ZACK FROM RALEIGH, NC (i.e. FORMER MEMBER OF OUR FORUM WHO DELETED HIS ACCOUNT HERE BEFORE WRITING THIS LETTER)
I was listening to the Part1 : Idolatry and wanted to comment on how I really identified with the comment regarding the Hebrews - I had a hard time understanding how many could be so blind to their own behavior, and found it so easy to preach on the unfaithfulness of the Jews in the old testament week after week.
I don't know what comment about the Hebrews you're referring to.
Anyways, I had thought about it recently prior to listening to PART 1 ^^ and decided to leave the forum. I do not prefer email or texting, because of the lack of context that gets lost (no body language, tone, etc). This kind of communication is very sterile and lacking to me in general. I don't text that much for example.
Okay.
On a sidenote I must ask:
Were you referring to me at the 1 hour and 15 minute mark on PART 1 of Idolatry (audio teaching from the site) regarding respecting persons?
I don't know; I don't remember what example you're talking about.
Why would you make those comments in the recording and not even answer my post based on the context of what said ? I even tried to amend the situation in seeing my possible wrong ? I have seen you reply to posts very quickly - yet this one was there for quite a while with no answer from you.
Again, I don't know what you're talking about.
I was just now considering what you said about leaving the forum, so that's leaves me wondering... why does it matter now if I did or didn't respond to something if you've already decided to depart?
Now that I'm sitting here thinking about it for a moment, I'm now even more confused because our church gets together every week on Skype to talk together, and then our mid-week Bible studies we use webcams for those of us who have them, so that "
body language" and "
tone" are all included, and we've offered for anyone who comes on the forum to talk with us about doctrine to eventually join our church over Skype if they wanted, which you also had access to do (i.e. to request to join our church), but as far as I know (and perhaps I missed it), you never expressed any desire for that. I mean, I'll double check... I don't know what you're username is so I'm trying to find your account...
...
...
Okay, it took me a few minutes, but I discovered that you deleted your account. I appreciate you being forthcoming, meaning that you are departing if you're not going to be talking with us, but now, I can't really tell what conversations you were part of, how much you were talking, what subjects you were talking about; I can't see any of that now because it would take me too long to search through thousands of posts, so there's not much I can do to help you on that point. But the same offer has been open to everyone for quite a few years now:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=79.0Zack, I can only offer so many options from my limited amount of resources; I've done everything I know how to do to satisfy everyone's concerns. If you have a better way to accomplish what we're trying to do, I hope that the Lord God blesses you prosperously as you do the work, but for now, I don't know what else to do for you personally, and in relation to your last questions, I don't know what example you're talking about.
NEXT LETTER
I made effort to type "Zack" (from the forum) in the name - but your form validation would not allow, in the case you thought I was expecting you to magically remember....
Okay. That reads like a very a poor attempt to hide hostility. That indirect approach is murmuring, which is what I was referring to in the last teaching I did on Sunday--God hates that kinda' stuff, so just say what you want to say openly and clearly, and get it all off your chest.
Some simple questions - that I'm not sure require an immediate answer.
Okay.
Regarding the forum, you made it clear the forum was needed before consideration rather than a simple skype call - how is this any different than some random church requiring hoops to jump through for membership?
Could you be more specific? It's fairly clear by now that you're angry at me for something, and you are accusing me of hypocrisy on some things, but you're not being open, direct, and specific. Since you don't want to be open, direct, and specific, and because I'm losing patience waiting for you to be direct, let me help you out a bit:
Even though I've mostly stated that the average church building just invites in whoever they want, no matter what, which is contrary to what you just said; I have stated in past teachings that
SOME church buildings want you to "
jump through hoops," and by that, I mean they want you to do a bunch of political process junk, like signing forms and agreements, having to watch training videos, and whole bunch of other nonsense. Let me be clear: If you want to compare that to the church wanting to read someone's good conversation in Christ before inviting them into study together, and you're going to call that "
jumping through hoops," then it's good you're departing because I don't think our forum's the right place for you. If you have a problem with me, then quote me and back up your argument with Scripture and I'll address it, but enough is enough. Don't misunderstand; I could sense your hostility in your last letter, but I was trying to be patient--now I would like you to be direct so we can get to the heart of the matter.
Where did I say I would not be talking with anyone ? - Am I not able to talk outside of some random forum ?
Where did I say that you would not be talking with anyone? I just re-read the letter I sent you to double check, and I didn't say any such thing as far as I saw. Why are you accusing me of something I didn't say?
Regarding- the Scott Johnson thread -- you really expect me to believe that you don't know what I'm referring to, yet can remember and state: 'rebuked quickly' that person 'from the forum' in your teaching around the 1 hour and 15 min mark of Idolatry part 1 ?
