CLE Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jackie on August 09, 2019, 12:59:01 PM
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There has been something that has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I know that repentance in terms of salvation means grief and godly sorrow. I know that salvation does not actually happen without that grief and godly sorrow. I believe we see what that looks like in Acts 16 when the jailer falls on his knees and asks what can he do to be saved.
I also know that Christians still sin after being saved. And we are supposed to repent of those sins that we do. I believe a lack of repentance may be an indication of someone being a false convert.
Does the repentance that Christians experience when they sin need to look like falling on your face in tears? Even for relatively minor sins?
My concern is that if this is true, I may not be of Christ. My repentance does not always look like that. Often it is just feeling the pinprick of conviction in my heart and recognizing what I had done was wrong. And that perhaps I need to stop. And then I just stop that act and move on with my life.
I also find myself sinning daily, some days more than others. I also do not always feel sorry for those sins in the moment, and some of the individual sins I may never feel sorry for. Though I do get to points where I just look at myself and am disgusted with how I behave when I confess Jesus is my Lord. Is it possible to go 24 hours without sinning? I know Christians sin sometimes, but if someone is committing at least one sin a day, perhaps more than that, is that an indication of a false convert?
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I know Christians sin sometimes, but if someone is committing at least one sin a day, perhaps more than that, is that an indication of a false convert?
If it is, then we're all false converts. The only way you could go 24 hours with NO sin whatsoever is if you're unconscious. When you think of all the ways it's possible to sin, including what you THINK, there's no way any one of us could ever live up to God's expectations, even for one day. That's why we need His mercy through the blood of Jesus Christ.
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Jeanne, thanks for the encouraging words. I think I get used to seeing
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Oops forgot about the foreign symbols thing. Anyways I am so used to seeing so called perfect people that I forget there really is no such thing.
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I have a teaching along those lines; at least, I think it is:
Do Christians Sin? (https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/sin.php)
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I remember while back I try to go 24 hours without sinning.I did not get to far into it tell I sinned. It is probably why jesus told us we can battle forces of darkness but sin flee from. I have learned that to flee from sin and follow christ will cost you everything. Staying away from sin and not to sin seems to be one of the hardest thing I have ever done.
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I have a teaching along those lines; at least, I think it is:
Do Christians Sin? (https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/sin.php)
Thanks, Chris. I am reviewing your teaching on this as I write this.
I remember while back I try to go 24 hours without sinning.I did not get to far into it tell I sinned. It is probably why jesus told us we can battle forces of darkness but sin flee from. I have learned that to flee from sin and follow christ will cost you everything. Staying away from sin and not to sin seems to be one of the hardest thing I have ever done.
This is true. Fleeing from sin will come at heavy costs. It is so, so hard. It has already come at some cost to me, but I worry if I am not doing enough (to fight sin and to pursue righteousness), since I've still got it pretty good all things considered. I don't know that I've been persecuted for my faith in any way, which is rather convicting.
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This is true. Fleeing from sin will come at heavy costs. It is so, so hard. It has already come at some cost to me, but I worry if I am not doing enough (to fight sin and to pursue righteousness), since I've still got it pretty good all things considered. I don't know that I've been persecuted for my faith in any way, which is rather convicting.
That is so true, isn't it? The cost is so high, but then again, so worth it!
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Jackie, thank you for asking this question. It's such a great question.
It's been awhile since I read Chris' article on "Do Christians Sin" and now I want to go back to read it again. So glad you asked this question, because lately, I've been messing up a lot... and I start asking the same questions.
When I mess up, it's usually I haven't been in His Word. So i run back to Him; it is armor He has given us, in this fallen world. And I truly need to be in His Word, on a daily basis.
But we haven't answered Jackie's question:Does the repentance that Christians experience when they sin need to look like falling on your face in tears? Even for relatively minor sins?
My concern is that if this is true, I may not be of Christ. My repentance does not always look like that. Often it is just feeling the pinprick of conviction in my heart and recognizing what I had done was wrong.
Although, the answer might be in Chris' article. Got to go read.
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It could be out of date at this point, so use discernment. I have a lot of things I need to go back and update.
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When I mess up, it's usually I haven't been in His Word. S i run back to Him; it is armor He has given us, in this fallen world. And I truly need to be in His Word, on a daily basis.
to clarify,
when I say "His Word"... I am talking about "God's Word", the Bible.
that's what i get for posting when it's too early in the morning... :-)
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Jackie, thank you for asking this question. It's such a great question.
