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General Category => Bible Discussion => Topic started by: Jeanne on April 11, 2018, 09:22:44 PM

Title: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Jeanne on April 11, 2018, 09:22:44 PM
I'm reading my chronological Bible which has parallel accounts of the same events next to each other and I noticed some discrepancies between 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21.

I went and looked at the articles on the website that deal with contradictions and one of these articles dealt with the length of the famine; however, there are several more discrepancies than just that one.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


Okay, this one isn't too bad. Did God use Satan to move David to take a census? But there's more...

2 Samuel 24:9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand (1,100,000) men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand (470,000) men that drew sword.


This one is a bit harder to reconcile, but let's continue...

2 Samuel 24:12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

1 Chronicles 21:10 Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 11 So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee 12 either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel.


This is the one that was dealt with on the website:
http://creationliberty.com/articles/confamine.php (http://creationliberty.com/articles/confamine.php)

But we're not done yet...

The Lord commanded David to build an altar on the threshingfloor of a Jebusite (his name changes between these two accounts, but that's not unusual in many places in the Bible). The man offered David his threshingfloor, the threshing instruments as wood for the altar and the oxen for the sacrifice. David refused to offer anything that didn't cost him anything, though, so he insisted on buying all of this.

2 Samuel 24:24 24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.

1 Chronicles 21:24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the Lord, nor offer burnt offerings without cost. 25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.


One contradiction that Chris addressed I can deal with, but when there are so many more in these accounts, I have a hard time with. I know the Bible cannot lie but I don't know how to reconcile these two accounts.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Severius Brandusa on April 12, 2018, 11:16:04 AM
I have also seen these apparent contradictions and I'd lie if I said that it didn't trouble me when I discovered them. I even had made a list of each verse and its correlating verse of every supposed miscopy in the King James Bible. I will say this: the new age "bibles" claim that they have corrected these mistakes, which causes some to lower their guard against the per-versions, but their final result is doctrinal changes. The King James Bible was translated exactly and correctly to what the original manuscripts had written upon them. Meaning that if they would try to correct what they saw as a contradiction in the originals, they would have been deceitful in their work. If you notice, these discrepancies always involve numbers (and usually large numbers) and seem to only occur between 2 Samuel and 2 Chronicles which are known as the historical book because they involved the kings of Israel and Judah. What I think happened is that the records were written by scribes which could have had a different view in the matter and took certain things into account that the other scribe did not. Not to say they were in opposition to eachother's record, but that they counted other things into their numbering.

In both accounts of the threshing floor of Onan, there is a difference in the whole of what is being purchased for emphasis. One mentions just the threshing floor and the oxen, while the other menton the place (which I would say meant the entire land on which the threshing floor rested on).

When it comes to David being provoked, this shows that while it was Satan who did the actual tempting of David, it is actually the LORD God who have providence and power over all and does whatsoever pleases Him. I believe David's heart became filled with pride, and so that fall came after his pride. There is another instance in which the LORD God does this:

1 Kings 22:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

*And the correlating account*
2 Chronicles 18:19-22
19 And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.
---

There are a number of these seeming contradictions which can be solved if read carefully, but I do understand that there are some which seem like completely contrasting statements and cannot be brushed off as a mere misunderstanding of the actual reading of the print.

Therefore, I will say what I have also had to say to myself: Does the exact number of who went into battle matter to our understanding of the character of the LORD God? Does our faith in Him rest on matching accounts of the numbering of the armies of Israel long ago, or whether it was 3 or 7 years of famine in an ancient time? Is there any contradiction concerning the plain Law of God or any discrepancy in His Doctrine? Will one give up what matters for that which matters not? Or will one exchange the honest truth for a lie which 'got the numbers right'? In fact, these contradictions (unlike other contradictions) help in a certain way, and you might wonder, how? It attests to the fact that these accounts and instances actually occurred in history! Some use these discrepancies to discredit the Bible but these can actually be used to prove that the history is correct and factual. If two accounts of the same thing are identical with exact wording, there is usually some suspicion concerning a conspiracy to try to prove that something happened. However, when there are two testimonies accounting for the same situation albeit with minor differences, it strengthens the possibility that the account occurred because of what is emphasized in the accounts.

Did you know this occurred in the Gospels as well?

