pray for you brother...
BTW, Jesus and the Disciples all followed the 7th day Sabbath, in case you missed the scripture.
It was the ceremonial "Sabbaths" that Christ fulfilled which we are no longer required to follow.
May the good Lord open your eyes and humble your heart.
I asked: "Where in the New Testament Scriptures is there any commandment for us to observe the Old Testament ordinances of the Sabbath?"
Your answer: "Jesus and the Disciples all followed the 7th day Sabbath, in case you missed the scripture."
Of course they did. The law and prophets were fulfilled in Jesus Christ after He died and rose from the dead (Mat 7:12), but you did NOT answer my question, and I had a suspicion that you wouldn't answer it because you can't, or it will invalidate your arguments.
This is why I wanted you to stop all the formalities and niceties, because, as you can see, you ran past the truth into railing accusations, calling me "arrogant, self-righteous, indignant" for pointing out your deception and hypocrisy. This shows us the filth in your heart (Mat 15:18), and I can see past your fluffy language very easily because I've been doing this for a long time. I do appreciate you being much more direct in your second email, and showing the truth of who you really are. It saved me a lot of time. You are free to go and believe whatever you want, but I am not here to help you justify yourself in your works-based ideologies, and though I appreciate you listening for as long as you claimed to have listened to my teachings, it would be good for you to depart from this ministry because we are not like-minded in Christ.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
-Phil 2:2
Take care and have a great day.
END OF DISCUSSION
He spelled "Whoa" as "Woe," and that actually made it pretty funny for those of you who know the difference in definition of those terms. Well, technically, it would make it pretty vindictive, but that's why I said it was funny.
Some interesting notes, and I want everyone to pay close attention to this. I have NEVER heard from this guy before. I personal find it fascinating that he claims to be an "avid" reader/listener, but I've never heard from him before, not in email, comments, letters in the mail, or any other medium... nothing. The ONLY time I hear from him is when he wants to complain. Therefore, we already have evidence, before he's even started writing, that his intention is to make me into a version of himself, and that's not what this ministry is for.
I also find it interesting how many people write me these types of emails, and have no thought to consider that I have had these discussions on this same subject with MANY people over the last 14 years I've been working in ministry. They act like this is the first time I have ever heard someone complain about this, or have ever heard these arguments (multiple times) from other people who also do not understand the Scriptures. So when I tell them to stop beating around the bush and get to their point, they get angry because they thought their niceties was "humility," and therefore, a rejection of their niceties leaves them without a way to justify themselves to be thoughtful, despite the fact that the basic information they are providing exposes them, and they never understood how their own words revealed the truth about them.
No one can hide it completely:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18
He stated he wants to give me an "admonition," which is a declaration that I have done wrong (by definition), not a "major concern," which are two very different things (because a major concern is not the same as sin, which requires admonition), so I'm already seeing contradictions before he has finished his first sentence. Notice how he said he hasn't attended church buildings or denominations, but he did not mention anywhere else that he fellowships with other Christians. I'm not condemning someone for not having regular fellowship (because I can understand the reasons why), but when there is a lack of fellowship in someone who claims to be of Christ, there are patterns of problems that arise that they typically don't see, and I can see some of it coming through in Kevin's email.
It was hilarious to watch him explode in rage as soon as I pointed out the deception of his loaded question, and then watch him immediately accuse me of not having humility. Define projection.
I really wish men like this could be more reasonable because it would be fascinating to take them through a back-and-forth conversation on this. Notice, in his second letter, after he started in on his contention and railing accusations, that he specifically pointed out that the "ceremonial Sabbaths" were fulfilled in Christ. What he didn't realize is that he just hammered the final nail in the coffin of his own argument by saying that.
If he could have calmed himself down, and handled himself like an adult (let alone a Christian who thinks he's being humble and not just standing on pretense with fluffy words), I would have asked him HOW he "keeps the Sabbath day." The reason that question is very key is because whatever comes out of his mouth next HAS to be based on Scripture, not only because he demanded it from me (which means he's under the same rules of engagement), but also because, since God declared the Sabbath day, then He also set down the rules on HOW to observe it.
This means that, no matter what Kevin would have told me, it would have contradicted his statement that Christ fulfilled the "ceremonial Sabbaths." If he said we are supposed to rest (without getting into the details of what that means because that would be whole separate fascinating conversation of him trying to set a rule system for everyone based on his presuppositions), then I would ask him why Christ didn't fulfill that?
I don't think he could have handled a fraction of that conversation without blowing up in rage. Again, why is he so angry? Because, in the end, he can claim "grace through faith" all he wants, but he believes his alleged "keeping of the Sabbath" is what justifies him, just like the tithers hold up their tithe as a coat of arms the second you point out that they have no repentance in their hearts.
As opposed to Kevin, I have no problem with him whether he wants to honor a day for the Lord or not, which is what Paul taught us in the New Testament. (Rom 14:5-6) However, he has a problem with anyone who does not adhere to the rules that he has set for himself to honor a day for the Lord, and that is what is meant when Paul concluded that:
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
-Rom 14:10
This is not referring to judgment in general, which is our duty as Christ commanded in John 7:24, but not to judge in unrighteousness and hypocrisy (which is what Christ means in Mat 7:1), to judge how one honors the Lord according to his own convictions. Perhaps one day Kevin can learn the doctrine of repentance and remission of sins, so he can see clearly to be in like mind with the rest of the church, and I hope the Lord God will show him mercy and He has shown me mercy.
Feel free to comment below if you want to respond to Kevin's letter.
223
Wild Emails @ CLE / An Example of a Letter I Won't Answer
« on: October 09, 2022, 09:30:25 AM »
I thought this was a fitting example of the types of letters I do not respond to. It's rare that I will not answer an email I receive, but this is one of them. You all are welcome to give your own answers to it on this thread if you would like, but I'm not wasting my time with someone who is making rapid-fire statements of things he obviously, for the most part, does not understand, and then ignores the fact that his letter, as a whole, makes no sense because it has no coherence.
In short, it's just rambling. It's just weird to go up to someone you just met and start saying all this. Judge for yourselves.
ED FROM AUSTRALIA:
dear brother Christopher, I want to thank you for the time it took you to produce the work on creation and the Great Flood.
Indeed the world has changed formats several times over the last 6000 years.
I am certain that each version was always in God's master plan.
The fact that 4 Great Rivers flowed out of Eden is its self a marvel.
Although there's zero evidence or existing proof of Eden, I'm confident Eden was a vast Garden, I'm talking larger than say France or Germany.
In that Garden lived all Creation so it must have been huge.
It is with interest you mention that belief in your post is not a salvation matter.
I 100% agree. As millions of people have lived and died without even knowing the Lord Jesus, there clearly is a plan for all those people.
As the Lord Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, He has paved a way for that salvation to occur, that I am 100% certain.
I'm not sure I'm on the huge Ice sheet thing pre flood but clearly the world was something else to behold.
I'm not even sure about the giants thing although how past monuments were constructed does challenge the mind?
But I'll leave you with this thought, when the 7 year famine struck the known world, Israel with all his folk moved to Egypt where they resided 400 years.
After the 10 plagues, Israel departed Egypt with 600,000 men over the age of 20.
If slaves, women, kids and servants are added to this total, way north of 5 million souls migrated out of Egypt, can you even imagine such a scale even in this modern world?
And to think this happened to the wealthiest and richest Nation that ever existed? What's even more amazing is Egypt was still a force during Roman times but well south of 90% of what it was.
I mention this Exodus event because not even 1% of people who have ever lived can fathom how vast Egypt was 4000 years ago.
These Africans dominated Global trade for over 1500 years.
The Egypt of today is only by name only. The real Egyptians like OT Israel long perished.
Please note those of today who claim to be Israel and Jews are a 100% perversion. Not a single drop of Biblical Israeli blood exists in these Yiddish Babylonian Talmudic frauds. Even their 6 million WW2 swindle of the Germans is more proof of these anti Christ pagans.
Have you ever read their pagan filth known as the Talmud?
It's no wonder early Christian Orders had this filth burned and banned.
Well, thanks for your time and I wish you all life has to offer and of course Salvation thru out Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ thru the Father.
ps, I pray you have not taken the dreaded covid shots? If you have, don't take any more and begin taking iodine for the rest of your life. I'd suggest a treatment path of at least 10 drops of 5% solution for at least the first 5 years
Satan has found a very evil method to harm and kill millions of people via a fake and twisted medical system. Eat well and reduce refined carbs.
END OF LETTER
If I had to guess, I would say this man spends VERY little time in actual study in the doctrine of God's Word.
In short, it's just rambling. It's just weird to go up to someone you just met and start saying all this. Judge for yourselves.
ED FROM AUSTRALIA:
dear brother Christopher, I want to thank you for the time it took you to produce the work on creation and the Great Flood.
Indeed the world has changed formats several times over the last 6000 years.
I am certain that each version was always in God's master plan.
The fact that 4 Great Rivers flowed out of Eden is its self a marvel.
Although there's zero evidence or existing proof of Eden, I'm confident Eden was a vast Garden, I'm talking larger than say France or Germany.
In that Garden lived all Creation so it must have been huge.
It is with interest you mention that belief in your post is not a salvation matter.
I 100% agree. As millions of people have lived and died without even knowing the Lord Jesus, there clearly is a plan for all those people.
As the Lord Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, He has paved a way for that salvation to occur, that I am 100% certain.
I'm not sure I'm on the huge Ice sheet thing pre flood but clearly the world was something else to behold.
I'm not even sure about the giants thing although how past monuments were constructed does challenge the mind?
But I'll leave you with this thought, when the 7 year famine struck the known world, Israel with all his folk moved to Egypt where they resided 400 years.
After the 10 plagues, Israel departed Egypt with 600,000 men over the age of 20.
If slaves, women, kids and servants are added to this total, way north of 5 million souls migrated out of Egypt, can you even imagine such a scale even in this modern world?
And to think this happened to the wealthiest and richest Nation that ever existed? What's even more amazing is Egypt was still a force during Roman times but well south of 90% of what it was.