It's been awhile since I read Chris' article on "Do Christians Sin" and now I want to go back to read it again. So glad you asked this question, because lately, I've been messing up a lot... and I start asking the same questions.
When I mess up, it's usually I haven't been in His Word. So i run back to Him; it is armor He has given us, in this fallen world. And I truly need to be in His Word, on a daily basis.
Although, the answer might be in Chris' article. Got to go read.
I agree that I tend to mess up more when I've not been in His Word (and I knew you meant the Bible when you said that). I listened to Chris' teaching on that article again (didn't get a chance to reread the article yet). I'm still not 100% sure my question on what repentance as a Christian should look like was answered totally.
It could be out of date at this point, so use discernment. I have a lot of things I need to go back and update.
I always try to use discernment when I'm confronted with information related to Bible teachings. I learned last year to not take a man at his word. Wish I had learned that sooner.
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Well Jackie, if you were to be falling on your knees in tears, that would be a huge indication that youve come to repentance. But maybe that could only be a worldly sorrow, instead of a Godly sorrow. Are you doing it because you know you're a sinner and its bringing you major grief? or because you're thinking of the feelings of another person? I don't think for every sin you need to be hysterical, but there will definitely come a time where God does totally humble you and you realize you're a total piece of crap who deserves absolutely nothing that you have or have been given that God has allowed you to have, and that just might make you cry hysterically.
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I think the falling on your knees in tears of grief and repentance is more indicative of the initial repentance that leads to salvation. Once you are already saved, you know when you've done wrong (a lot of the time) and that doesn't necessarily require those tears of grief and sorrow again. It's often enough to acknowledge that you messed up, confess it to God, try to right it if possible, and move on.
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I'm with Zach. He's right; it's not every single thing you've done wrong, but God does bring you back around to tears of repentance. I understand exactly what he's talking about.
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Well Jackie, if you were to be falling on your knees in tears, that would be a huge indication that youve come to repentance. But maybe that could only be a worldly sorrow, instead of a Godly sorrow. Are you doing it because you know you're a sinner and its bringing you major grief? or because you're thinking of the feelings of another person? I don't think for every sin you need to be hysterical, but there will definitely come a time where God does totally humble you and you realize you're a total piece of crap who deserves absolutely nothing that you have or have been given that God has allowed you to have, and that just might make you cry hysterically.
Thank you for your input, Zach. Sorry I've taken some time to reply. Been busy with life haha. I definitely can recall times where I've felt grief and sorrow because I'm a dirty worthless worm in the presence of a holy God. I hate that I hurt Him and anger Him when I sin. But it's good to know that perhaps I don't need to be hysterical after every sin I commit. I mean, I'm going to be honest and say I already find it hard enough to feel shame when I do "little sins" (mostly the socially acceptable ones, like little white lies), let alone enough to be in total hysterics every time.
I think the falling on your knees in tears of grief and repentance is more indicative of the initial repentance that leads to salvation. Once you are already saved, you know when you've done wrong (a lot of the time) and that doesn't necessarily require those tears of grief and sorrow again. It's often enough to acknowledge that you messed up, confess it to God, try to right it if possible, and move on.
Thank you for your comment, Jeanne. My problem sometimes can be not knowing when I've done wrong, you know? But I think that comes from my lack of studying God's Word. Also I think sometimes it may be possible that someone can feel feelings of shame when they in fact have not done something wrong.
I'm with Zach. He's right; it's not every single thing you've done wrong, but God does bring you back around to tears of repentance. I understand exactly what he's talking about.
I do notice a trend for me. I'll be living life like normal, and then one day out of the blue, I'll just be more aware of my sin. I get anxious in my spirit and want to seek out the Word to find out what it says about whatever issue I am concerned about. It usually is a sin issue that triggers the anxiety and then I just feel lots of shame and repentance.
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This has mostly to do with food, but the Bible says that if you think something is unclean, then to you, it is and it would be wrong for you to eat/do it.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
See also http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/bookromans03.php
On the other hand, people like liberals and SJWs LOVE trying to shame people for things they not only have NOT done wrong but even over things they have no control over (like the colour of their skin)! So yes, that is false shame and guilt.
But if you ask God to show you your sin, He will.
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This has mostly to do with food, but the Bible says that if you think something is unclean, then to you, it is and it would be wrong for you to eat/do it.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
See also http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/bookromans03.php
On the other hand, people like liberals and SJWs LOVE trying to shame people for things they not only have NOT done wrong but even over things they have no control over (like the colour of their skin)! So yes, that is false shame and guilt.