You didn't say anything about a Scott Johnson thread in your last letter, and that would be important information. Also, I suppose I could have gone and looked up an 1:15:00 mark in the teaching (for some reason, I didn't even think about that because I'm kinda' dumb sometimes--even though you also didn't clarify if you were talking about the audio download or the youtube video), but I wanted you to make the effort and actually quote me, mostly so that way, I didn't have to guess at what you were talking about. (I've had to guess with many people in the past, and sometimes, it turns out that we have to go through 2 or 3 email exchanges to figure out exactly what they're talking about; case in point.)
If you were trying to be loving to me as a Christian, and you actually cared about my soul and my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, and you found some inconsistency, then why is it you're unwilling to make any effort to be thorough in your writing for my sake? Like quoting me, telling me exactly what I did wrong, and providing Scripture, just to give a few examples. It's not asking much; perhaps just a tiny fraction of the effort I make to bring you the teachings and doctrine that I've done over the years--do you believe that's too much to ask, or that is beyond the scope of Christ's charity?
Why does it seem that you are so defensive, generally speaking, even when your own church members ask questions ?
Do you have an example or are you just talking about your feelings? If I am defensive at any point, it's because of offensive letters like this; if it weren't for such people attacking me every week (and for no clearly and directly stated reason, like in your letters), I could let my guard down, but the Bible says we are supposed to be vigilant:
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
-1Pe 5:8vigilant: watchful; circumspect; attentive to discover and avoid danger, or to provide for safetyThis is exactly what those servants in authority over the church are instructed to do, and to watch out for everyone else in the church as well:
Take heed [caution, care, watching out for danger] therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Acts 20:28-31If someone came along on the forum and started vaguely accusing you, as you have done to me, I would rebuke them too; at that point, would you still accuse me of being a "defensive" person for standing up for you? Again, if you don't like the defensive nature of protecting the church from harm, and if you find my letter to be crafted by a man who is not acting in accordance with Scripture, then state it clearly; don't beat around the bush.
Are you more concerned with being 'right' or being perceived as 'right'-- that you miss the point completely in edifying the brethren in Spirit at times?
Do you have an example or are you just talking about your feelings? I find it really amazing that you just complained about not liking "
text" because it doesn't have "
body language" and "
tone," in which you "
lose context" and it becomes "
sterile," but reject joining us in the church over Skype so you could see the whole matter in context, and then turn around and accuse me of false pretense (e.g. "
being perceived as 'right'"), which is someone who would know he is wrong, but tries to give a false pretense to the public, or rather, a lie about his outward appearance, or in simple terms, you're accusing me of being a fake or fraud without actually saying it, which is murmuring, and again, I don't appreciate that, and neither does the Lord God.
Tell ya what: I'll give you an opportunity, since you have implied (instead of stating openly and directly) that I am in spiritual error on a number of Scriptural matters, and obviously you believe you're standing on a firm foundation of Scripture or you would not have accused me in the first place, then let's schedule a time and get the church on Skype, and then you can bring all your complaints and/or rebukes to them and we'll all sit down and listen to them. They're a very charitable and friendly bunch of believers, so you would have no reason to be nervous around them. If you're nervous about me responding, I'll even be willing to keep my microphone muted the whole time and not talk the entire conversation, and you can just address everyone else in the church, and then they can all rebuke me in unison with you if you are correct in your accusations. Certainly, that would be to the edification of the church, would you agree? And then you could show us a proper example of an edifying and charitable Christian in your rebuke and correction of me, which would also benefit the church as a whole, would you agree? Please let me know with a time/date convenient for you and I'll work to get that arranged as soon as possible.
Why do you think insulting/mocking through demotivation is fruitful or the right tactic in making a point or to bring those lost to the truth?
It depends on what you mean. Would you like to give an example and demonstrate the error? If so, perhaps you'd be willing to come onto Skype with other members of our church (who are also members on the forum) to discuss it with us in the format which you prefer, and clearly share your thoughts, doctrine, and rebuke?
Is it normal not to welcome people to the forum or thank them for donations ?
I have welcomed some people to the forum, which you would see if you went back to previous introductions, but it's mostly when they write a full and comprehensive introduction, or when they write something that I can relate to. You'll find that many of the early introductions were from people who were already on the forum before we had to reset it, or they are in our church, and we talk with them over Skype twice a week, so I don't need to say "hi" or "welcome." Other times it's because I'm busy working on something else--it just depends.
To show that your are mistaken, here are a few examples of my responding to introduction posts:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=139.0http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=145.0http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=147.0http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=165.0http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=189.0Again, those are just a few examples. Is there a particular complaint you have that you would like to address to our church over Skype? There are many people who simply wrote a few vague sentences in their introductions, and I typically don't respond because I don't have anything to say. If I don't have anything to say, I don't say anything; if you could show me where that is an unbiblical approach, then by all means, please come to Skype with the church and join them in rebuking me as a whole.
Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
-Ecc 5:2I do not require that anyone thank me for writing books and articles, and producing audio and video teachings; I do those things for the Lord Jesus Christ and His church, which is my job as His servant to do. If you donated something to us and expected a "thank you" for it, please let us know, and Lorraine and I will return your money to you because you did not give it in a heart of charity in the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, you gave it out of selfish motivation, which is neither love nor charity--we don't do this for the money, so we would like to make sure to return your money to you so there are no hard feelings.
Is there difference between suffering for Christ sake and generally being disliked due to our spirit or general demeanor at times ?
Certainly. Would you like to bring up a specific example, or are you just talking about your feelings? I can't tell yet if you're serious and genuine in your heart, or you're just wasting my time with a "many questions" fallacy, because I do have a number of people who write me just to waste my time. If you're serious and genuine, then please come to Skype with us, we'll make time for you and listen to everything you have to say, and I think it would be a productive conversation, but if you're just wasting my time, please be open and direct so I can get back to work; I appreciate it, thanks, and have a great day.
NEXT LETTER
Where did I accuse of you of spiritual error ? I simply asked some questions to get you to ponder some things.
Look at the Scott Johnson thread -- it pretty sums it up your mentality - who was humble enough to be corrected and amend the situation only to be ignored and then referenced in a teaching - to which you continue to deny? Fine
I have no ill will against you or your church -- some of your teachings have helped me immensely. Even this situation has helped me in seeing the error in looking to mere men...-- but please consider:
1) Dropping the pseudo-intellectualism academic vibe/ debate every single detail to death mentality.
2) Not mocking those who might be lost with de motivational posters to prove your point
3) That not every single person is out to get you and that your defensive mentality is very evident even if you don't see it. The truth should stand on its own without that baggage.
4) The spirit of delivery and the way you treat people matters - I'm not the only one to point this out- clearly. (ie: who honestly laughs at someone being killed by a crocodile ?). The truth in the teaching mixed with fleshly foolishness and immaturity is holding you back and potentially off-putting to those who might benefit from your teachings/ministry.
My feelings don't matter - but getting you to see outside perspective of the CLE bubble does.
I am definitely open to further contact and chatting in the future (because of your doctrine). At the same time I don't think much is getting through to you at this current time. I have acted on my conviction.
Take care man !
I tried my best to highlight the important part of my last letter, in bold print with yellow highlighter; did you not bother to read my letter? If you didn't take the time to read it (as in, perhaps you only read part of it), let me know you're not reading what I'm writing, and I'll stop wasting my time because you're rejecting communication. Again,
IF that's the case, just say so. However, if you did read the entirety of my last letter, why did you not respond to the request? In case you missed it, I'll resend it to you and wait for your response:
Tell ya what: I'll give you an opportunity, since you have implied (instead of stating openly and directly) that I am in spiritual error on a number of Scriptural matters, and obviously you believe you're standing on a firm foundation of Scripture or you would not have accused me in the first place, then let's schedule a time and get the church on Skype, and then you can bring all your complaints and/or rebukes to them and we'll all sit down and listen to them. They're a very charitable and friendly bunch of believers, so you would have no reason to be nervous around them. If you're nervous about me responding, I'll even be willing to keep my microphone muted the whole time and not talk the entire conversation, and you can just address everyone else in the church, and then they can all rebuke me in unison with you if you are correct in your accusations. Certainly, that would be to the edification of the church, would you agree? And then you could show us a proper example of an edifying and charitable Christian in your rebuke and correction of me, which would also benefit the church as a whole, would you agree? Please let me know with a time/date convenient for you and I'll work to get that arranged as soon as possible. You then said:
I am definitely open to further contact and chatting in the future (because of your doctrine). At the same time I don't think much is getting through to you at this current time. I have acted on my conviction.That's a vague response. Either you agree or disagree; either you're willing to "
edify the brethren in Spirit" as you instructed me the previous letter and communicate with us as you just said you were open to do, or you're not willing to do those things. I'm not asking for a "
pseudo-intellectualism academic vibe/debate," I just want a "yes" or a "no." May I return your words to you and ask if that's "
getting through to you at this current time?" I'm requesting a direct answer from you so that I can either act on it, or move on. If you're willing to be direct, I appreciate it, thank you.
ONE WEEK LATER, ZACK REFUSED TO RESPOND TO MY REQUEST, SO I RESPONDED AGAIN
Alright then, since you're going to remain silent and ignore the opportunity to communicate the way you claimed you wanted to communicate (which was just a convenient excuse for you), then I am confident to point out that you are a false accuser (i.e. a liar), a coward, and a hypocrite, and you have given us no evidence of repentance in your heart for your wickedness. We do not tolerate that in the church of Christ, and I'm glad you're departing on your own in peace. Everything below is for the sake of your soul; if you don't want to read it, then delete it. It's up to you.