I mention this Exodus event because not even 1% of people who have ever lived can fathom how vast Egypt was 4000 years ago.
These Africans dominated Global trade for over 1500 years.
The Egypt of today is only by name only. The real Egyptians like OT Israel long perished.
Please note those of today who claim to be Israel and Jews are a 100% perversion. Not a single drop of Biblical Israeli blood exists in these Yiddish Babylonian Talmudic frauds. Even their 6 million WW2 swindle of the Germans is more proof of these anti Christ pagans.
Have you ever read their pagan filth known as the Talmud?
It's no wonder early Christian Orders had this filth burned and banned.
Well, thanks for your time and I wish you all life has to offer and of course Salvation thru out Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ thru the Father.
ps, I pray you have not taken the dreaded covid shots? If you have, don't take any more and begin taking iodine for the rest of your life. I'd suggest a treatment path of at least 10 drops of 5% solution for at least the first 5 years
Satan has found a very evil method to harm and kill millions of people via a fake and twisted medical system. Eat well and reduce refined carbs.
END OF LETTER
If I had to guess, I would say this man spends VERY little time in actual study in the doctrine of God's Word.
224
Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction
« on: October 06, 2022, 05:19:03 PM »
He never came back, so I deleted his account. I have no idea why they come here. Is it to try to get someone to verify them in their works-based circular reasoning?
225
What's New @ CLE / (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p21
« on: October 03, 2022, 07:49:38 PM »226
Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction
« on: September 30, 2022, 08:55:17 AM »
I think Ellie summed it up pretty well. If you're here to have a discussion about the doctrines of Jesus Christ, you should let us know that's why you're here so we can have that conversation. Your first post did not make it clear to me how you found this site and why you joined.
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
-2Ti 4:2
The Biblical Understanding of Baptism
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
-2Ti 4:2
The Biblical Understanding of Baptism
227
What's New @ CLE / (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p20
« on: September 26, 2022, 12:51:43 PM »228
What's New @ CLE / Re: (ARTICLE) Jesus Said There Are Many False Converts
« on: September 25, 2022, 07:44:06 AM »
I fixed that. It now reads:
This king is God the Father, who has prepared a marriage feast (i.e. a wedding celebration) for His Son, the bridegroom, who is Jesus Christ in this analogy, and the marriage of the bridegroom is to the bride, which is the church. The king sent his servants (i.e. men like John the Baptist) to call his guests to come to the wedding, but they would not come, meaning that those who were bidden (i.e. in this case, the Jews) rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, refused to have fellowship with God, the very God they claimed to serve.
It should be noted that the grace of the king is made clear in this parable because the king has no obligation to anyone, and these invitations to take part in the celebration are a kindness. These guests have no need to pay any cost for the festivities, and were simply offered to come and enjoy the marriage supper, but in pridefulness and hatred of heart, they rejected the King's grace.
This king is God the Father, who has prepared a marriage feast (i.e. a wedding celebration) for His Son, the bridegroom, who is Jesus Christ in this analogy, and the marriage of the bridegroom is to the bride, which is the church. The king sent his servants (i.e. men like John the Baptist) to call his guests to come to the wedding, but they would not come, meaning that those who were bidden (i.e. in this case, the Jews) rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, refused to have fellowship with God, the very God they claimed to serve.
It should be noted that the grace of the king is made clear in this parable because the king has no obligation to anyone, and these invitations to take part in the celebration are a kindness. These guests have no need to pay any cost for the festivities, and were simply offered to come and enjoy the marriage supper, but in pridefulness and hatred of heart, they rejected the King's grace.
229
What's New @ CLE / (ARTICLE) Jesus Said There Are Many False Converts
« on: September 23, 2022, 03:14:54 PM »
Jesus Said There Are Many False Converts
This is a completely new teaching to overwrite the old teaching I had called "False Converts vs Eternal Security." I go into much more detail about the parables of Jesus Christ, and His warnings to the church that there would be many false converts, and how to identify them.
This is a completely new teaching to overwrite the old teaching I had called "False Converts vs Eternal Security." I go into much more detail about the parables of Jesus Christ, and His warnings to the church that there would be many false converts, and how to identify them.
230
What's New @ CLE / (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p19
« on: September 12, 2022, 02:43:30 PM »231
What's New @ CLE / (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p18
« on: September 05, 2022, 03:23:27 PM »232
General Discussion / Re: Here is Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life,
« on: September 05, 2022, 10:21:31 AM »
You can tell he's giving a fake name and location too. I think I remember this guy now. This isn't the first time he's done this. Does he just stop by once a year or so to say "REEEEE!" and then get banned again?
233
General Discussion / Re: Here is Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life,
« on: September 04, 2022, 09:19:50 AM »
Because you're already looking to be a little on the crazy side (i.e. you appear to be someone who is not going to have a rational discussion with us), I'm going to be straight-forward with you. You either read and follow the forum rules, or you get banned. It's your choice. Here's a link to those rules that you signed and agreed to when you joined:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
I'll give you until the end of the day.
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
I'll give you until the end of the day.
234
Wild Emails @ CLE / Covid19 Vaccine is NOT Mark of the Beast
« on: September 03, 2022, 09:59:06 AM »
I've had this question posed to me enough that I wanted to make this post so I can refer back to it if anyone else writes to me with concerns that the Covid-19 vaccine is allegedly supposed to be "the mark of the beast." It's completely nonsense if you simply read the Scripture slowly and take some time to think about it.
The following person was not wrong to write me his inquiry, but I wanted to share this so others can understand the matter more clearly.
RAMCO FROM PHILIPPINES:
Is the Covid 19 vaxxine the Mark of the beast? Chris, you have to be one of the most biblically sound person i know. With so much claims and he-said/she-said floating around since the pandemic , what does scripture really say about the motb? Is it this c19 vaxx? How can you easily explain all the talk about it changing your DNA, or the left hand/forehead being symbolic, and the 060606 patent? Not to mention the many brethren getting dreams and visions confirming each other about how this is officially the Motb! Please chris, as someone who took the Vaxx last year (reluctantly) i really dont know what to do.
Well, you need to stay in prayer for God's mercy concerning your own health because that's all you can do now. However, I've had people write to me about these concerns before. Here was the response I gave to another person:
*********** EMAIL FROM OCT 2021 ***********
If you have heard anyone say that the vaccine is the "mark of the beast," then you can rest assured they are a false teacher, and they usually say those types of things because it draws in an audience and they make more money.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
-Rev 14:9
If anyone can show me where people are getting injected in their foreheads, I'll consider this. Until then, it's nonsense. Other generations in other eras have made similar claims. People in Europe thought this was happening with the Germans during World War 2, and it didn't happen then either, so I would recommend changing whoever you're listening to because they're likely scamming you.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
-2Pe 2:1-3
***********
If you have "brethren" that are saying they are getting visions and dreams from God about the C19 vax being the mark of the beast, that means they're liars and false prophets (provable by Scripture), and those who serve God should have no fellowship with them. (2Co 6:14-18)
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
-Jer 14:14
END OF DISCUSSION
After I sent him this email, I got an error message back saying that the email address he gave me didn't exist. I noticed there were two S letters side by side in the address ("ss"), so I removed one to see if he typed it wrong, and resent the email. If he doesn't get it, at least it will be here. That's why everyone needs to DOUBLE CHECK the info you put into the contact form on my contact page, and if you ever sent me an email and didn't get anything in return, that might have been the reason.
No one is getting a C19 vax in their hand. No one is being jabbed in their forehead. So why is it that so many people are claiming its the mark of the beast? Well, one of the reasons is for self righteousness because if they can claim it is the mark of the beast, and they didn't take it, then they can say they're right with God and going to heaven because they "resisted the mark." They place themselves in a "holier-than-thou" position over others in arrogance.
Saying that the C19 vax in the "mark" creates sensationalism, and false preacher, false prophets, and false evangelists LOVE sensationalism because it always draws in a crowd of false converts who shower them with praise and money. However, condemning their lies only gets you ridicule by most of those people, but I'm going to tell them the truth anyway.
If anyone wonders why I haven't made any kind of article saying this, it's because I don't listen to people like that, and I told our church as early as February of 2020 that Covid 19 was a political scam. I didn't even have knowledge of the war that we were in at the time, but it was clear as day that they were using this as a political attack, and as time went on, we all discovered that it was MUCH more than just a political attack.
Remember, there are also a lot of false teachers out there who adopted a corrupt ideology that they are going to prepare this world to "receive the kingdom," meaning that they think they have to go through certain events in Revelation (which they end up dumbing down to pathetic, placid day-to-day mundane events to make their lives more meaningful in their own imaginations), and then there will be some great revival, and it will usher in Jesus Christ's second coming. That is a lie from the devil because the only great "revival" there will be is a great falling away, meaning that these churchgoers, who are not of Christ, will celebrate their ecumenical false doctrines, united under the final antichrist, and never see him coming because he's going to preach their false messages and fulfill their false prophecies.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
-2Th 2:3
The deception will be so great, it will deceive the whole world, except those who have the Holy Spirit to guide them, and those Christians are going to be hunted and killed for the sake of Jesus Christ by the very churchgoers who claim to serve Christ. And they won't hear the truth until the day that Christ separates the sheep from the goats.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
-Mat 24:24
The following person was not wrong to write me his inquiry, but I wanted to share this so others can understand the matter more clearly.
RAMCO FROM PHILIPPINES:
Is the Covid 19 vaxxine the Mark of the beast? Chris, you have to be one of the most biblically sound person i know. With so much claims and he-said/she-said floating around since the pandemic , what does scripture really say about the motb? Is it this c19 vaxx? How can you easily explain all the talk about it changing your DNA, or the left hand/forehead being symbolic, and the 060606 patent? Not to mention the many brethren getting dreams and visions confirming each other about how this is officially the Motb! Please chris, as someone who took the Vaxx last year (reluctantly) i really dont know what to do.