But if you ask God to show you your sin, He will.
I agree that there are some fanatics of various political and philosophical groups (it's more than just liberals and SJWs, let's be honest) that like to shame people for things they have not done wrong. Christians (I'm including actual converts and false ones together in this case) tend to do that the most.
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If they were actually born again Christians they would hopefully judge righteously and that shame would hopefully come from conviction. Ive never seen any actual converts here shaming anyone that I can think of, just righteous judgment and rebuke. Maybe Im misunderstanding what youre saying Jackie.
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I was only using liberals/SJWs as an example, so yes, I agree that there are many others who would try to do the same thing. Look at how 'pastors' try to shame people into tithing by telling them they're 'robbing from God' if they don't! Almost everyone here has horror stories about the things that go on in the church buildings they've been in and how they've been told how wrong they are for trying to point out the truth of God's Word. Simply asking questions is extremely frowned upon in many of these places.
I don't know that true born again Christians would try to shame others for things they have not done wrong, though. If they have or do, they are in error. We are told to 'judge righteous judgement' (John 7:24). Matthew 18 also tells us how we should deal with other Christians who sin:
Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
If someone I knew to be born again came to me and told me I was doing something wrong, I would take it very seriously and do some examining of myself and the Scriptures. I wouldn't just assume they were trying to shame me for something I was not guilty of. Assuming my own innocence in such a manner would make me guilty of pride in addition to whatever else was going on. You have no idea how many people have left this forum because they were rebuked for sin and/or false doctrine and assumed that they were right and we were wrong. Raymond was just the most recent example of that, but there have been many, many others. One lady, who seemed to be a new Christian, wasn't here for very long before she got offended when someone else was rebuked for wrongdoing and left because we 'weren't loving and forgiving'.
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I already find it hard enough to feel shame when I do "little sins" (mostly the socially acceptable ones, like little white lies), let alone enough to be in total hysterics every time.
I'm not being judgemental but it would be well worth never feeling OK with "little white lies" because they really aren't that little and are the sorts of things that do need to be got rid of out of our lives. When tempted to do this, stop and take the time to think and decide that you will only ever answer or say what is truly honest. I see it as being very important that a person stops and examines themselves in these situations.
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If they were actually born again Christians they would hopefully judge righteously and that shame would hopefully come from conviction. Ive never seen any actual converts here shaming anyone that I can think of, just righteous judgment and rebuke. Maybe Im misunderstanding what youre saying Jackie.
Hi Zach, I wasn't necessarily talking about people here on this forum. Just in general. No Christian is immune from misinterpreting Scripture and preaching on the misinterpretations. Also some Christians preach tradition as if it was written as a Biblical commandment. Tithing is a good example, like Jeanne said. Yes, I believe that there are many false converts that preach about tithing to gain money. I believe there are genuine Christians that preach stuff like this in error or ignorance or whatever reason that they're not directly at fault for. That's just an example.
If someone I knew to be born again came to me and told me I was doing something wrong, I would take it very seriously and do some examining of myself and the Scriptures. I wouldn't just assume they were trying to shame me for something I was not guilty of. Assuming my own innocence in such a manner would make me guilty of pride in addition to whatever else was going on. You have no idea how many people have left this forum because they were rebuked for sin or false doctrine and assumed that they were right and we were wrong. Raymond was just the most recent example of that, but there have been many, many others. One lady, who seemed to be a new Christian, wasn't here for very long before she got offended when someone else was rebuked for wrongdoing and left because we 'weren't loving and forgiving'.
I do try to not react with annoyance or anger or any other bad emotion. Admittedly, I'm not good at this, and I often let my pride get the best of me, especially when I've not been reading my Bible daily. I think sometimes though what can happen with believers is we have no idea how to properly rebuke someone. We forget about Matthew 18, and many times we lack wisdom on how to rebuke someone (whether sharply or not). I think we often let our emotions get the best of us, which may or may not be the best way to rebuke somebody. I don't know enough about biblical rebuke myself.
I know lots of people have left this forum because they didn't like what you guys said to them. That probably comes from a few things like 1. not being used to rebuking or having no understanding of it, 2. having little or no understanding of what love or forgiveness are in the Bible, or 3. They're a false convert anyway. I'm hesitant to say that someone who hates being rebuked is always a false convert. I don't think anyone's flesh particularly loves being rebuked. I'm welcomed to being corrected though.