1) Dropping the pseudo-intellectualism academic vibe/ debate every single detail to death mentality. The Holy Spirit of God doesn't operate according to your personal feelings. The Bible has over 23,000 verses because details are important. Your not-liking that fact and throwing a childish tantrum because you got corrected is not the proper response according to the philosophy of Christ.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
-1Co 14:20I go into great detail for Christ's sake and for your sake, but you mock it because of the iniquity in your heart.
2) Not mocking those who might be lost with de motivational posters to prove your pointWould you like ask me about the demotivational posters? Believe it or not, there are reasons for what I do if you'd just ask about it instead of scoffing. The demotivational posters are designed as quick advertisements for social media to try to gain the attention of Christians to come to the website to learn the doctrines, and hopefully, for any other unbelievers who might read/hear the truth and that they could be saved. (i.e. Most people on the internet, like you Zack, don't like reading; they end up looking at pictures, and so if any one of those pictures can strike up someone's curiosity, that they might learn the truth of Christ's doctrine, then I'll use that--and many people have found our site and read our teachings because of those images.) If there is any demotivational poster that has any incorrect information on it, by all means, don't hide like a coward, hiding behind your computer screen making murmuring, vague accusations; gird up your loins, young man, and come forward in front of the church on Skype and point it out. Obviously, now that enough time has passed to see the truth, you're going to hide and be unwilling to do so, therefore you're nothing more than a scorner, and our church would have removed you altogether if you hadn't chosen to depart on your own. Believe me when I tell you that there are some in our church with sharper discernment than I have, and they would have seen through you quickly.
Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
-Pro 22:10Perhaps you should open up the Bible sometime on your own and read what Elijah did, who was God's beloved prophet, and condemn him for "mocking" the prophets of Baal to prove his point.
1 Kings 18:20-40 (Specifically see v27)3) That not every single person is out to get you and that your defensive mentality is very evident even if you don't see it. The truth should stand on its own without that baggage. Then why don't you stop being so defensive and come speak with our church on Skype, in the manner of communication that you said you preferred? The reason is because hypocrites say one thing and do another. Stop acting like everyone's out to get you Zack. For someone who has accused me of wanting to be outwardly seen as "right," you sure do seem to have a great desire to outwardly appear to be right with your slap-n-run method of communication.
4) The spirit of delivery and the way you treat people matters - I'm not the only one to point this out- clearly. (ie: who honestly laughs at someone being killed by a crocodile ?). The truth in the teaching mixed with fleshly foolishness and immaturity is holding you back and potentially off-putting to those who might benefit from your teachings/ministry. Many of us Christians laughed at that man (i.e. that false preacher) eaten by a crocodile in his own foolishness; a man who mocked God in his pride, in which he vainly imagined himself being worshiped as some sort of miracle worker. He was judged and condemned by God; those crocs were no accident. Just as many people think they will cast God away and cast away His elect, God laughs at them for their foolish and pathetic plans:
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
-Psa 2:1-4derision (n): act of laughing at in contemptWill you scoff at God for his laughing at them in the same way you have scoffed at me? Zack, what's really offensive to you is the fact that you got corrected on our forum, in front of everyone, you
HATE correction, and because of that, you now hate me as well.
Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
-Pro 9:8I get these types of cowardly, lying, falsely accusing, railing emails on a weekly basis. The real problem is that it grieves you to be corrected because you forsake the way of God.
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
-Pro 15:10These series of letters you sent have given me evidence that you have no repentance in your heart at all, and that you still, to this day, live in your sin, justifying it to yourself. That sound about right? That's what the Bible says; that's why you hide like a coward, and you won't come forward face to face with me and with our church, as you were warmly and kindly invited to do, because you want to skulk and mock in the darkness and hate the light, because you don't want your wicked deeds to be reproved.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-John 3:19-21Despite all the wicked things you've said, and despite all the hatred you have in your heart, we are still here for you if one day, the Lord God gives you a heart of repentance. I tried to be patient with you, but now I see your heart more clearly because of your words.
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18I'm rebuking you straightforward, in hopes that you would know the fear of God.
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
-Jude 1:23I would hope the Lord God would show you mercy, as He's shown my wife and I mercy, and that you and your family would have all your needs taken care of throughout the coming week.
NOTE: Notice that when I would show him evidence and demonstrate to him that what he was accusing me of was false, he would not acknowledge it in any way. That is just someone who has closed their ears and eyes, and though I would not say that everyone like that is not saved; certainly there are those of us who have gone through rebellious phases, to which I can understand that very intimately, but that is not the demeanor we are taught to have with one another in Christ, which indicates (or gives us evidence) that he has never come to repentance, which is also why he didn't get along with us very well on the forum.
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