Matthew 21:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

*And the verse it is being compared to*
Mark 11:14
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

*Now forward to verse 19*

19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

*But I think what Jesus Christ says in the very next verse is something that we all need to hear from Him whenever we have doubt concerning His Word. It fits this situation we are having perfectly.*

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
---
I cannot say that I know the matter of these things entirely, but what I do know is that there is none other than the LORD GOD Jesus Christ. I will go to my death having faith in Him than to turn back to the lusts that were in my life. I believe in His Testimony and I believe He is the Testimony. I've realized that when one stops believing with repentance in Jesus Christ, they become unhinged and begin to live a life full of pleasures, having no regard for what is right anymore. It's also interesting to note that although the religious fables of the world are teeming with obvious contradictions, it doesnt seem to move the adherents to belief in the Truth, but when we [I as a sinful person] see a handful of seeming minor discrepancies in the glorious Book of the LORD, our faith in Him becomes shaken. Don't let this overtake you. God bless you, Jeanne. I pray that the Lord comforts you concerning this.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: anvilhauler on April 12, 2018, 04:17:44 PM
I started looking in to this quite a number of years ago because I also saw the differences between 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings and what was written in 1 & 2 Chronicles.  The only answers I could come up with was that the writer was intentionally painting a different picture of the way things were before being taken in to captivity.  The problem was never with the translators of the King James Bible.

I'm reading 1 & 2 Chronicles at the moment and these are the two books that always bog me down the most and I find I really don't like reading them because of the discrepancies.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Jeanne on April 12, 2018, 07:23:41 PM
Thank you, Severius, your explanation makes perfect sense. These discrepancies ARE usually found when recording numbers. I never really thought about the discrepancies actually providing evidence of historical fact but you're right. I've never doubted the accuracy of the Bible myself, or allowed these contradictions to lessen my faith in God but it just seems to be 'giving ammunition to the enemy' if you will. Your perspective eliminates even that element, however.

Kevin, I don't know that the writers of Chronicles even made the mistakes intentionally if, indeed, that's where the problem really is. I don't know about you, but to me, 600 shekels of gold seems a much more fair price to pay for the threshingfloor, tools and oxen than 50 shekels of silver. It's entirely possible that different historians at different times simply got the numbers wrong or that they got mixed up when compiling different documents. They may have even been written down from oral history, which would make it even more impressive that these accounts are nearly word for word the same except for numbers and a few names.

We'll never know, of course, what the real story is here, but Severius is right in that these minor details in no way affect the doctrine being taught.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: anvilhauler on April 13, 2018, 07:14:46 AM
Something has happened and I'm able to log in to the forum from home again  :)

2 Timothy 3 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Because all scripture is inspired of God then He has intentionally allowed these discrepancies to be in His word.  He could have prompted the writers to be exactly correct in their accounts of events but He chose not to.

An interesting comparison:
John 14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I still find it incredibly difficult reading when having that feeling that I have just read all of this and now I'm reading it again.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Severius Brandusa on April 14, 2018, 02:53:42 PM
Check this site out:

http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/forty-and-two-years-old-or-twenty-two-years-old-in-2-chronicles-222
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Jeanne on April 15, 2018, 02:15:41 AM
Wow, that's very interesting! It does give a reasonable explanation but I wonder how accurate it is. There seems to be a lot of speculation going on there. I admit it makes sense, however.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Severius Brandusa on April 21, 2018, 11:02:51 AM
Yeah, it's one of those things we might never get an actual answer to while we are on this earth. However, I can say that after having done quite a bit of personal study into the major religions of the world by reading their actual sources: their books, records, and doctrine cannot attain to the majesty that is the written Word of God. The facets of those religions are caused by their "scriptures" being subject to man's interpretarion and understanding, while the Bible, with authority, interprets itself. Therefore, any sect or denomination of supposed "Christianity" is, in itself, a heresy against the doctrine of LORD God Jesus Christ. They must lie against the Bible to consider their interpretations valid while other religions have such ambiguous 'spiritual' sources that any can claim any sort of interpretation they want to due that foundation being formed upon the sand. I will put my trust in the LORD God of Israel because He is the only Living God and the only God who has saved me from my sin by His blood sacrifice. I will die with faith in Him because of the grace that He has showed me. There is no God but He.
Title: Re: Contradictions Between 2 Samuel 24 & 1 Chronicles 21
Post by: Masha on April 21, 2018, 11:48:32 AM
1 Cor 13: 9, For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10, But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.4
    11, When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought5 as a child: but when I became a man, I put away6 childish things.
    12, For now we see through a glass, darkly;7 but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

After years of reading Gods Word I still find a bunch of stuff in the Bible that I do not understand. And many times after studying and listening to other's understanding of the matter I do understand more, but sometime I do not.

I might just be a very limited person, but I am certainly still in the dark about things. I praise God my time is very limited nowadays, and I try to select the things I study so that they help me, strengthen me and get me closer to God. All the things that I cannot totally search out and thus understand I shun nowadays, simply because I lack time and energy to get to the bottom.

When I was saved I remember reading the Bible (after praying) gave me so much answers, insight, understanding!! Now I dont experience that every day, but I still surely feel that I am growing in Christ. And that I gain understanding each time I read:-) even if that means sometimes I understand I don't understand.....