Well, you need to stay in prayer for God's mercy concerning your own health because that's all you can do now. However, I've had people write to me about these concerns before. Here was the response I gave to another person:
*********** EMAIL FROM OCT 2021 ***********
If you have heard anyone say that the vaccine is the "mark of the beast," then you can rest assured they are a false teacher, and they usually say those types of things because it draws in an audience and they make more money.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
-Rev 14:9
If anyone can show me where people are getting injected in their foreheads, I'll consider this. Until then, it's nonsense. Other generations in other eras have made similar claims. People in Europe thought this was happening with the Germans during World War 2, and it didn't happen then either, so I would recommend changing whoever you're listening to because they're likely scamming you.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
-2Pe 2:1-3
***********
If you have "brethren" that are saying they are getting visions and dreams from God about the C19 vax being the mark of the beast, that means they're liars and false prophets (provable by Scripture), and those who serve God should have no fellowship with them. (2Co 6:14-18)
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
-Jer 14:14
END OF DISCUSSION
After I sent him this email, I got an error message back saying that the email address he gave me didn't exist. I noticed there were two S letters side by side in the address ("ss"), so I removed one to see if he typed it wrong, and resent the email. If he doesn't get it, at least it will be here. That's why everyone needs to DOUBLE CHECK the info you put into the contact form on my contact page, and if you ever sent me an email and didn't get anything in return, that might have been the reason.
No one is getting a C19 vax in their hand. No one is being jabbed in their forehead. So why is it that so many people are claiming its the mark of the beast? Well, one of the reasons is for self righteousness because if they can claim it is the mark of the beast, and they didn't take it, then they can say they're right with God and going to heaven because they "resisted the mark." They place themselves in a "holier-than-thou" position over others in arrogance.
Saying that the C19 vax in the "mark" creates sensationalism, and false preacher, false prophets, and false evangelists LOVE sensationalism because it always draws in a crowd of false converts who shower them with praise and money. However, condemning their lies only gets you ridicule by most of those people, but I'm going to tell them the truth anyway.
If anyone wonders why I haven't made any kind of article saying this, it's because I don't listen to people like that, and I told our church as early as February of 2020 that Covid 19 was a political scam. I didn't even have knowledge of the war that we were in at the time, but it was clear as day that they were using this as a political attack, and as time went on, we all discovered that it was MUCH more than just a political attack.
Remember, there are also a lot of false teachers out there who adopted a corrupt ideology that they are going to prepare this world to "receive the kingdom," meaning that they think they have to go through certain events in Revelation (which they end up dumbing down to pathetic, placid day-to-day mundane events to make their lives more meaningful in their own imaginations), and then there will be some great revival, and it will usher in Jesus Christ's second coming. That is a lie from the devil because the only great "revival" there will be is a great falling away, meaning that these churchgoers, who are not of Christ, will celebrate their ecumenical false doctrines, united under the final antichrist, and never see him coming because he's going to preach their false messages and fulfill their false prophecies.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
-2Th 2:3
The deception will be so great, it will deceive the whole world, except those who have the Holy Spirit to guide them, and those Christians are going to be hunted and killed for the sake of Jesus Christ by the very churchgoers who claim to serve Christ. And they won't hear the truth until the day that Christ separates the sheep from the goats.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
-Mat 24:24
235
Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves
« on: August 29, 2022, 02:55:28 PM »
Ellie, that's a really good assessment. It is possible that Brian has lied to us about his identity. He may not at all be who he claims to be.
236
What's New @ CLE / (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p17
« on: August 29, 2022, 02:46:14 PM »237
Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves
« on: August 29, 2022, 09:59:06 AM »
Our church had quite a bit of discussion about Brian's letter yesterday over our Skype call after our weekly Bible study, in which many members of our church shared the number of red flags they had in their mind about the things he was saying on the forum. We all were practicing patience and charity with him, but he took advantage of us in that regard, and ignored my email request to come and hear the church, as is the duty of Christians in Matthew 18:15-17, and therefore, we have removed him from the church for unrepentant violations of Scripture, as well as some very strange things that we don't trust, meaning that we believe he has lied to us about a number of things.
One of the interesting things about his email is that he said that his letter was a combination of arguments made by him, his wife, and his son, but that is just what he told us. We don't know what to believe right now, and we suspect that his wife and son may have differing opinions on this matter. One of the reasons we were led to this is because I decided to look back on the emails I had received from Brian, and while looking up my archives, I also found emails from last spring under the SAME email address, but with a DIFFERENT name.
The emails from last March were under the name "Adam," with a different last name as well, and here is that conversation. Please note how "political" the subject of these emails are, and note how I had to say I was not getting involved in discussing those topics with him because that wasn't my purpose in ministry:
ADAM FROM FLORIDA, MARCH 27th, 2022:
My wife and I really appreciate your ministry. You and your wife (as helper) have helped sharpen us. Regarding income tax, we also knew there is no law requiring it, and we no longer donate it. We pay Peymon Mottohedeh at Freedom Law School (livefreenow.org) to help with any IRS correspondence. We chose him partly because he lives near us in Florida, so we could meet him and his staff in person. We also chose him because he seems to have the longest and perhaps best track record of helping people successfully do this. We struggle a bit, because he is not a real christian, even though he sometimes quotes verses like 'the truth will set you free'. And we struggle because the consequences can be dire if he is not as helpful as he claims. Various verses give us peace, such as when Jesus seems to challenge real christians to be as street smart with finances as pagans. And while we want everyone to be a real christian, we know that's not reality. For example, our airline pilot may not be a real christian, but our top concern for our flight is a good pilot. Do you have any wisdom you can share that would either encourage or discourage our decision? We are glad to suggest a Skype call time ,if you prefer.
I'm sitting here at my desk trying to figure out what to say and I can't think of anything, which is why I am writing this sentence. I don't know what you want me to say. Essentially, you are asking me something that is no different than this: "I bought milk at the grocery store, but the cashier is not a real Christian--was this the right decision?"
I cannot answer these questions. That is not what I'm here for. I am unsure what else to say. But thank you for taking the time to listen to what I have worked on, and I'm glad the Lord Jesus Christ has allowed me to be of some service to you in that capacity. Have a great day.
Thank you Chris. We certainly understand, and it was a more open-ended question than we often ask. We didn't know if you might even have happened to have an opinion on Peymon and whether you think it's not necessary to have an 'expert' help you, since we presume (but only presume) that you also don't make 'donations' to the IRS, since you're one of the few people we've encountered who realizes there is no law requiring payment of Federal tax (unless for example one is a federal employee or lives in DC). If that helps narrow our question or spur a thought, we'd welcome ANY input you have. But if not, we certainly understand. Godspeed and keep up the great work.
We didn't know if you might even have happened to have an opinion on Peymon
I don't know who that is, so no.
one of the few people we've encountered who realizes there is no law requiring payment of Federal tax
Please do not misunderstand; I have never said there was no law requiring payment of Federal taxes. What I said was that Federal taxes are unconstitutional, and I have said that there is no law requiring anyone to FILE a Federal Income Tax form. However, I do not discuss those things in my ministry (as I have previously stated in my teachings) because that is not what I am here to do. (i.e. My service is to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.)
I think that's all I can say for now. The only other thing that I will add is that, pretty soon, you won't have to worry about the IRS anymore. If you want to keep up to date on those topics, then download Telegram and follow my World News channel.
https://t.me/clenews
Thank you very much Chris. We just joined your Telegram, and it's great. It's cool that even have a post today about property taxes, and thank you for writing your representatives. I see some other older posts about taxes that are very helpful. I understand this is not the focus of your ministry, but since we're also new to your website and you bring up taxes occasionally, we will join you in praying for our public servants. And I want to offer that if you ever want some of your listeners or followers to join you in other grass roots efforts, sign us up. God has opened some interesting doors for us the past couple years. For example, we've become friends with a leading Christian constitutional lawyer (yes, ha, a scribe) who does a humorous yet very unique and insightful daily blog at coffeeandcovid.com. I never thought I'd compliment a lawyer! Like you, he sees the big picture and spiritual battle unfolding. Also, just know you have two more people from south west Florida praying for your family and with lots of similarities (ie got out of the church system years ago in favor of home church, and have escaped the other big systems like 'Healthcare' and Government schools. Godspeed.
I can already tell you that I won't be starting up anything grassroots like that... as much as I am tempted. I need to stick to doing what I was called to do, and I have to keep praying that God will bring in proper leadership to do what's right in our state. Thankfully, you already have people doing good things in yours (i.e. I know first hand, since I was in Florida in December visiting my parents), and we will keep praying that this war against the Deep State will end as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible.
END OF DISCUSSION
Having to guess (because Brian won't come forward out of his "safe space" and be honest with us), I would say this is probably Brian's son, but leaves me wondering because he has a different last name than his father, which is a bit strange. (We have theories, but don't know the reasons for that for sure.) Because of this, we are somewhat led to believe that Adam has a differing opinion on these matters than his dad, and I have a suspicion that the reason Brian was so overly "agreeable" in his 20 posts to join our church was so he could come in, listen, try to find some fault he could complain about, and convince his son and family to stay away from this ministry because there are aspects of it he doesn't like, and he came to us deceitfully in the first place.
Now, that may not be the case, but because Brian chose to tuck tail and run instead of reasoning together with us (like we would expect a Christian to do), we cannot assess the whole truth of the matter, so we have to operate based on the evidence we have.
One of the interesting things about his email is that he said that his letter was a combination of arguments made by him, his wife, and his son, but that is just what he told us. We don't know what to believe right now, and we suspect that his wife and son may have differing opinions on this matter. One of the reasons we were led to this is because I decided to look back on the emails I had received from Brian, and while looking up my archives, I also found emails from last spring under the SAME email address, but with a DIFFERENT name.
