CLE Forum
General Category => Bible Discussion => Topic started by: Reed Scott on June 03, 2019, 10:22:52 AM
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From the beginning of my Christian walk I have been post trib on the rapture. Just got introduced from that position and studies since that time in my life have deepened my conviction. However recent reading of The Revelation, along with Chris' teaching, have raised questions. In Rev. 14 we see a two pronged harvest of souls. First Christ puts in his sickle at the announcement of 'another' angel and reaps the ripe harvest of the earth.
Then another angel comes out of the temple in heaven with a sharp sickle to harvest clusters of the vine of the earth to be cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. This is the end of chapter 14 and right after, in 15, we see seven angels having the seven last plagues, and then the sea of glass and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, his image and over his mark, all praising God.
Then the seven angels are given the seven vials of the wrath of God that they seem to pour out in fairly quick succession, culminating in the great mountain leveling earthquake in which all the cities of the nations fall and the final battle.
At this point Revelation goes to what might be called an interlude or recap describing Babylon and the events of her destruction for two whole chapters.
Then immediately in chapter 19 we are shown the marriage of the lamb and his "wife made ready". Then we see the armies of heaven following Christ, clothed in fine white linen, riding white horses, following Christ as he goes to tread the winepress of the wrath of God. Seems the battle does not last very long as in what looks like short order the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.
Looks pretty obvious to me that Revelation has not a straight sequential timeline. Seems to show 'flashbacks' and parallel descriptions. Somewhat like the beginning chapters of Genesis. However Chapter 14 looks to be sequential and Christ with His sickle harvesting the earth looks like the rapture.
Perhaps this harvest is happening at the same time as the angels are pouring out their final seven vials. Revelation makes it look like the culmination of the vials, the final battle, includes the saints coming down from heaven, already with Christ. I can understand how mid-trib folks might arrive at their position. But 'mid' here is misleading it seems to me. The final vials are way past the middle of all the events of the final week ... and they all could happen in even one day.
Of course all this is food for speculation and has nothing to do with our salvation. I don't dwell on this stuff much. I just happened to recently be listening to Chris' teaching on the subject. Does anybody here care to opine or discuss?
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Reading my own post it occurs to me my last thought regarding eschatological beliefs having nothing do with our salvation could be very wrong.
It is my experience that most pre-trib adherents are also those who do not take Christ and His commandments seriously, usually believe in 'cheap grace' without repentance, do not read the Bible and generally live as the world lives. Not that there has to be causation following from pre-trib ... but there CAN be and I think often is.
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I'm going to have to do a lot more reading on this again but from what I remember reading before (can't remember where, which is why I'm going to have to go back and study some more), the first part of all these plagues (which might be what we call the Tribulation) is going to be God trying to get people's attention and get them to turn to Him. Remember, that's what He did with Israel; when they grew lazy and wicked because of all their blessings, God allowed them to be conquered and captured by their enemies and turned into slaves. When they couldn't bear the oppression anymore, they turned to God and He rescued them. This happened over and over until God finally had enough and scattered the northern kingdom of Israel altogether when they were conquered by the Assyrians. Judah lasted a while longer until they were captured by Babylon.
The two witnesses in chapter 11 will be preaching for 42 months (3 1/2 years) and then the Beast which appears in chapter 13 will be given power for another 42 months. (Maybe this is where the idea of the tribulation lasting 7 years comes from.)
The part about the first reaping reminds me of these Scriptures:
Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. 36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Luke 10 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
I don't know that Revelation is talking about the same type of thing, though.
I do believe you were correct in your first assumption, though, that eschatological beliefs really have nothing to do with salvation. It's just that the same people who have false assumptions about end times also have false doctrine about nearly everything else, including salvation. If someone has the correct idea about repentance and conversion and is genuinely saved, they're not going to go to hell because they believe in a pre-trib rapture.
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I do believe you were correct in your first assumption, though, that eschatological beliefs really have nothing to do with salvation. It's just that the same people who have false assumptions about end times also have false doctrine about nearly everything else, including salvation. If someone has the correct idea about repentance and conversion and is genuinely saved, they're not going to go to hell because they believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I think Reed is pretty much spot on with his observation. I know many, many who are still in the modern churches and nearly everyone of them that I have ever spoken to, believe in a pre-trip rapture.
If a person has turned to the Father through Faith in Jesus and been sorrowful and grieved for their sins against God, at some point they will leave this pre-trib doctrine because the Spirit of Truth will be in them teaching them the truth. They will see through this false doctrine and accept the truth about it.
I don't think new converts will miss the kingdom because of this belief but if they remain faithful, they will be shown the truth. The Holy Spirit exposes these false doctrines to us through His word.
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I do believe you were correct in your first assumption, though, that eschatological beliefs really have nothing to do with salvation. It's just that the same people who have false assumptions about end times also have false doctrine about nearly everything else, including salvation. If someone has the correct idea about repentance and conversion and is genuinely saved, they're not going to go to hell because they believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I think Reed is pretty much spot on with his observation. I know many, many who are still in the modern churches and nearly everyone of them that I have ever spoken to, believe in a pre-trip rapture.