I already find it hard enough to feel shame when I do "little sins" (mostly the socially acceptable ones, like little white lies), let alone enough to be in total hysterics every time.
I'm not being judgemental but it would be well worth never feeling OK with "little white lies" because they really aren't that little and are the sorts of things that do need to be got rid of out of our lives. When tempted to do this, stop and take the time to think and decide that you will only ever answer or say what is truly honest. I see it as being very important that a person stops and examines themselves in these situations.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I don't feel ever shame for telling little white lies. I'm just being honest in saying sometimes, I don't always feel shame over individual sins that are more socially acceptable. Sometimes I don't even realize I've committed them. I'm also not attempting to justify any particular sin. My point was that I don't always feel even the littlest bit of shame, let alone enough to go into hysterics (with sins like that). That's all.
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Kevin is right, Jackie. See the CLE article, God Does Not Justify Lies:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/lies.php
Also note that GOD is the One who gives repentance; you can't work up shame on your own. It's only by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and if He's not convicting you, then you need to pray about that because you SHOULD feel convicted over something the Bible clearly states.
If there's something you REALLY don't want to tell the truth about (such as to someone you don't feel you can trust with the truth), it's better to either not answer at all, evade the question, or change the subject. (If you watch TV at all [and I don't recommend that you do] you'll see politicians NOT answer questions all the time.)
Now, I'm not talking about doing this over major issues, mind you, but something like a friend asking you how you like her new dress/hat/nail polish. If you really think what she's wearing looks awful, you don't have to say it like that; you could just say you like her other one better or something like that.
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Kevin is right, Jackie. See the CLE article, God Does Not Justify Lies:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/lies.php
Also note that GOD is the One who gives repentance; you can't work up shame on your own. It's only by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and if He's not convicting you, then you need to pray about that because you SHOULD feel convicted over something the Bible clearly states.
If there's something you REALLY don't want to tell the truth about (such as to someone you don't feel you can trust with the truth), it's better to either not answer at all, evade the question, or change the subject. (If you watch TV at all [and I don't recommend that you do] you'll see politicians NOT answer questions all the time.)
Now, I'm not talking about doing this over major issues, mind you, but something like a friend asking you how you like her new dress/hat/nail polish. If you really think what she's wearing looks awful, you don't have to say it like that; you could just say you like her other one better or something like that.
Thank you for the direction to that article. I have read it, and I know very well that God doesn't justify lies (or any sin really). I was just using that as an example to make the point that sometimes for individual sins I commit, I don't necessarily feel shame. Or I may but I respond with pride or further sin. I tend to struggle the most with the "socially acceptable" sins.
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You're not alone in that. I have problems in that area, too. I don't like being wrong about anything, either, and I have often let my pride get in the way of allowing myself to be corrected, although I am working on that. I've had more than a few go-rounds with Chris on some issues because I was too proud to admit I was in the wrong.
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You're not alone in that. I have problems in that area, too. I don't like being wrong about anything, either, and I have often let my pride get in the way of allowing myself to be corrected, although I am working on that. I've had more than a few go-rounds with Chris on some issues because I was too proud to admit I was in the wrong.
Reminders that I'm not alone are comforting, so I appreciate your sharing that. Of course I'm asking the Holy Spirit to help me get rid of my prideful wickedness, for I certainly can't do that all by myself.
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Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I don't feel ever shame for telling little white lies. I'm just being honest in saying sometimes, I don't always feel shame over individual sins that are more socially acceptable. Sometimes I don't even realize I've committed them. I'm also not attempting to justify any particular sin. My point was that I don't always feel even the littlest bit of shame, let alone enough to go into hysterics (with sins like that). That's all.
Sort of like in Leviticus when God made provision for the people when they committed sins in ignorance.
You are certainly not alone when it comes to getting things wrong at times ::)
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Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that I don't feel ever shame for telling little white lies. I'm just being honest in saying sometimes, I don't always feel shame over individual sins that are more socially acceptable. Sometimes I don't even realize I've committed them. I'm also not attempting to justify any particular sin. My point was that I don't always feel even the littlest bit of shame, let alone enough to go into hysterics (with sins like that). That's all.
Sort of like in Leviticus when God made provision for the people when they committed sins in ignorance.
You are certainly not alone when it comes to getting things wrong at times ::)
I remember being fascinated by the mercy of God when reading about the provision of sacrifice for unknown sins when I read that part of Leviticus the first time.