The emails from last March were under the name "Adam," with a different last name as well, and here is that conversation. Please note how "political" the subject of these emails are, and note how I had to say I was not getting involved in discussing those topics with him because that wasn't my purpose in ministry:
ADAM FROM FLORIDA, MARCH 27th, 2022:
My wife and I really appreciate your ministry. You and your wife (as helper) have helped sharpen us. Regarding income tax, we also knew there is no law requiring it, and we no longer donate it. We pay Peymon Mottohedeh at Freedom Law School (livefreenow.org) to help with any IRS correspondence. We chose him partly because he lives near us in Florida, so we could meet him and his staff in person. We also chose him because he seems to have the longest and perhaps best track record of helping people successfully do this. We struggle a bit, because he is not a real christian, even though he sometimes quotes verses like 'the truth will set you free'. And we struggle because the consequences can be dire if he is not as helpful as he claims. Various verses give us peace, such as when Jesus seems to challenge real christians to be as street smart with finances as pagans. And while we want everyone to be a real christian, we know that's not reality. For example, our airline pilot may not be a real christian, but our top concern for our flight is a good pilot. Do you have any wisdom you can share that would either encourage or discourage our decision? We are glad to suggest a Skype call time ,if you prefer.
I'm sitting here at my desk trying to figure out what to say and I can't think of anything, which is why I am writing this sentence. I don't know what you want me to say. Essentially, you are asking me something that is no different than this: "I bought milk at the grocery store, but the cashier is not a real Christian--was this the right decision?"
I cannot answer these questions. That is not what I'm here for. I am unsure what else to say. But thank you for taking the time to listen to what I have worked on, and I'm glad the Lord Jesus Christ has allowed me to be of some service to you in that capacity. Have a great day.
Thank you Chris. We certainly understand, and it was a more open-ended question than we often ask. We didn't know if you might even have happened to have an opinion on Peymon and whether you think it's not necessary to have an 'expert' help you, since we presume (but only presume) that you also don't make 'donations' to the IRS, since you're one of the few people we've encountered who realizes there is no law requiring payment of Federal tax (unless for example one is a federal employee or lives in DC). If that helps narrow our question or spur a thought, we'd welcome ANY input you have. But if not, we certainly understand. Godspeed and keep up the great work.
We didn't know if you might even have happened to have an opinion on Peymon
I don't know who that is, so no.
one of the few people we've encountered who realizes there is no law requiring payment of Federal tax
Please do not misunderstand; I have never said there was no law requiring payment of Federal taxes. What I said was that Federal taxes are unconstitutional, and I have said that there is no law requiring anyone to FILE a Federal Income Tax form. However, I do not discuss those things in my ministry (as I have previously stated in my teachings) because that is not what I am here to do. (i.e. My service is to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.)
I think that's all I can say for now. The only other thing that I will add is that, pretty soon, you won't have to worry about the IRS anymore. If you want to keep up to date on those topics, then download Telegram and follow my World News channel.
https://t.me/clenews
Thank you very much Chris. We just joined your Telegram, and it's great. It's cool that even have a post today about property taxes, and thank you for writing your representatives. I see some other older posts about taxes that are very helpful. I understand this is not the focus of your ministry, but since we're also new to your website and you bring up taxes occasionally, we will join you in praying for our public servants. And I want to offer that if you ever want some of your listeners or followers to join you in other grass roots efforts, sign us up. God has opened some interesting doors for us the past couple years. For example, we've become friends with a leading Christian constitutional lawyer (yes, ha, a scribe) who does a humorous yet very unique and insightful daily blog at coffeeandcovid.com. I never thought I'd compliment a lawyer! Like you, he sees the big picture and spiritual battle unfolding. Also, just know you have two more people from south west Florida praying for your family and with lots of similarities (ie got out of the church system years ago in favor of home church, and have escaped the other big systems like 'Healthcare' and Government schools. Godspeed.
I can already tell you that I won't be starting up anything grassroots like that... as much as I am tempted. I need to stick to doing what I was called to do, and I have to keep praying that God will bring in proper leadership to do what's right in our state. Thankfully, you already have people doing good things in yours (i.e. I know first hand, since I was in Florida in December visiting my parents), and we will keep praying that this war against the Deep State will end as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible.
END OF DISCUSSION
Having to guess (because Brian won't come forward out of his "safe space" and be honest with us), I would say this is probably Brian's son, but leaves me wondering because he has a different last name than his father, which is a bit strange. (We have theories, but don't know the reasons for that for sure.) Because of this, we are somewhat led to believe that Adam has a differing opinion on these matters than his dad, and I have a suspicion that the reason Brian was so overly "agreeable" in his 20 posts to join our church was so he could come in, listen, try to find some fault he could complain about, and convince his son and family to stay away from this ministry because there are aspects of it he doesn't like, and he came to us deceitfully in the first place.
Now, that may not be the case, but because Brian chose to tuck tail and run instead of reasoning together with us (like we would expect a Christian to do), we cannot assess the whole truth of the matter, so we have to operate based on the evidence we have.
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Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves
« on: August 28, 2022, 09:25:17 AM »Quote
You have no idea how much time (over years) Chris has spent writing the numerous books and articles on the website and he continually writes and rewrites to improve the articles he has already written. I am his editor and, right now, we are working on publishing the third book this year. I don’t know if you do that kind of thing and have any idea how labour intensive it is but seeing you didn’t take the time to ask anybody anything about anything, I suppose it’s because you don’t care about the truth and you would rather answer a matter before hearing it.Speaking of which, Sil, sorry it's taking me so long to get back with you on the next phase of that. My parents asked me to develop a Lease Agreement contract for them with their rental house. They haven't had one with the renters there for the past 25 years, but have run into some problems with them, and they need a contract (and they can't afford a lawyer, nor do they have the knowledge to make one), so I'm having to do research and write that up for them, so it's taking me time. I would normally just write that to you in an email, but I figured other interested parties might want to know that, so they can use that to point out my laziness.
Quote
it may be a financial deterrent to some for joining the call. Sometimes people can only listen because they are at work etcOh, and don't forget that some women have to sneak on to listen because their so-called "Christian" husbands hate me because of what I teach on Biblical matters, or hate our church as a whole. And we all know the reason for that is because we're all too lazy and political.
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Wild Emails @ CLE / Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves
« on: August 28, 2022, 01:25:05 AM »
If anyone is wondering, this is the same Brian from Florida who recently joined our forum (mid August 2022), and asked to join our church. He joined our church, entered into our Skype calls, came in late each time, had audio problems where he said he couldn't hear anything, and never spoke one single word to us in the small fraction of two meetings he attended over the course of four days, then chose to write me this letter announcing he was leaving:
BRIAN FROM FLORIDA:
Christopher, I think it might benefit the group for me to share some thoughts with you, as the founder and recognized leader. I hope you will share them with the group before you might share any thoughts with them, so the group can hear this as if from me, and not possibly have preconceptions. I say that because on your forum, I’ve noticed sometimes you’ll share all or part of an email that also includes your thoughts. Since my thoughts relate to the group, it doesn’t seem to be a situation where it’s necessary for me to go to you privately first. And the spirit of this online forum sems to be to share as a group. Part of my feedback does address a few of your comments, but still as part of the group interaction. Still, I’m going to you first, out of respect. I share these thoughts with humility, as iron sharpens iron, hoping that any or all of these points may help make this group more glorifying to our Father, and therefore in part more encouraging to each other. I share this after participating in the online forum for about a week and then with calls this week for the 1st time (much of Monday’s call and part of Thursday’s call, both of which I had a laptop audio issue). I realize Monday’s call was a prayer meeting, and Thursday’s call was simply a discussion. I wanted to at least join a 2nd call, to make sure the 1st call didn’t seem to be an exception. I also share my points as someone who has served in an elder-type of role and has been blessed to be part of small meetings of believers for years, where I seen different styles in various different nations and cultures like in Africa and Latin America. And I have learned some lessons from my own mistakes and things I have seen. And I have always appreciated feedback, so I hope this group does too. At this point, I think God is closing this door for me related to this group, so I am trying to go in peace.
I was waiting for this because you were acting really weird, and your letters were a bit strange. This is why I said I was "cautiously optimistic" (see here) when you first joined the forum because we have seen our share of people doing exactly what you have done so far, and saying the exact same types of things you are about to say in this letter. There were a few initial red flags for me concerning you, but I thought I would just throw all of my concerns into the side of charity and patience (as Christ has taught me), to wait and see all that you had to say, specifically in a group setting. Others in our church had red flags too that we discussed to some extent in our Skype calls before you joined, but I suggested that we show you some charity and patience, and wait for you to have more conversation with us over our Skype meetings, and the church agreed. Just to be clear, you were made a member of our church (i.e. it's already been done), so departing without following the standards Jesus Christ listed out in Matthew 18 (as I quote at the end of this email) will be on you, not on us. It's your decision, but either way, our church isn't made for window shoppers.
I also realize it’s easy for some group members to be defensive, especially when they have a common interest in the group. I would add that this feedback is general consensus from three believers (to include my wife and adult son) who have each been walking with the Lord for years. For the group’s knowledge, I had checked with you out of respect ahead of time, so I knew they were welcome to listen in. I did not influence their reactions. Much of this came before I then shared a few additional thoughts with them. So I really hope that the group will take this to heart, as it comes from both male and female perspectives, and from much different ages.
I can tell you one major inhibitor for everyone to take these things to heart and to take them seriously, and that is your reluctance to share it with them face to face on the calls, out of your own fear and uncharitable judgment that they would not take you seriously and hear you out. Personally, I see that as a back-handed slap, no matter how many "good words" you try to use to smooth it over. If you are not even willing to give these people a chance, the very Christians that you have called "brethren," which is to be a part of a family who cares about you, then I am starting to see a side of you that I don't think is good.
If nothing else, perhaps the Lord is using me for a few days with this group.
As if no one's ever used that justification before. That being said...
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
-Rom 8:28
So let's see what happens.
I also realize it’s tempting to react immediately, and to have reasons for why everything a group does is the way it is, including even technical challenges. I would respectfully ask the group not to do that. I also realize other obvious things, such as every person and group has unique personalities. So I’m trying to focus on the biblical points. I also realize I share at least one idea this group may already do, that just didn’t happen this week. For example, maybe you always do video, and for some reason that wasn’t shared, there was no video this week.