If a person has turned to the Father through Faith in Jesus and been sorrowful and grieved for their sins against God, at some point they will leave this pre-trib doctrine because the Spirit of Truth will be in them teaching them the truth. They will see through this false doctrine and accept the truth about it.
I don't think new converts will miss the kingdom because of this belief but if they remain faithful, they will be shown the truth. The Holy Spirit exposes these false doctrines to us through His word.
Agreed. I doesn't take a theologian to see through the pre-mill leaven. It's right there plain as day in many passages of scripture. And the information on Irving, Darby and the MacDonald girl false prophet are all over the web. It blows me away that the most 'prestigious' cemeteries teach this godless tripe. Equally mysterious and mind boggling is the Reformers and nearly all protestants since Augustine refuse to admit Augustine was a Jew hating heretic and still follow his philosophy.
Most of the people in the church buildings I speak with are also amillennialists. Completely sold on a heavenly destiny for Christians. ( Don't even know what the millennium is. ). They may be half right, maybe more because heaven will come down to the new earth. There could be a 'spiritual' interpretation to this. Perhaps the Word is saying that after the thousand years the spirit world, heaven, is the final and only reality. Perhaps this shadow world will be no more and the new earth will be part and parcel of heaven.
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Actually, both heaven AND earth will be remade and become new. It is the holy city of Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to be on the earth.
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
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Actually, both heaven AND earth will be remade and become new. It is the holy city of Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to be on the earth.
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Jeanne you night owl. You're as bad as me. I want to quote Rev. 22: 3-5 and I'm going to try using Blue Letter Bible but I don't know if the forum will let me. What I was thinking about in my previous post was that when God dwells with men on whatever the new earth is ... it might as well be heaven itself. Of course this is not a belief of mine ... just pondering.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [Rev 22:3 KJV]
And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. [Rev 22:4 KJV]
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. [Rev 22:5 KJV]
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Don't forget, I'm in Australia so I'm 15 hours ahead of you (for now; it changes with DST) which means midnight for you is 3.00 in the afternoon for me. 8)
I use Bible Gateway to quote Scripture here and it works quite well except when it has apostrophes in it; then I just have to go back and change them all manually after I've pasted it in here. And sometimes the combination of punctuation before a parenthesis gives me a smiley face so I have to go in and put a space in there. Other than that, it works just fine.
I believe that we go to heaven when we die now, but will come back with Jesus when He returns to the earth. There's a lot that I don't understand about that right now because when those saints who are alive and remain when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air and will be given their glorified bodies at that time. This leaves the question of exactly who the people are that Jesus is going to reign over in the millennium. I had always thought that ALL of those who follow the beast would be killed at that time, but maybe not. Maybe those who have not yet reached the age of accountability will be the only ones left?
Anyway, it does seem that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to be the permanent kingdom of God AFTER the second battle when Satan is loosed from the pit when the thousand years are completed. Not sure how any of this is going to play out but I'm certainly looking forward to seeing it!
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I believe that we go to heaven when we die now, but will come back with Jesus when He returns to the earth.
Revelation 14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 20 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Only those who were beheaded for Christ and refused the mark of the beast reighn on earth with Christ for the thousand years.
Revelation 20 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
That second death didn't apply to those who were beheaded as mentioned and reigned on earth with Christ for the thousand years but it will apply to those who remain and are caught up with Christ in the clouds.
For those who dwell on the earth for the thousand years there will still be alive the children of the 'woman' who was protected in the wilderness from the events that were happening. Although their parents will be caught up in the air, they might not be. Who knows, they might even be cared for by angels until they are adult enough to look after themselves. Apart from the children of the 'woman', I doubt any children would be able to survive when their parents are already dead and dying from the bowls of God's wrath being poured out on the earth.
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The two witnesses in chapter 11 will be preaching for 42 months (3 1/2 years) and then the Beast which appears in chapter 13 will be given power for another 42 months. (Maybe this is where the idea of the tribulation lasting 7 years comes from.)
Are you sure that these two things aren't the same? also, this here, if you didn't know, is referring to the dark ages/the Great tribulation which lasted 1260 years (this is to assume that 360 days makes up a "biblical" year). these two events are written figuratively like most of revelations which should be obvious fact by now.
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ah, the verse that seems to confirm what I'm saying: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. -Rev. 12:6. the principle -->Num. 14:34: Ezek. 4:6.
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@Mr. Redflame Reading your comments my advise is to clear your head, reassess what you believe about the Revelation and most importantly pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.
@Reed Scott the best prophetic sequence is found in Matthew 24 although some events are probably simultaneous. The seven seals follow the sequence of Matthew 24 so there is an order for these events to occur and prophecy is easier to follow and understand once you get that. Everything in the Revelation after the seals are mentioned are detailed events of one of the seals and these also follow in an order according to the opening of the seals. It`s been my experience that people who believe the Revelation is not sequential have flaws in their interpretations of prophecy. Mind you prophecy interpretation is very challeging.