Anyone is free to do video on Mondays and Thursdays. It just becomes a problem for a lot of people for various reasons, so many of them do not do so very often. If that's one of the reasons you don't want to be a part of our church, and you were not even willing to raise that issue live on the call, then you should be ashamed.
So I tried to be reasonable and logical with some observations and conclusions.
I haven't seen anything like that yet. I'll keep reading. I see a lot of pretense and niceties to try and make yourself sound better, but I'm willing to hear you out. (As would all of our church if you would have had the courage and charity in your heart to give them a chance, and not pre-judge them based on your past experiences.)
Also, none of my motive for sharing this is because I disagree with Christopher on certain bible interpretations. In fact, it’s a bit amazing how similar we see so much of God’s word.
I'm starting to wonder about that. We'll see. I want to see what you have to say first.
It seems very unbiblical and odd that this group does not meet face-to-face on its calls.
Provide the Scripture to back up your complaints.
We know the 1st century church met face-to-face when possible, And it is already quite a challenge or question if a group can really act as a healthy body ‘virtually.’
Well, this church has been around for 13 years, and you've been in it for less than a week, so obviously, you must understand better than we do.
So seeing each other face-to-face is even more crucial. There is a reason Paul wrote about his anticipation of meeting brothers and sisters face-to-face (in addition to communicating in writing), and why Jesus says the eye is the lamp to the body (where we can assess each other and better encourage each other, since body language is so much of verbal communication).
And you're taking Matthew 6:22 out of its context and its metaphorical meaning, which contradicts your point that we have a solid agreement on the Bible. I would explain the verse in more detail, but you didn't make much of an argument in the first place, so I don't want to waste my time with it if you don't have any interest in understanding it. That being said, I certainly hope that you will take your concerns to the Christians in our church who have visual impairments, and let them know about their violations against Scripture.
Even if there was face-to-face, the lack of overall interaction and the frequent long gaps of silence seem very odd.
I think it's odd that someone would say it's odd when he confessed he was having audio issues and couldn't hear much of the conversation anyway.
It certainly doesn’t seem like a healthy family of believers, even knowing that every family has issues.
If no one has anything left to say at the moment, why didn't you jump in and say something? That seems a little hypocritical, don't you think?
One logical conclusion is it appears that at least some members, especially women, may not feel comfortable challenging Christopher and / or the status quo, partly because of Christopher’s style.
Ha ha!
I'll let them know that. I gotta' share this on the forum now. I was just thinking about it while reading this part, and that sealed it for me. This needs to be opened up for the whole church to hear. The ladies of our church have their own separate discussion group, and I look forward to their responses to your letter.
As I read through some prior posts, off memory I think it was Ellie (but I know it was at least a woman) who in one thread was defending Christopher in a situation where he was sharing a message from a disgruntled guest or member. And while she defended Christopher in a general way, I thought it was a bit courageous and unusual to see (in this group) that she did admit that he can come across harshly, and she listed a few specific concerns about him. After seeing many of his posts, I agree that he, as the informal leader, can come across often as speaking truth without love. And this sets the tone for the group. His sometimes harsh wording seems simply unnecessary and /or counterproductive.
I speak very directly because I talk with a lot of people. I can't spend a couple of days (as you did) creating a lengthy response to every person who contacts me. I just don't have the time. I know this sounds crazy, but that's why we started up Skype meetings for the church to talk to one another and work those things out. Pretty neat, isn't it?
It is perhaps God’s timing that enabled us to see some other troubling things in such a short period of time in just two calls. For example, on Monday, over a period of at least the last ten minutes of mostly silence, members just started dropping off the call without any closing prayer, goodbyes, etc. We waited until there were only 3 left, and then I figured I should just hang up. And on Thursday, even though we all know the short video that Christopher played was satire, it was very poor judgment for him to share the part where the actor curses God near the end.
Yeah, I didn't like that part at the end either. I shared it for the majority of the video to point out how accurate it was to reality, and sometimes, others in our church share videos of interest, or even documentaries, that have some things we don't like, and we don't approve of. We try to avoid those parts if possible, but we can't avoid everything when analyzing the things of the world. For example, I have shared clips from false preacher Steven Anderson in my teachings that I don't like and don't approve of, but the point is to analyze what is being said from a Biblical perspective. I have had to rebuke others in the church before for sharing things they should not have, and I understand this point very well, but I also don't condemn them and leave because they shared something I didn't like.
As for prayers and goodbyes, I was unaware that every meeting with born again Christians must start and end with prayers. Were there verses of Scripture that commanded that for the church that we need to adjust and adhere to, or is this just coming from your experiences? I gotta' say, for someone who talks about how much we agree on Scripture, you sure do seem to be making a lot of assertions of personal opinion rather than Biblical decree.
That was unnecessary and inappropriate to share, and to at least not give a heads up in advance.
I will agree that I should have said something ahead of time because I had seen it prior to that point, and for that I apologize that you did not get any warning, but (and the church will have to correct me if I'm wrong) I thought I did warn everyone ahead of time that there was some language in this that was not good because they know that I do that all the time.
That should be offensive to all of us.
Yes, and it was offensive to me as well, but it IS the kind of thing that those men say and do in their various corrupt church buildings, which was the message of the satire.
But he also mentioned more than once how this video agreed with everything he has taught for years, which is quite alarming. A key part of the skit involved something very contradictory even to what we see are his political views, which was sarcasm about the pastor and people not wearing masks.
No, I said ALMOST everything. But I'm sure your audio equipment wasn't working very well to hear me say that.
It was remarkably ironic that he and the group seemed to overlook this in the post-video reaction, since in a sense this group is masking their faces as well, and hiding precious faces and smiles that are made in God’s image.
I'm really looking forward to the church seeing your letter, especially since none of us ever wore masks amongst one another, we never stopped meeting together (even locally here at our home), and I warned the church about those things (that they were a scam) as early as Feb of 2020. So if you don't hear anyone commenting about the mask thing, that's because we have had COUNTLESS discussions about it already. Since you keep harping on that your time with us was guided by God, did it ever once occur to you that you are NEW to the church, and have not been part of our discussions that some of us have been talking about for many years before you ever showed up? Is it possible that God is trying to open your eyes to your own arrogance, or is that a thought that cannot be allowed for consideration?
Lastly, on a more minor point, it’s apparent that in a discussion, there can be different political views. But it’s certainly a red flag that Christopher seems to support the ‘Q’ movement so strongly.
"SEEMS to support" is not an argument. That's speculation. I don't support the Q movement, but thanks for asking me a question about it first--that was very charitable of you. (I know Brian's going to be upset that I keep responding facetiously, but I have a hard time NOT doing that when he keeps making absurd statements, and calling them "reasonable.") I believe the Q drops are legitimate from military personnel who police the NSA, and there are some others in the church who also do (because we've done some research), which is why one of our elders was asking me about it on Thursday, and no one has to believe any of that stuff if they don't want to, but that doesn't mean we take them off the table of discussion just because you have a differing opinion.
While he may agree with many of the Q comments, nobody seems to know the source. And the source could very well turn out to be bad. We should be focusing on sources that we know, especially proper versions of the bible and people that we can personally trust or at least verify.
I'm sure our church will enjoy that Geneva back-handed slap. In open discussion, we open up the church to talk about anything that is on their minds, and it changes from week to week. I wish you had informed me beforehand that, after less than a week with us, we would need to change all our meetings and discussions that we have developed over the past decade to fit with your personal feelings. Just give us a list of everything you want changed, the order in which you want things done, the time frame you expect the changes to occur, and your Scriptural backing for all of it, and we'll review it and get back to you.
I’m not here to debate the main position of that movement, but it could also be a very nonproductive and nonbiblical movement designed to keep people waiting on the bench, so to speak. It could keep people always watching (with popcorn symbols like Christopher sometimes posts) to see when enough people supposedly ‘wake up,’ rather than taking more action. In both calls, even the Monday prayer call, we were on quite a bit and we didn’t hear any focus on the bible, prayer, or encouraging each other.
Yikes. You know, I'm going to let the church respond to that on the forum. I want to leave a few things for them to address. I don't know if you'll listen to them or not, but I think they'll want to respond to that themselves.
While there is nothing wrong with having a Thursday discussion that is not necessarily a bible study or worship, it does seem like any group with limited time would at least want to include a heavy dose of God’s word in a discussion.
It depends on the week, but I can see how you think that you have a sound argument based on how many years you have dedicated to be in full attendance with our meetings online.
To again use a 1st century church analogy, we see no indication the persecuted church spent much time debating Roman politics, nor do we have reason to think they did. The danger in getting too political is that it takes our eyes off encouraging each other and glorifying God. Yes, there are going to be many political common ground points among real believers, like not supporting abortion. But what we sense in Christopher’s tone and writings is almost an angry obsession with this topic. One has to question how Christopher, for example, spends so much time almost every day making primarily political posts on a Telegram channel that aren’t necessarily apparently pointing people to Christ, when he could be spending that time in better ways.
I have an angry obsession with Roman politics? Hmm.
I spend most of my work day writing articles and books to teach people the interpretations of Scripture and warn them about false teachers. But obviously, I must be doing the wrong things because Brian's been sitting right next to me viewing everything I do all day, and if only I could watch what he does all day to get a better example, I might be a good Christian. It's a good thing he's here to help me learn how to do everything the right way, and his vast experience in church building leadership is becoming more clear the more he speaks.
And at least guests and new members have to question how much work his wife is doing with the farm and income, as we read on the forum, while he may not be often doing productive work, especially since we read he admits that laziness has been a big sin in the past. A logical question is how much time does Christopher, as the informal leader, spend on political posts rather than teachings, writings, and helping with the farm.
I showed this part of your paragraph to Lorraine. All I can say is, she's not happy with you right now. But, what right does she have to be upset with you? I mean, after all, you've obviously spent so much time out here at our home, and know the ins and outs of our day to judge what we do, so I must be a terrible, lazy minister. The evidence is indisputable, thus saith Brian.
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:24
Now I'm starting to realize why you sent me a private letter, and didn't speak up in Skype or on the forum.
I would caution Christopher and anyone in the group to avoid language and tone with specific words that may convey unnecessarily private info and/or not be encouraging or Christ-like. In one post, for example, I saw he mentioned that his wife had been “abusive.” That is a very strong word and a word with a very gray area of meaning to different people. And it raises many questions. There are also different kinds of abuse.
You know that Lorraine has come on to my audio teachings on the feminism topic and testified publicly on these things, right? Hmm. I doubt you knew that. It's a good thing you asked me before making public statements about it.
Perhaps I would caution Brian to do some research and ask some questions before embarrassing himself with accusatory false statements, but, you know, leopards and spots n' all that.
For example, while one spouse can be harmful physically, another can be harmful emotionally. Some of the posts that Christopher has shared come across as unnecessarily harmful and blunt. And at least in that one thread, it also can come across as prideful that while his wife was abusive, he was loving. That may have been largely the case. But again, for someone using discernment to connect dots, it’s a reasonable guess that the tone and wording that Christopher has always used with her may not have been as loving as he may think.
It sounds like you've been married to Lorraine longer than I have. I have to step back and give ear to your experiences with her; you seem to have much more than me.
For a separate example, as a few of you saw in one of my posts, I posed some friendly perspectives about the KJV bible and another earlier version (it’s not important which one, so as not to distract),
Folks, he's talking about the Geneva Bible. I hope that clears things up for all of you who are confused as to why he didn't mention what it was. He doesn't know or understand that we discuss Biblical topics all the time, and that our whole church discussed his and Ellie's posts about the Geneva Bible in our Skype calls before he ever joined.
after I read his article on the KJV. Again, some of the wording in that article is concerning.
I know, I agree. I need to rewrite that completely into a full-length book. I think I wrote the original draft of that about a decade ago, so I've got a lot of corrections to make.
In the long article, there was only one paragraph with a reference to a particular earlier version that he argued misused a word. It was certainly not a passage that would mislead someone regarding salvation (such as the Message translation of John 3:16).
Oh, look at that. He finally referenced Scripture. I think it's the only time in his entire letter of "Biblical" rebuke.
And he assumed a bad motive of the writer that may not be accurate. Regardless, it seemed unnecessarily harsh to suggest his reader throw away that version, at least based on only that one paragraph. And it seemed a bit concerning, given that the KJV largely used this translation.
Yeah, back then, I was working another job full time, so it was difficult with my sporadic schedule to write up a full expose on every chapter of every new-age version out there, and make hundreds of pages of comparisons. If only I wasn't so lazy.
Speaking of solutions, I will close with a few basic ideas that I hope the group will discuss.
Ooo! Based on everything we have seen so far, this should be totally reasonable and well researched with no bias or rash judgments.
Or, at least, that's what Brian has told us to expect.
Hopefully they are obvious, and they correspond with the above points. 1) I would encourage at least the leader and elders to have at least one video call with any prospective member, or face-to-face if it’s a local person.
You asked me for a private Skype call (via email) before you joined the church, and I said it wasn't necessary because you can say anything on the Skype calls openly with the whole church, but I also told you that I would give you a private Skype call if you thought it was necessary, to which you did not respond to me. So, let me give you a few basic ideas that I hope your family will discuss:
#1 - I would encourage you to listen to what people are saying to you, and speak up if necessary.
In the 1st century church, if a neighbor a mile down the road heard about a group, the group likely wouldn’t just write back and forth a few times and then declare him a member. At least one leader or group member would meet him face-to-face first. And if both parties felt God’s direction, it’s likely the group would then invite that person to at least one group meeting before asking that person to join or giving that person the group’s blessing. 2) Have video calls instead of audio calls. And it’s part of the responsibility of the leader or elders to facilitate everyone’s participation, including those who may like to hardly ever talk and may need encouragement to step out of their comfort zone. Every member of the body needs to function.
#2 - I would encourage you to step out of your comfort zone. That's what veteran Christians (as you claim to be) are already supposed to do. I hope you'll set a better example for others around you in the future.
3) When you have discussions, consider mixing up the topics.
Hey, everyone in our church, we need to take this to heart. I think, after 9 years of having our church online over Skype, we should stop talking about Q every week for the duration of every call.
Maybe you do, but the focus was political in both calls this week and is often about politics in the written threads.
Wow, I didn't realize all I did was just talk about politics. If that is the case, why did you ever start listening to my ministry in the first place? You said it was your wife's suggestion, so maybe she doesn't have as much discernment as you think she does. But I'm not an expert on another man's wife... I defer to you on that.
Oh, and that brings me to #3 - I would encourage you (and your wife and son) to join the call tomorrow for open discussion after the Bible study, so you can hear everyone's responses to your abundant comments.
4) Consider spending much less time on politics. And be careful not to proudly assume that your views represent God’s, when it comes to politics with nuance or gray areas.
Are you talking to the church, or me? I'm getting confused about that at this point. I would love to have you quote me somewhere claiming that I have said that my views represent God when it comes to politics (and I'm unsure why you would even say that), which brings me to...
#4 - I would encourage you to QUOTE people when accusing them of things, instead of paraphrasing their words anyway you wish. That's how corrupt new-age bible versions came into existence.
5) Consider how to make your calls much more welcoming and joyful. For example, each person could share a praise and / or verse from that day. Each person, including new members, could give a periodic short intro or personal update. I realize the group may disagree with much of what I share. It’s not fun for me, but I hope it was worth the time. And I thank Christopher for helping me unpack more Truth, and for the group having invited me to participate. In Truth, Brian
Well, considering that this letter is basically your introduction letter to the church after joining, I would say...
#5 - I would encourage you to be much more welcoming, joyful, charitable, patient, and longsuffering.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
-Gal 5:22-23
I have left A LOT of things out of this response, and that is because of Brian's arrogance. I do not need to explain to him the details of what we say and do when he's not around to provide evidence to him because the Lord God sees what we do, and He knows the truth, which is all that matters. Brian has judged unjustly and in arrogance, and so he's not looking for evidence because he only cares about his feelings and opinions. To say the least, it was appalling that Brian would act this way, professing his desire for face-to-face interaction, and then running away at the first sign of controversy. It's completely hypocritical, but I do have to agree on one point that Brian said:
"the Lord is using me for a few days with this group"
I believe that God had audio issues happen on Brian's end to block him from hearing the many other things that we discussed on those two days because, if he had heard them, it may have pleased him for a time, he would have stayed longer, and then it would have us taken much longer to discern what he is really like, and the true thoughts and intents of his heart, and so by this mishap in his equipment, we can now watch him judge unrighteously and without understanding, patience, or charity in real time, so we can better improve our discernment to spot hypocrites, and to keep them out of the church. It's my hope that Brian will come to his senses, and come to repentance of his uncharitable attitude towards us, so we can speak together in peace, kindness, and reconciliation towards one another, instead of the feigned "good words and fair speeches" he has used to try and deceive the hearts of who he believes are just simple-minded folks. (It's why he had to start out with a pretentious resume to impress and give himself authority, instead of just speaking plainly and using God's Word to back up his arguments.) Brian believes we are leavened, even though he won't just say it directly in plain speech, and I doubt he even believes we are Christians because, if he did, his first thought should have been to SHOW us a better example, and make suggestions that would be to our benefit, having patience and longsuffering in charity with us, instead of selfishly fleeing because he didn't feel like he had a safe space.
The only thing I have learned from Brian's letter that I am taking to heart, is how sad I am for him that he doesn't have fellowship with other Christians, which is something very important for us, but at this point, I can see why he doesn't have it. He still has an invite to fulfill Matthew 18 with us on August 28th after the Bible study, and if he refuses to show up, then we will have to assume that he has departed from the church on unbiblical terms, and will have no choice but to remove him as a member. If that is the case, then, despite his unrighteous judgments against me and the rest of our church, I pray the Lord Jesus Christ would have as much mercy on him and his family as the Lord God has shown to me and my family, and that he would be richly blessed with all his needs throughout the coming rough months in our country.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
-Matthew 18:15-17
END OF DISCUSSION
BRIAN FROM FLORIDA:
Christopher, I think it might benefit the group for me to share some thoughts with you, as the founder and recognized leader. I hope you will share them with the group before you might share any thoughts with them, so the group can hear this as if from me, and not possibly have preconceptions. I say that because on your forum, I’ve noticed sometimes you’ll share all or part of an email that also includes your thoughts. Since my thoughts relate to the group, it doesn’t seem to be a situation where it’s necessary for me to go to you privately first. And the spirit of this online forum sems to be to share as a group. Part of my feedback does address a few of your comments, but still as part of the group interaction. Still, I’m going to you first, out of respect. I share these thoughts with humility, as iron sharpens iron, hoping that any or all of these points may help make this group more glorifying to our Father, and therefore in part more encouraging to each other. I share this after participating in the online forum for about a week and then with calls this week for the 1st time (much of Monday’s call and part of Thursday’s call, both of which I had a laptop audio issue). I realize Monday’s call was a prayer meeting, and Thursday’s call was simply a discussion. I wanted to at least join a 2nd call, to make sure the 1st call didn’t seem to be an exception. I also share my points as someone who has served in an elder-type of role and has been blessed to be part of small meetings of believers for years, where I seen different styles in various different nations and cultures like in Africa and Latin America. And I have learned some lessons from my own mistakes and things I have seen. And I have always appreciated feedback, so I hope this group does too. At this point, I think God is closing this door for me related to this group, so I am trying to go in peace.