I just got done reading the article on the tribulation/rapture so it`s on my mind. The term Pre Wrath. It`s for sure a Post Trib position because the event often called the Rapture is called the 1st ressurection in the Bible. And it is the event that interupts the great tribulation, it will happen immediately before the Day of the Lord or you can consider it to be the beginning of that Day.
I like Pre Wrath as a term because in my experience Pre Trib Christians tend to be hostile toward any Post Trib position. Calling it Pre Wrath I have found creates an easy opening to begin discussing scripture. The distinction helps to avoid some of the would be attacks from Pre Trib Christians who try to use argument based on flaws in the beliefs of some Post Trib views.Saying Pre Wrath can be a time saver and keep a conversation on what I believe about the gospel instead of somebody else`s dogma.
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The two witnesses in chapter 11 will be preaching for 42 months (3 1/2 years) and then the Beast which appears in chapter 13 will be given power for another 42 months. (Maybe this is where the idea of the tribulation lasting 7 years comes from.)
Are you sure that these two things aren't the same? also, this here, if you didn't know, is referring to the dark ages/the Great tribulation which lasted 1260 years (this is to assume that 360 days makes up a "biblical" year). these two events are written figuratively like most of revelations which should be obvious fact by now.
What makes you so sure this is 'obvious fact'? Is this something you learned from the Bible or from some other teaching? We try to be very careful here of those who claim that the events of Revelation have already taken place because there are also those who claim that Jesus has already returned but is here 'incognito'. I'm not kidding! See the article on Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://creationliberty.com/articles/religionjwitness.php
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Mr. Redflame is likely a preterist. I didn`t catch it the first time I read his remarks.
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I had to go look that one up because I had no idea what a 'preterist' was. But yes, the short definition of a preterist is one who believes the events of Revelation have already happened so I believe you may be correct in your assumption of what Troy believes.
If this assumption is NOT correct, Troy, please clarify what exactly it is that you DO believe.
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A preterist? ah, I guess you could label me as such, but only a partial preterist. I do believe that the second coming and the pouring of the vials has not yet transpired.
The two witnesses in chapter 11 will be preaching for 42 months (3 1/2 years) and then the Beast which appears in chapter 13 will be given power for another 42 months. (Maybe this is where the idea of the tribulation lasting 7 years comes from.)
Are you sure that these two things aren't the same? also, this here, if you didn't know, is referring to the dark ages/the Great tribulation which lasted 1260 years (this is to assume that 360 days makes up a "biblical" year). these two events are written figuratively like most of revelations which should be obvious fact by now.
What makes you so sure this is 'obvious fact'? Is this something you learned from the Bible or from some other teaching? We try to be very careful here of those who claim that the events of Revelation have already taken place because there are also those who claim that Jesus has already returned but is here 'incognito'. I'm not kidding! See the article on Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://creationliberty.com/articles/religionjwitness.php
when I asked if you were sure that those two symbolic events weren't speaking of the same tribulation; I was just kinda putting out some food for thought. but, yeah, I got some pieces of understanding of the tribulation from an Adventist (I myself never was one) who covered on prophecy quite extensively. If you'd like to see the prophetic timeline that he put together for better understanding of my on beliefs, then I can give a link. btw, he was the one that convinced me mostly that revelations was mostly symbolic. I don't believe everything he puts on his blog seeing as that a lot of his teachings are false (likely because of the fact that he's unsaved).
Also, to sort of back up the line of reasoning that I made about the numbers I posted. If one was to consider the times of Noah in which he entered the ark, and the windows of heaven were opened which was on the 17th day of the 2nd month, and the time the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat on the 17th day of the 7th month, then one can deduce from the dates given that the one of the earliest (if not the earliest) calendars of those times had 360 days for a year. And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days (5 months) the waters were abated. -Gen. 8:3 kjv.
sorry bout my slow writing.
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The people that say that Jesus Christ returns but in a silent fashion. If you're reading this please understand that a verse(s) in the bible utterly destroys that way of thinking. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. -Rev. 1:7.
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Yeah, be very careful about anything Adventists teach. That's why I pointed you to the teaching on JWs; they are an offshoot of the Adventist movement. They have the right idea about holidays, but that's about it.
I haven't gone back to verify that Rome persecuted Christians for 1260 years; it didn't start with the Catholic Church though, because Nero also persecuted Christians long before Constantine came on the scene. Remember, he burned almost the entire city and blamed the fire on the Christians.
Like I said, I'd have to go back and check the math for myself, but it's 4.00 in the morning here and I just woke up. I was reading the forum here and fell asleep with the computer in my lap! So I'm going back to sleep for a while...
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Ah, yes, sleep. I haven't been getting enough of that these past two days. don't stress though about the math, in truth it's very simple. rest up :)