I was waiting for this because you were acting really weird, and your letters were a bit strange. This is why I said I was "cautiously optimistic" (see here) when you first joined the forum because we have seen our share of people doing exactly what you have done so far, and saying the exact same types of things you are about to say in this letter. There were a few initial red flags for me concerning you, but I thought I would just throw all of my concerns into the side of charity and patience (as Christ has taught me), to wait and see all that you had to say, specifically in a group setting. Others in our church had red flags too that we discussed to some extent in our Skype calls before you joined, but I suggested that we show you some charity and patience, and wait for you to have more conversation with us over our Skype meetings, and the church agreed. Just to be clear, you were made a member of our church (i.e. it's already been done), so departing without following the standards Jesus Christ listed out in Matthew 18 (as I quote at the end of this email) will be on you, not on us. It's your decision, but either way, our church isn't made for window shoppers.
I also realize it’s easy for some group members to be defensive, especially when they have a common interest in the group. I would add that this feedback is general consensus from three believers (to include my wife and adult son) who have each been walking with the Lord for years. For the group’s knowledge, I had checked with you out of respect ahead of time, so I knew they were welcome to listen in. I did not influence their reactions. Much of this came before I then shared a few additional thoughts with them. So I really hope that the group will take this to heart, as it comes from both male and female perspectives, and from much different ages.
I can tell you one major inhibitor for everyone to take these things to heart and to take them seriously, and that is your reluctance to share it with them face to face on the calls, out of your own fear and uncharitable judgment that they would not take you seriously and hear you out. Personally, I see that as a back-handed slap, no matter how many "good words" you try to use to smooth it over. If you are not even willing to give these people a chance, the very Christians that you have called "brethren," which is to be a part of a family who cares about you, then I am starting to see a side of you that I don't think is good.
If nothing else, perhaps the Lord is using me for a few days with this group.
As if no one's ever used that justification before.
That being said...And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
-Rom 8:28
So let's see what happens.
I also realize it’s tempting to react immediately, and to have reasons for why everything a group does is the way it is, including even technical challenges. I would respectfully ask the group not to do that. I also realize other obvious things, such as every person and group has unique personalities. So I’m trying to focus on the biblical points. I also realize I share at least one idea this group may already do, that just didn’t happen this week. For example, maybe you always do video, and for some reason that wasn’t shared, there was no video this week.
Anyone is free to do video on Mondays and Thursdays. It just becomes a problem for a lot of people for various reasons, so many of them do not do so very often. If that's one of the reasons you don't want to be a part of our church, and you were not even willing to raise that issue live on the call, then you should be ashamed.
So I tried to be reasonable and logical with some observations and conclusions.
I haven't seen anything like that yet. I'll keep reading. I see a lot of pretense and niceties to try and make yourself sound better, but I'm willing to hear you out. (As would all of our church if you would have had the courage and charity in your heart to give them a chance, and not pre-judge them based on your past experiences.)
Also, none of my motive for sharing this is because I disagree with Christopher on certain bible interpretations. In fact, it’s a bit amazing how similar we see so much of God’s word.
I'm starting to wonder about that. We'll see. I want to see what you have to say first.
It seems very unbiblical and odd that this group does not meet face-to-face on its calls.
Provide the Scripture to back up your complaints.
We know the 1st century church met face-to-face when possible, And it is already quite a challenge or question if a group can really act as a healthy body ‘virtually.’
Well, this church has been around for 13 years, and you've been in it for less than a week, so obviously, you must understand better than we do.
So seeing each other face-to-face is even more crucial. There is a reason Paul wrote about his anticipation of meeting brothers and sisters face-to-face (in addition to communicating in writing), and why Jesus says the eye is the lamp to the body (where we can assess each other and better encourage each other, since body language is so much of verbal communication).
And you're taking Matthew 6:22 out of its context and its metaphorical meaning, which contradicts your point that we have a solid agreement on the Bible. I would explain the verse in more detail, but you didn't make much of an argument in the first place, so I don't want to waste my time with it if you don't have any interest in understanding it. That being said, I certainly hope that you will take your concerns to the Christians in our church who have visual impairments, and let them know about their violations against Scripture.
Even if there was face-to-face, the lack of overall interaction and the frequent long gaps of silence seem very odd.
I think it's odd that someone would say it's odd when he confessed he was having audio issues and couldn't hear much of the conversation anyway.
It certainly doesn’t seem like a healthy family of believers, even knowing that every family has issues.
If no one has anything left to say at the moment, why didn't you jump in and say something? That seems a little hypocritical, don't you think?
One logical conclusion is it appears that at least some members, especially women, may not feel comfortable challenging Christopher and / or the status quo, partly because of Christopher’s style.
Ha ha!
I'll let them know that. I gotta' share this on the forum now. I was just thinking about it while reading this part, and that sealed it for me. This needs to be opened up for the whole church to hear. The ladies of our church have their own separate discussion group, and I look forward to their responses to your letter.As I read through some prior posts, off memory I think it was Ellie (but I know it was at least a woman) who in one thread was defending Christopher in a situation where he was sharing a message from a disgruntled guest or member. And while she defended Christopher in a general way, I thought it was a bit courageous and unusual to see (in this group) that she did admit that he can come across harshly, and she listed a few specific concerns about him. After seeing many of his posts, I agree that he, as the informal leader, can come across often as speaking truth without love. And this sets the tone for the group. His sometimes harsh wording seems simply unnecessary and /or counterproductive.
I speak very directly because I talk with a lot of people. I can't spend a couple of days (as you did) creating a lengthy response to every person who contacts me. I just don't have the time. I know this sounds crazy, but that's why we started up Skype meetings for the church to talk to one another and work those things out. Pretty neat, isn't it?
It is perhaps God’s timing that enabled us to see some other troubling things in such a short period of time in just two calls. For example, on Monday, over a period of at least the last ten minutes of mostly silence, members just started dropping off the call without any closing prayer, goodbyes, etc. We waited until there were only 3 left, and then I figured I should just hang up. And on Thursday, even though we all know the short video that Christopher played was satire, it was very poor judgment for him to share the part where the actor curses God near the end.
Yeah, I didn't like that part at the end either. I shared it for the majority of the video to point out how accurate it was to reality, and sometimes, others in our church share videos of interest, or even documentaries, that have some things we don't like, and we don't approve of. We try to avoid those parts if possible, but we can't avoid everything when analyzing the things of the world. For example, I have shared clips from false preacher Steven Anderson in my teachings that I don't like and don't approve of, but the point is to analyze what is being said from a Biblical perspective. I have had to rebuke others in the church before for sharing things they should not have, and I understand this point very well, but I also don't condemn them and leave because they shared something I didn't like.
As for prayers and goodbyes, I was unaware that every meeting with born again Christians must start and end with prayers. Were there verses of Scripture that commanded that for the church that we need to adjust and adhere to, or is this just coming from your experiences? I gotta' say, for someone who talks about how much we agree on Scripture, you sure do seem to be making a lot of assertions of personal opinion rather than Biblical decree.
That was unnecessary and inappropriate to share, and to at least not give a heads up in advance.
I will agree that I should have said something ahead of time because I had seen it prior to that point, and for that I apologize that you did not get any warning, but (and the church will have to correct me if I'm wrong) I thought I did warn everyone ahead of time that there was some language in this that was not good because they know that I do that all the time.
That should be offensive to all of us.
Yes, and it was offensive to me as well, but it IS the kind of thing that those men say and do in their various corrupt church buildings, which was the message of the satire.
But he also mentioned more than once how this video agreed with everything he has taught for years, which is quite alarming. A key part of the skit involved something very contradictory even to what we see are his political views, which was sarcasm about the pastor and people not wearing masks.
No, I said ALMOST everything. But I'm sure your audio equipment wasn't working very well to hear me say that.
It was remarkably ironic that he and the group seemed to overlook this in the post-video reaction, since in a sense this group is masking their faces as well, and hiding precious faces and smiles that are made in God’s image.
I'm really looking forward to the church seeing your letter, especially since none of us ever wore masks amongst one another, we never stopped meeting together (even locally here at our home), and I warned the church about those things (that they were a scam) as early as Feb of 2020. So if you don't hear anyone commenting about the mask thing, that's because we have had COUNTLESS discussions about it already. Since you keep harping on that your time with us was guided by God, did it ever once occur to you that you are NEW to the church, and have not been part of our discussions that some of us have been talking about for many years before you ever showed up? Is it possible that God is trying to open your eyes to your own arrogance, or is that a thought that cannot be allowed for consideration?
Lastly, on a more minor point, it’s apparent that in a discussion, there can be different political views. But it’s certainly a red flag that Christopher seems to support the ‘Q’ movement so strongly.
"SEEMS to support" is not an argument. That's speculation. I don't support the Q movement, but thanks for asking me a question about it first--that was very charitable of you.
(I know Brian's going to be upset that I keep responding facetiously, but I have a hard time NOT doing that when he keeps making absurd statements, and calling them "reasonable.") I believe the Q drops are legitimate from military personnel who police the NSA, and there are some others in the church who also do (because we've done some research), which is why one of our elders was asking me about it on Thursday, and no one has to believe any of that stuff if they don't want to, but that doesn't mean we take them off the table of discussion just because you have a differing opinion.While he may agree with many of the Q comments, nobody seems to know the source. And the source could very well turn out to be bad. We should be focusing on sources that we know, especially proper versions of the bible and people that we can personally trust or at least verify.
I'm sure our church will enjoy that Geneva back-handed slap.
In open discussion, we open up the church to talk about anything that is on their minds, and it changes from week to week. I wish you had informed me beforehand that, after less than a week with us, we would need to change all our meetings and discussions that we have developed over the past decade to fit with your personal feelings. Just give us a list of everything you want changed, the order in which you want things done, the time frame you expect the changes to occur, and your Scriptural backing for all of it, and we'll review it and get back to you.I’m not here to debate the main position of that movement, but it could also be a very nonproductive and nonbiblical movement designed to keep people waiting on the bench, so to speak. It could keep people always watching (with popcorn symbols like Christopher sometimes posts) to see when enough people supposedly ‘wake up,’ rather than taking more action. In both calls, even the Monday prayer call, we were on quite a bit and we didn’t hear any focus on the bible, prayer, or encouraging each other.
Yikes.
You know, I'm going to let the church respond to that on the forum. I want to leave a few things for them to address. I don't know if you'll listen to them or not, but I think they'll want to respond to that themselves.While there is nothing wrong with having a Thursday discussion that is not necessarily a bible study or worship, it does seem like any group with limited time would at least want to include a heavy dose of God’s word in a discussion.
It depends on the week, but I can see how you think that you have a sound argument based on how many years you have dedicated to be in full attendance with our meetings online.
To again use a 1st century church analogy, we see no indication the persecuted church spent much time debating Roman politics, nor do we have reason to think they did. The danger in getting too political is that it takes our eyes off encouraging each other and glorifying God. Yes, there are going to be many political common ground points among real believers, like not supporting abortion. But what we sense in Christopher’s tone and writings is almost an angry obsession with this topic. One has to question how Christopher, for example, spends so much time almost every day making primarily political posts on a Telegram channel that aren’t necessarily apparently pointing people to Christ, when he could be spending that time in better ways.
I have an angry obsession with Roman politics? Hmm.
I spend most of my work day writing articles and books to teach people the interpretations of Scripture and warn them about false teachers. But obviously, I must be doing the wrong things because Brian's been sitting right next to me viewing everything I do all day, and if only I could watch what he does all day to get a better example, I might be a good Christian. It's a good thing he's here to help me learn how to do everything the right way, and his vast experience in church building leadership is becoming more clear the more he speaks.And at least guests and new members have to question how much work his wife is doing with the farm and income, as we read on the forum, while he may not be often doing productive work, especially since we read he admits that laziness has been a big sin in the past. A logical question is how much time does Christopher, as the informal leader, spend on political posts rather than teachings, writings, and helping with the farm.
I showed this part of your paragraph to Lorraine. All I can say is, she's not happy with you right now. But, what right does she have to be upset with you? I mean, after all, you've obviously spent so much time out here at our home, and know the ins and outs of our day to judge what we do, so I must be a terrible, lazy minister. The evidence is indisputable, thus saith Brian.
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:24
Now I'm starting to realize why you sent me a private letter, and didn't speak up in Skype or on the forum.
I would caution Christopher and anyone in the group to avoid language and tone with specific words that may convey unnecessarily private info and/or not be encouraging or Christ-like. In one post, for example, I saw he mentioned that his wife had been “abusive.” That is a very strong word and a word with a very gray area of meaning to different people. And it raises many questions. There are also different kinds of abuse.
You know that Lorraine has come on to my audio teachings on the feminism topic and testified publicly on these things, right? Hmm. I doubt you knew that. It's a good thing you asked me before making public statements about it.
Perhaps I would caution Brian to do some research and ask some questions before embarrassing himself with accusatory false statements, but, you know, leopards and spots n' all that.For example, while one spouse can be harmful physically, another can be harmful emotionally. Some of the posts that Christopher has shared come across as unnecessarily harmful and blunt. And at least in that one thread, it also can come across as prideful that while his wife was abusive, he was loving. That may have been largely the case. But again, for someone using discernment to connect dots, it’s a reasonable guess that the tone and wording that Christopher has always used with her may not have been as loving as he may think.
It sounds like you've been married to Lorraine longer than I have. I have to step back and give ear to your experiences with her; you seem to have much more than me.
For a separate example, as a few of you saw in one of my posts, I posed some friendly perspectives about the KJV bible and another earlier version (it’s not important which one, so as not to distract),
Folks, he's talking about the Geneva Bible. I hope that clears things up for all of you who are confused as to why he didn't mention what it was. He doesn't know or understand that we discuss Biblical topics all the time, and that our whole church discussed his and Ellie's posts about the Geneva Bible in our Skype calls before he ever joined.
after I read his article on the KJV. Again, some of the wording in that article is concerning.
I know, I agree. I need to rewrite that completely into a full-length book. I think I wrote the original draft of that about a decade ago, so I've got a lot of corrections to make.
In the long article, there was only one paragraph with a reference to a particular earlier version that he argued misused a word. It was certainly not a passage that would mislead someone regarding salvation (such as the Message translation of John 3:16).
Oh, look at that. He finally referenced Scripture. I think it's the only time in his entire letter of "Biblical" rebuke.
And he assumed a bad motive of the writer that may not be accurate. Regardless, it seemed unnecessarily harsh to suggest his reader throw away that version, at least based on only that one paragraph. And it seemed a bit concerning, given that the KJV largely used this translation.
Yeah, back then, I was working another job full time, so it was difficult with my sporadic schedule to write up a full expose on every chapter of every new-age version out there, and make hundreds of pages of comparisons. If only I wasn't so lazy.
Speaking of solutions, I will close with a few basic ideas that I hope the group will discuss.
Ooo! Based on everything we have seen so far, this should be totally reasonable and well researched with no bias or rash judgments.
Or, at least, that's what Brian has told us to expect.Hopefully they are obvious, and they correspond with the above points. 1) I would encourage at least the leader and elders to have at least one video call with any prospective member, or face-to-face if it’s a local person.
You asked me for a private Skype call (via email) before you joined the church, and I said it wasn't necessary because you can say anything on the Skype calls openly with the whole church, but I also told you that I would give you a private Skype call if you thought it was necessary, to which you did not respond to me. So, let me give you a few basic ideas that I hope your family will discuss:
#1 - I would encourage you to listen to what people are saying to you, and speak up if necessary.
In the 1st century church, if a neighbor a mile down the road heard about a group, the group likely wouldn’t just write back and forth a few times and then declare him a member. At least one leader or group member would meet him face-to-face first. And if both parties felt God’s direction, it’s likely the group would then invite that person to at least one group meeting before asking that person to join or giving that person the group’s blessing. 2) Have video calls instead of audio calls. And it’s part of the responsibility of the leader or elders to facilitate everyone’s participation, including those who may like to hardly ever talk and may need encouragement to step out of their comfort zone. Every member of the body needs to function.
#2 - I would encourage you to step out of your comfort zone. That's what veteran Christians (as you claim to be) are already supposed to do. I hope you'll set a better example for others around you in the future.
3) When you have discussions, consider mixing up the topics.
Hey, everyone in our church, we need to take this to heart. I think, after 9 years of having our church online over Skype, we should stop talking about Q every week for the duration of every call.
Maybe you do, but the focus was political in both calls this week and is often about politics in the written threads.
Wow, I didn't realize all I did was just talk about politics. If that is the case, why did you ever start listening to my ministry in the first place? You said it was your wife's suggestion, so maybe she doesn't have as much discernment as you think she does.
But I'm not an expert on another man's wife... I defer to you on that.Oh, and that brings me to #3 - I would encourage you (and your wife and son) to join the call tomorrow for open discussion after the Bible study, so you can hear everyone's responses to your abundant comments.
4) Consider spending much less time on politics. And be careful not to proudly assume that your views represent God’s, when it comes to politics with nuance or gray areas.
Are you talking to the church, or me? I'm getting confused about that at this point. I would love to have you quote me somewhere claiming that I have said that my views represent God when it comes to politics (and I'm unsure why you would even say that), which brings me to...
#4 - I would encourage you to QUOTE people when accusing them of things, instead of paraphrasing their words anyway you wish. That's how corrupt new-age bible versions came into existence.
5) Consider how to make your calls much more welcoming and joyful. For example, each person could share a praise and / or verse from that day. Each person, including new members, could give a periodic short intro or personal update. I realize the group may disagree with much of what I share. It’s not fun for me, but I hope it was worth the time. And I thank Christopher for helping me unpack more Truth, and for the group having invited me to participate. In Truth, Brian
Well, considering that this letter is basically your introduction letter to the church after joining, I would say...
#5 - I would encourage you to be much more welcoming, joyful, charitable, patient, and longsuffering.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
-Gal 5:22-23
I have left A LOT of things out of this response, and that is because of Brian's arrogance. I do not need to explain to him the details of what we say and do when he's not around to provide evidence to him because the Lord God sees what we do, and He knows the truth, which is all that matters. Brian has judged unjustly and in arrogance, and so he's not looking for evidence because he only cares about his feelings and opinions. To say the least, it was appalling that Brian would act this way, professing his desire for face-to-face interaction, and then running away at the first sign of controversy. It's completely hypocritical, but I do have to agree on one point that Brian said:
"the Lord is using me for a few days with this group"
I believe that God had audio issues happen on Brian's end to block him from hearing the many other things that we discussed on those two days because, if he had heard them, it may have pleased him for a time, he would have stayed longer, and then it would have us taken much longer to discern what he is really like, and the true thoughts and intents of his heart, and so by this mishap in his equipment, we can now watch him judge unrighteously and without understanding, patience, or charity in real time, so we can better improve our discernment to spot hypocrites, and to keep them out of the church. It's my hope that Brian will come to his senses, and come to repentance of his uncharitable attitude towards us, so we can speak together in peace, kindness, and reconciliation towards one another, instead of the feigned "good words and fair speeches" he has used to try and deceive the hearts of who he believes are just simple-minded folks. (It's why he had to start out with a pretentious resume to impress and give himself authority, instead of just speaking plainly and using God's Word to back up his arguments.) Brian believes we are leavened, even though he won't just say it directly in plain speech, and I doubt he even believes we are Christians because, if he did, his first thought should have been to SHOW us a better example, and make suggestions that would be to our benefit, having patience and longsuffering in charity with us, instead of selfishly fleeing because he didn't feel like he had a safe space.
The only thing I have learned from Brian's letter that I am taking to heart, is how sad I am for him that he doesn't have fellowship with other Christians, which is something very important for us, but at this point, I can see why he doesn't have it. He still has an invite to fulfill Matthew 18 with us on August 28th after the Bible study, and if he refuses to show up, then we will have to assume that he has departed from the church on unbiblical terms, and will have no choice but to remove him as a member. If that is the case, then, despite his unrighteous judgments against me and the rest of our church, I pray the Lord Jesus Christ would have as much mercy on him and his family as the Lord God has shown to me and my family, and that he would be richly blessed with all his needs throughout the coming rough months in our country.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
-Matthew 18:15-17
END OF DISCUSSION
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